Croydon Tram Crash

[BestWestern]

Possibly a slight exaggeration but if it really was that bad they should have reported it.

Surely if it were accurate - 40mph on a 12mph curve - today's incident would have already happened?!

 

[Antman]

And has been pointed out to you numerous times, it was covered extensively by the broadcast media. The BBC News Channel (which was running a special US Election Programme, the biggest global news story of the week) is not 'the broadcast media'.

The BBC have published their guidelines for journalists when 'breaking news', which prioritises Radio (specifically 5 Live, for a major national story) over the TV News Channel.

But for five hours after the incident, there was no suggestion from the emergency services of any fatalities and (as others have noted) the tram didn't look wrecked. So at that time, the story did not seem a big one worthy of national coverage - the worst people expected was perhaps a few walking wounded. It did, however, receive extensive coverage in the London media (notably BBC Radio London and LBC London News) and on the BBC website (there was a live update page from BBC London from 7am).

Moral of the story is, don't watch TV news channels for breaking news stories on a day with a major global news story - they are always going to stick with that story. If you want breaking news, you'll always get it faster on the radio and/or social media.

I heard Nigel Harris on BBC news and he clearly thought that the tram had come from Croydon, ie down the slope:roll:
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Surely if it were accurate - 40mph on a 12mph curve - today's incident would have already happened?!

Yes, you would have thought so.

 

[transmanche]

Take a look at the RAIB report: https://www.gov.uk/raib-reports/collision-between-two-trams-at-shalesmoor

Interesting reading. For those who are unable to access PDFs, the relevant learning point identified by the RAIB is

This accident demonstrates that the performance of friction-type magnetic track brakes can be adversely affected by rail head contamination in a similar way to the friction brakes on the wheels. Tram drivers should therefore adopt a defensive driving style in low adhesion conditions that does not place undue emphasis on the added braking effort provided by the track brakes.

This learning point was based on tests undertaken by the RAIB:

In the tests the stopping distance was found to increase from around 12 metres on dry uncontaminated rail to around 35 metres in the simulated low adhesion conditions, when using the full service brake. When the hazard [i.e. magnetic] brake was used (and sanding was automatically activated), the braking distance was found to increase from around 8 metres to around 19 metres.

 

[bramling]

There are far more road accidents ascribed to drivers (both car and lorry) falling asleep during hours of darkness than during daylight hours: as BTP are mentioning the possibility of the driver falling asleep, I think it might be pertinent. The other point I was perhaps obliquely making is that tram driving on a system like Croydon's with street running on every journey is imo much more akin to driving a bus than a train, though it has elements of the latter.

Assuming the tram was fitted with some kind of data recorder (I'd say it's pretty certain that it would be), it shouldn't be too long before those investigating will know more. The data recorder should show what actions the driver took. Obviously one hopes the data recorder was in working order at the time.

 

[All Line Rover]

The BBC have published their guidelines for journalists when 'breaking news', which prioritises Radio (specifically 5 Live, for a major national story) over the TV News Channel.

That is not what the guidelines say on their face, but if you have some enlightened view I suggest you create a new thread to discuss this.

 

[transmanche]

Assuming the tram was fitted with some kind of data recorder (I'd say it's pretty certain that it would be), it shouldn't be too long before those investigating will know more.

Yes they are, as previously noted the trams are equipped with forward-facing CCTV and an On-Tram Data Recorder which "records a number of parameters including the vehicle speed, and the driver’s operation of the power and brake controls and the warning bell and horn".

 

[bramling]

The tram must have slid on it's side for some distance and the casualties could have been a lot higher. As bad as it is it could have been a lot worse, an hour or two later and the tram would have been packed and thank goodness there wasn't a tram coming the other way at the time. Small mercies.

Tragically, a vehicle sliding at speed on its side is one scenario where the passengers are particularly vulnerable. Passengers would be vulnerable to external objects entering the vehicle (track components and OHLE are particular hazards), as well as the obvious risk of being ejected from the protection of the vehicle body. Basically, in this sort of situation, a lot is down to luck of positioning - if the glass breaks adjacent to where you are located then you are highly vulnerable.

A similar scenario occurred in the Lockington level crossing derailment in the 1980s. In that instance, a 1st-generation DMU derailed violently at speed, one of the vehicles overturned and slid along the ground, resulting in a high level of fatalities/injuries. Like today's tragic accident, the vehicle structures survived the accident pretty much intact, yet the death/injury toll was high. I'd suggest vulnerability increases if the vehicle is more crowded, as people being thrown about inside the vehicle increase the likelihood of people being ejected outside the vehicle. All in all a terrible scenario to be involved in.

 

[transmanche]

That is not what the guidelines say on their face

Er, yes they do!

This is what the guidelines say:

For breaking news [...] outlets are serviced according to a list of priorities. For domestic news, the correspondent first records a summary - a “generic minute” - for use by all outlets and then priority is given firstly to Radio 5 Live, then BBC News and decisions thereafter are taken according to which programmes are on air.

Like I said, Radio 5 Live is the priority over the TV channel.

 

[mirodo]

The aforementioned post from Facebook has now been picked up and reported on by at least one national newspaper.

 

[swt class 450]

Thoughts with everyone involved.

Its just a suggestion but could the speedometer on the tram have been broken which caused the driver to go too fast? I imagine that this incident will lead to increased safety systems being installed on trams soon?

Coincidentally 2551 was the last tram that i went on (i went on it last week).

 

[Phil.]

At this moment in time considering the number of people that have passed away in this tragic incident, can we just focus on the incident, the families and the latest developments in this story.

A tram in the Croydon area has been involved in a fatal accident.

Everything everyone on this forum states about the cause is pure speculation and conjecture.

The B.B.C. and other news outlets reported the incident. What does everyone want?

 

[All Line Rover]

Er, yes they do!

This is what the guidelines say: [For breaking news [...] outlets are serviced according to a list of priorities. For domestic news, the correspondent first records a summary - a “generic minute” - for use by all outlets and then priority is given firstly to Radio 5 Live, then BBC News and decisions thereafter are taken according to which programmes are on air.]

Like I said, Radio 5 Live is the priority over the TV channel.

It's a pity you feel the need to sidetrack this thread with such triviality.

However, for the sake of completeness, you claim that not mentioning this incident on the BBC News Channel until after 12 noon, and not providing any meaningful analysis until after 6pm, while at the same time have rolling US election coverage that repeats every hour (the same circa. 10 minute report was being repeated every hour) is in accordance with the guidelines.

First, the prioritisation guidelines you quote (and it would be helpful to provide a link) apply "where only a single correspondent is available". Even if all BBC correspondents bar one had flocked to the US, it is not correct to interpret the guidelines as stating that Radio 5 Live should cover the story and the BBC News channel can wait until 'whenever'. The guidelines state that the "only available correspondent", after having covered the story for Radio 5 Live, should then cover the story for the BBC News Channel. You state yourself (post #241) that this incident was not only being reported by Radio 5 Live, but also by BBC Radio London, and that "there was a live update page from [the] BBC London [website] from 7am". The guidelines are therefore not in point.

In future it would be good if you could properly read the materials you quote and not try to generate futile arguments.

 

[transmanche]

Its just a suggestion but could the speedometer on the tram have been broken which caused the driver to go too fast?

It's unlikely to be a major factor.

The driver would/should have known about the 20km/h restriction on the curve. That's a significantly slower speed than the maximum permitted speed of 80km/h before the restriction.

 

[bnm]

Yawn... have you finished now? Good.

Your flawed understanding of BBC guidelines is comprehensively debunked and that's your response?

A better person would say, "Sorry, I got it wrong."

 

[transmanche]

Your flawed understanding of BBC guidelines us comprehensively debunked and that's your response?

What was flawed about them?

Firstly, I didn't make the claims that All Line Rover ascribed to me. Secondly I noted that (until 11am when fatalities were first mentioned) it's doubtful it would have been a story for the national news on any day. I did note that the story was extensively covered on the BBC's regional news station for London, and the BBC's News website. The BBC News Channel was running a special programme (not their normal rolling news service) so it would have to be a pretty major story for them to break away from that. All Line Rover misunderstands the meaning of the phrase "where only a single correspondent is available". That obviously means where only one correspondent is on-scene, not that all the other correspondents are in the US. Obviously, the correspondent has to be on the scene in order to provide a relevant report. So the reporter on-scene, most likely a BBC Radio London reporter, would first record that 'generic minute' then offer to go live on Radio 5 Live which has the priority over the TV channel. (And TV channels hate doing news stories without pictures, so would be reluctant to go on-air without it being a massive story.)

You can argue the toss over the time that the TV news producer realised that importance of the story. But as I said earlier, it would have to be a pretty big story to break away from the biggest global news story of the week - if not the month. And until lunchtime it really wasn't clear how big the story was.

As it was, BBC Radio London covered the story in the manner you might expect for a big regional news story and they did displace the US election as the main stoiry on their bulletins.


Anyway, to get back on topic, I found this useful track layout diagram which might help those not familiar with the layout of the area. It's quite old (from 2000) from the unofficial croydon-tramlink.co.uk website - but I believe the maintainer of that website tragically died a few years ago in a car crash.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Thoughts with everyone involved.

Its just a suggestion but could the speedometer on the tram have been broken which caused the driver to go too fast? I imagine that this incident will lead to increased safety systems being installed on trams soon?

It could be down to a number of things...What can be stated as fact is the speed limit upon leaving Lloyd Park is 70km/h (43mph), dropping to 20km/h (12mph) for the curve to join the alignment of the Woodside & South Croydon Joint Railway, then increasing to 80km/h (50mph) for a little over a kilometre as it runs through Coombe Road, Parkside and Woodside Tunnels. It then drops right down to 20km/h again at the start of the curve heading towards Sandilands, increasing to 25km/h (15mph) after clearing the junction with the Elmers End/Beckenham Junction route for the final run into Sandilands.

Forward view on Youtube: https://youtu.be/lhuogCAh6Pg?t=11m57s - Link takes you to the point just before departure from Lloyd Park. Start to stop time is about 3 minutes.

Looking at the video, the driver in that case started braking for the curve about half way through Woodside Tunnel due to the need to shed 60km/h (37mph).

 

[125Forever]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-37932744 Driver being held by Police.

 

[amcluesent]

It's incredible is this day and age that the lives of dozens relies on an individual remaining alert at all times; we've had full automation on the DLR for years and years!

It seem all too likely that investigation of all the trams data logs will show over-speeding had become habituated and accepted

 

[Shimbleshanks]

The diagram below (archived from the Unofficial Tramlink site) shows that the permitted speed through the tunnels is 80km/h (50 mph):

I believe the source to be reliable but I'm not 100% certain of that. This diagram will not represent any changes made post circa 2006.

One thing that has always puzzled me about the tram and light rail systems that have been built in the past 30 years or so is why so many of them have such tight curves interspersed between (relatively) fast sections of line.

In the case of the junction where this accident occurred, was it is necessary to build it with an almost a 90 degree turn? A heavy rail system would have had a much gentler curve at a junction like that. Presumably it was done to save initial first cost and possibly reduce the land-take but it's a design flaw that leads to increased costs forever afterwards and, as in this case, the potential for nasty accidents.

It's not just a safety issue - acceleration followed by sharp braking increases the energy bill, wear and tear on vehicles and drivers and pushes up maintenance costs.

Even things like crossovers and turnouts where double lines become single seem to me to be built to 20mph spec when 40mph ones would have been used for a little extra first cost.

The heavy rail industry learned the lessons of accidents like Morpeth where a severe speed restriction occurs in the middle of a fast section of line, by installing first AWS and eventually TPWS. Given that these light rail systems have been built with dozens of 'mini-Morpeths' I find it incredible that most don't seem to have the equivalent of AWS, let alone TPWS.

 

[Antman]

One thing that has always puzzled me about the tram and light rail systems that have been built in the past 30 years or so is why so many of them have such tight curves interspersed between (relatively) fast sections of line.

In the case of the junction where this accident occurred, was it is necessary to build it with an almost a 90 degree turn? A heavy rail system would have had a much gentler curve at a junction like that. Presumably it was done to save initial first cost and possibly reduce the land-take but it's a design flaw that leads to increased costs forever afterwards and, as in this case, the potential for nasty accidents.

It's not just a safety issue - acceleration followed by sharp braking increases the energy bill, wear and tear on vehicles and drivers and pushes up maintenance costs.

Even things like crossovers and turnouts where double lines become single seem to me to be built to 20mph spec when 40mph ones would have been used for a little extra first cost.

The heavy rail industry learned the lessons of accidents like Morpeth where a severe speed restriction occurs in the middle of a fast section of line, by installing first AWS and eventually TPWS. Given that these light rail systems have been built with dozens of 'mini-Morpeths' I find it incredible that most don't seem to have the equivalent of AWS, let alone TPWS.

Being able to negotiate tight corners is seen as an advantage of light rail and they feature on many systems.

In the accident I don't really see how it could have been built any other way, indeed there is another sharp curve at the other end of the tunnel.

 

[infobleep]

I've put my complaint in to BBC Newswatch re the lack of coverage.

I was considering doing the same. They talk about news coverage views on a Friday night I think. There is definitely a 15 minute slot at some point for it on the News Channel.

Someone else I spoke to thought it was disgusting that they didn't mention it for so long.

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I don't think we can equate a tram crash to the head of state dying.

Ultimately, unusual as they are, a tram crash is not as sexy or visually gratifying as a train crash, regardless of the number of deaths.

I wasn't trying to compare it directly but just pointing out there are things that would stop the news coverage and whilst this sint a massive stop we've thing on every channel, it's big enough to change the news on a news channel. Does anyone disagree with me on this?

I'm sure news about foreign public transport deaths has appeared more quickly on the BBC News Channel than this did. Not often I'd say they are reporting the foreign news better than our own.

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[vrbarreto]

I live just of Addiscombe Road and it was raining very heavily yesterday morning.. Went to walk to the bus stop and saw a lot of Ambulances and Unmarked police cars going up the road.. Thought something had happened and there were no buses so I thought I'd walk up to Sandilands and catch a tram to East Croydon from there. as I got to near the tram line I was told by a policeman to go down a side road... Only found out about the accident later.. Terrible.. My daughter's nursery backs right onto the tram line where it happened and the tram was pointing right at it. They evacuated the children from the nursery about 3.15pm yesterday as they wanted to move some of the bodies. They're doing the same again today so I've been told.

I don't know if the speed restriction on the Addiscombe branch is 12mph as well but it never feels that slow when the tram takes the bend..

Awful tragedy.. Also there was a comment earler on about the tram line terminating at New Addington and as it was a working class area, safety was not a really a priority.. The same trams serve the relatively affluent areas of Wimbledon and Bromley!

I then attempted to try and get to Luton Airport but that's another story....

 

[infobleep]

You do realise that the BBC is more than just television?

The BBC has given lots of coverage to the incident. Just that it hasn't featured prominently on the BBC News Channel doesn't mean it has been ignored - as it's been featured prominently on the website and on regional radio. The BBC News Channel has obviously been focusing on the major global news story.

In addition to this, the tram crash didn't appear to be a major incident for quite some time. It was five hours after the crash before any official (BTP) sources hinted that there were fatalities. Until then, there was very little to report - certainly not enough to warrant interrupting the planned special programme on the BBC News Channel.

On another news day they would have been down there much sooner even with nothing to go on. This suggests that usually they over cover events and maybe should stop doing so.

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[AlterEgo]

I wasn't trying to compare it directly but just pointing out there are things that would stop the news coverage and whilst this sint a massive stop we've thing on every channel, it's big enough to change the news on a news channel. Does anyone disagree with me on this?

It's a tram crash. It looked entirely innocuous when it first occurred. I was first alerted to the derailment by a BBC app notification at around 0630.

It wasn't for many hours afterwards that it became clear people were dying and suffering life-changing injuries. I was completely shocked to hear of deaths, having seen the pictures of the derailment in the morning.

I think people being hard on the BBC are missing the point.

Complain if it'll make you feel better though. Sounds a lot like virtue signalling by some people to me.

 

[Antman]

I live just of Addiscombe Road and it was raining very heavily yesterday morning.. Went to walk to the bus stop and saw a lot of Ambulances and Unmarked police cars going up the road.. Thought something had happened and there were no buses so I thought I'd walk up to Sandilands and catch a tram to East Croydon from there. as I got to near the tram line I was told by a policeman to go down a side road... Only found out about the accident later.. Terrible.. My daughter's nursery backs right onto the tram line where it happened and the tram was pointing right at it. They evacuated the children from the nursery about 3.15pm yesterday as they wanted to move some of the bodies. They're doing the same again today so I've been told.

I don't know if the speed restriction on the Addiscombe branch is 12mph as well but it never feels that slow when the tram takes the bend..

Awful tragedy.. Also there was a comment earler on about the tram line terminating at New Addington and as it was a working class area, safety was not a really a priority.. The same trams serve the relatively affluent areas of Wimbledon and Bromley!

I then attempted to try and get to Luton Airport but that's another story....

Did somebody really suggest that because New Addington is a working class area safety shouldn't be a priority? I can't believe anybody would say such a thing.

The tram serves Beckenham not Bromley.

I've traversed that junction numerous times and never felt in the least bit unsafe.

 

[Shimbleshanks]

Being able to negotiate tight corners is seen as an advantage of light rail and they feature on many systems.

In the accident I don't really see how it could have been built any other way, indeed there is another sharp curve at the other end of the tunnel.

But just because you can do something doesn't necessarily mean that you should. I appreciate that there are advantages in 90-degree bends for on-street sections (where speed is going to be restricted anyway) but on the faster open country sections surely something more akin to heavy rail alignment would be appropriate to allow trams to maintain 40-50mph without constant deceleration and acceleration. I'm still convinced that many speed restrictions could have been planned out of light rail systems (though it probably is too late to do much about it now).

 

[vrbarreto]

Did somebody really suggest that because New Addington is a working class area safety shouldn't be a priority? I can't believe anybody would say such a thing.

The tram serves Beckenham not Bromley.

I've traversed that junction numerous times and never felt in the least bit unsafe.

Ok Beckenham Junction(which is in Bromley).. There was a post on one of the first 6 or 7 pages which suggested that.

I've never felt unsafe but did notice the very sharp bend and also that it feels faster than 12mph. It also makes a heck of a noise...

My first thoughts yesterday was that perhaps another idiot had gone through a red light and hit a tram again.

 

[Altfish]

I think people being hard on the BBC are missing the point.

It was not just the BBC, however I was disappointed with their 6:00 News; They gave us 30-minutes of the US Election then a brief mention of the tram crash at about 6:35. By that time we knew there were at least 7 dead and many injured.

 

[infobleep]

What anyone would expect to see when a serious rail incident occurs. Not rolling footage of the scene, but simply an acknowledgement that the incident has occurred, a brief summary of the facts, and a telephone number that people with concerns can contact. This was successfully managed in a mere 3 minutes on the domestic BBC News at Six news this evening (after 33 minutes of US election coverage - perhaps those 3 minutes could have been moved to an earlier part of the programme). The BBC had plenty of opportunities earlier today to set aside 3 minutes to cover the story.

I agree with you totally.

And as I yesterday my thoughts go out to all those involved.

On a general point, if someone like a driver gets arrested, whilst the police determine what happened, do they get councilling?

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[edwin_m]

But just because you can do something doesn't necessarily mean that you should. I appreciate that there are advantages in 90-degree bends for on-street sections (where speed is going to be restricted anyway) but on the faster open country sections surely something more akin to heavy rail alignment would be appropriate to allow trams to maintain 40-50mph without constant deceleration and acceleration. I'm still convinced that many speed restrictions could have been planned out of light rail systems (though it probably is too late to do much about it now).

This is a fairly confined spot. As mentioned up-thread the tramline transfers from Addiscombe Road, splits into two branches and one goes each way along the former railway line. Just to the north is the bridge under Addiscombe Road and just to the south is the tunnel, so the tracks had to turn 90 degrees in the limited space in between resulting in some tight curves. At least one of these features would have had to be demolished to create a more gentle turn, and there would still be the hazards of the junction itself and the pedestrian crossings at the tramstop.

There are many sections of Croydon and other tramways, particularly those on former railways, where system maximum speeds (typically 70-80km/h) are possible. However the frequent stops mean it is uncommon to sustain top speed for more than a minute or so even on an ideal alignment.

The principle of driving on sight, combined with several braking systems that are normally very effective, have resulted to date in a very safe mode of transport - people are hit by trams from time to time and this can be nasty but I suspect a bus operator with similar vehicle mileage would have a similar rate of accidents.

However this accident may on its own be enough to suggest that some sort of enforcement is reasonably practicable where a long fast off-street section leads directly into a tight curve. A similar one at Werneth on Metrolink has, I believe, a large black and white chevron sign as used on roundabouts and tight bends on roads. No tramway has any sort of speed enforcement system but it wouldn't be particularly difficult to add something to monitor these high-risk speed transitions (possibly GPS-based rather than using trackside hardware like TPWS).