Current events in Afghanistan

[Bantamzen]

Is there any reason to think that the Islamic world as represented by Iran, Pakistan, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, etc (or many of their followers in the diaspora) would not in inclination be just as primitive and misogynistic as the Taliban? The scholarly Islam of the Middle Ages that preserved and passed on so much classical knowledge to us and was so much at the leading edge in the sciences of the day (and was responsible for some glorious architecture) does not seem to have left many traces today.

Oh there is no doubt that there are many who would lean towards how the Taliban are likely to operate. But even in those countries, there are small signs that pushback on some of the most oppressive, misogynistic ways that are deeply engrained amongst those who currently lead them. Nowhere near enough of course, but their is still hope that some momentum is being gained.

 

[tommy2215]

Given how little resistance the Taliban faced when retaking Afghanistan it would be very surprising if there was some kind of uprising while they are power. Even on the unlikely situation there was a rebellion, the Taliban would almost certainly answer it with violence, similar to Myanmar. Many, many Afghans fully support this new regime. People in the West need to realise that, rightly or wrongly, not everyone in the world shares the views of people in the West.

 

[Trackman]

Information has come through from a meeting with British defence and security officials at a secret meeting in Moscow in 2001 (via Sky News).

One person who was at the meeting recalled: "When the Russians stopped laughing they told us: 'You will make the same bad choice we did, you will go in, you will lose, many of you will die and then you'll be forced to retreat, which will be good for us. How can we help?'"

Makes me think of that scene in 'Team America' (I think) where the President rings the Kremlin as says he is going to invade Afghanistan and the Russians all start rolling about laughing.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Information has come through from a meeting with British defence and security officials at a secret meeting in Moscow in 2001 (via Sky News).

Makes me think of that scene in 'Team America' (I think) where the President rings the Kremlin as says he is going to invade Afghanistan and the Russians all start rolling about laughing.

How much more would they have laughed if they'd known what the actual sequence of events would be: That, far from being forced out, we'd have a very hard fought war over some years, for all practical purposes win, establish a rather corrupt but nevertheless somewhat democratic Government that generally respected human rights, get stability subject only to a a continuing need for Western troops to maintain that stability - and then a few years later get cold feet and suddenly abandon everything.

 

[najaB]

How much more would they have laughed if they'd known what the actual sequence of events would be: That, far from being forced out, we'd have a very hard fought war over some years, for all practical purposes win, establish a rather corrupt but nevertheless somewhat democratic Government that generally respected human rights, get stability subject only to a a continuing need for Western troops to maintain that stability - and then a few years later get cold feet and suddenly abandon everything.

I lay blame for this on the previous US Administration and their lack of a clear strategy. They tried to negotiate with the Taliban after saying that they wouldn't, then announced a withdrawal of the troops without a clear plan for what would happen afterwards. Don't forget that this withdrawal was originally supposed to have been completed by May.

The Biden administration has to take the blame for the chaotic final days though, they should have done more to evacuate the most vulnerable people - e.g. the interpreters - in the extra few months they managed to delay the withdrawal by.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I lay blame for this on the previous US Administration and their lack of a clear strategy. They tried to negotiate with the Taliban after saying that they wouldn't, then announced a withdrawal of the troops without a clear plan for what would happen afterwards. Don't forget that this withdrawal was originally supposed to have been completed by May.

The Biden administration has to take the blame for the chaotic final days though, they should have done more to evacuate the most vulnerable people - e.g. the interpreters - in the extra few months they managed to delay the withdrawal by.

The worst possible diplomatic action a government can ever take is to be seen to have negotiated with a terrorist organisation. Regardless of how Taliban rule in Afghanistan turns out this time, I fear the long term damage that Trump’s ill thought-out ‘strategy’ will have caused to Western security in general, as he will have only emboldened enemies of the West and encouraged extremists to take up arms. That will affect the UK as much as any other country, probably more so than most.

 

[Butts]

I lay blame for this on the previous US Administration and their lack of a clear strategy. They tried to negotiate with the Taliban after saying that they wouldn't, then announced a withdrawal of the troops without a clear plan for what would happen afterwards. Don't forget that this withdrawal was originally supposed to have been completed by May.

The Biden administration has to take the blame for the chaotic final days though, they should have done more to evacuate the most vulnerable people - e.g. the interpreters - in the extra few months they managed to delay the withdrawal by.

How much blame do you attach to Pakistan that has surprisingly not featured anywhere within this thread ?

Would the Taliban have been able to regroup/operate without their acquiescence and co-operation albeit covertly to a great degree.

 

[birchesgreen]

I lay blame for this on the previous US Administration and their lack of a clear strategy. They tried to negotiate with the Taliban after saying that they wouldn't, then announced a withdrawal of the troops without a clear plan for what would happen afterwards. Don't forget that this withdrawal was originally supposed to have been completed by May.

The Biden administration has to take the blame for the chaotic final days though, they should have done more to evacuate the most vulnerable people - e.g. the interpreters - in the extra few months they managed to delay the withdrawal by.

Lets face it NO ONE expected the Afghan regime to collapse in days. I think most expected the Taliban to take over eventually but even last week analysts were expecting Kabul to hold out for weeks or months and i doubt many people would have disagreed with that.

 

[The Ham]

Oh there is no doubt that there are many who would lean towards how the Taliban are likely to operate. But even in those countries, there are small signs that pushback on some of the most oppressive, misogynistic ways that are deeply engrained amongst those who currently lead them. Nowhere near enough of course, but their is still hope that some momentum is being gained.

It will take time to confirm, however it does appear that Taliban 2021 appear to be softer in regards to enacting some of the harsher rules.

For instance there's a whole generation of women who have been educated and many have jobs, which has lead to a (current) softening on the stance of girls education and women in public (i.e. they don't have to have a man with them).

If those last, or if they are just a way of getting more onside to begin with is what we'll not know for a while yet.

 

[Scotrail314209]

It will take time to confirm, however it does appear that Taliban 2021 appear to be softer in regards to enacting some of the harsher rules.

For instance there's a whole generation of women who have been educated and many have jobs, which has lead to a (current) softening on the stance of girls education and women in public (i.e. they don't have to have a man with them).

If those last, or if they are just a way of getting more onside to begin with is what we'll not know for a while yet.

I did also notice that when they did a press conference, female journalists were allowed to ask questions.

 

[Sm5]

I wonder what Taiwan, Japan, Korea and Philipines are thinking now about their promises of security from the US.
Even in Europe, it gives those pushing for an EU Army (Dont laugh), one more argument to their cause, of moving away from NATO.

 

[birchesgreen]

I did also notice that when they did a press conference, female journalists were allowed to ask questions.

We've got the "Woke" version of the Taliban at the moment, let's see how long that lasts.

 

[Gloster]

I suspect that the Taliban are just putting on a less extreme face while they get the foreigners out of the country. Once all the westerners have gone the religious fundamentalists will reassert themselves and reintroducing their draconian practices. There may be a few softer elements to some of the laws they bring in, but whether this will be reflected in how they are applied on the ground is a different matter.

 

[DarloRich]

Johnson & Raab are rightly getting a parliamentary shoeing in the debate today. Even Tory MP's are laying into them.

 

[brad465]

Question Time have decided it's worth coming off summer break to have a special tonight about this subject. Once I knew Parliament were to be recalled about it I thought it was only a matter of time before QT might do the same.

 

[DarloRich]

Johnson and Raab are still getting a richly deserved kicking. Time in the debate seems to have been given to ex forces MP's who have lined up to tell Johnson how how he has insulted thier service and the sacrifices they and comrades made.

it is all for nothing of course. Johnson will wibble away and nothing will change.

 

[Kite159]

I suspect that the Taliban are just putting on a less extreme face while they get the foreigners out of the country. Once all the westerners have gone the religious fundamentalists will reassert themselves and reintroducing their draconian practices. There may be a few softer elements to some of the laws they bring in, but whether this will be reflected in how they are applied on the ground is a different matter.

Agreed, give it a couple weeks when the worldwide media changes focus to another story and out comes the extreme views of "females can't be seen outdoors without a male escort" etc

 

[Monty]

Johnson and Raab are still getting a richly deserved kicking. Time in the debate seems to have been given to ex forces MP's who have lined up to tell Johnson how how he has insulted thier service and the sacrifices they and comrades made.

it is all for nothing of course. Johnson will wibble away and nothing will change.

I'm by far from Johnson's biggest fan, but in this case there is very little he could do about it. It's very easy for other MPs to band together and condemn the calamity unfolding in country. But British military involvement in Afghanistan ended years ago* and I remember David Cameron making a big deal of it at the time. I'd love to know how many of our MPs would of voted for renewed military action in the country if given the chance? Probably very few. The Secretary of State for Defence had already tested the waters with our NATO 'allies' about some kind of military response and we were basically told to go do one.

For what it's worth I have similar feelings about the whole affair, but short of sending tens of thousands of service personnel back in for another 20 years I'm really not sure what other options are there. The Afghan National Army was a colossal failure, corruption was rife and even with the units that actually existed very few wanted to fight.

 

[The Ham]

Agreed, give it a couple weeks when the worldwide media changes focus to another story and out comes the extreme views of "females can't be seen outdoors without a male escort" etc

Whilst I'm minded to agree I hope to be surprised. Comments by journalists saying that judges are aware that they could impose certain punishments yet won't, do encourage that hope currently - although time will tell

 

[Bantamzen]

I suspect that the Taliban are just putting on a less extreme face while they get the foreigners out of the country. Once all the westerners have gone the religious fundamentalists will reassert themselves and reintroducing their draconian practices. There may be a few softer elements to some of the laws they bring in, but whether this will be reflected in how they are applied on the ground is a different matter.

I agree, they are no mugs. They will have worked out how to put on a progressive face whilst still having the option for their version of Sharia. Time will only tell.

Meanwhile the Muppets on both sides of the house engage in a p***ing contest, playing their politics A game whilst managing to do bigger all. I'm sure the Afghans fearful of oppression, repression and death will be so grateful...

 

[Falcon1200]

I'm by far Johnson's biggest fan, but in this case there is very little he could do about it.

Same here (not Johnson's biggest fan !), and once the Americans had decided to leave, what could the UK realistically do ? I would be interested to know what Boris Johnson's critics suggest as an alternative course of action.

 

[brad465]

I'm by far Johnson's biggest fan, but in this case there is very little he could do about it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you mean something like, "I'm far from Johnson's biggest fan"

 

[Monty]

Woops, yes you are quite correct!

 

[Gloster]

It may be that, once the US decided to pull out, there was very little we could do but follow suit. However, what is less creditable, although hardly surprising in view of their (in)actions over the last few years, is that the government was caught napping. The armed forces, no doubt, had plenty of plans prepared to deal with just about every possible scenario, but they can’t act until they are authorised to do so by the politicians. But the politicians seem to have been miles away and failed to act until the situation had descended into chaos. In a rapidly developing situation like this, if you don’t get started promptly you have lost an awful lot of the limited time you have to do what needs to be done. But it’s only the poor b****y Afghan interpreters, guides, drivers, guards, etc., and their families who will suffer, and they don’t have votes.

 

[DarloRich]

I'm by far Johnson's biggest fan, but in this case there is very little he could do about it. It's very easy for other MPs to band together and condemn the calamity unfolding in country. But British military involvement in Afghanistan ended years ago* and I remember David Cameron making a big deal of it at the time. I'd love to know how many of our MPs would of voted for renewed military action in the country if given the chance? Probably very few. The Secretary of State for Defence had already tested the waters with our NATO 'allies' about some kind of military response and we were basically told to go do one.

For what it's worth I have similar feelings about the whole affair, but short of sending tens of thousands of service personnel back in for another 20 years I'm really not sure what other options are there. The Afghan National Army was a colossal failure, corruption was rife and even with the units that actually existed very few wanted to fight.

Same here (not Johnson's biggest fan !), and once the Americans had decided to leave, what could the UK realistically do ? I would be interested to know what Boris Johnson's critics suggest as an alternative course of action.

I am not suggesting a military response (beyond emergency extraction type involvement) but we could and should have planned better for this. The exit has been shambolic. To think we could or should leave behind people who have put themselves in danger to support our national interests is just wrong. I am sure Johnson & Raab & Patel and the others thought no one will give a stuff about them they because are only natives.

To see the level of sacrifice the armed forces have been asked to make in Afghanistan trashed so openly is also wrong.

 

[Falcon1200]

Surely the main issue is the speed with which the Taliban have taken control of the country; Did anyone seriously expect that, and even if they had, was it ever logistically possible to identify and evacuate all those in danger in such a short space of time ? It is not just the UK that is having to airlift people out in a panic. And the fact that some Afghans have already made it to the UK shows that there is concern for them.

 

[najaB]

Did anyone seriously expect that, and even if they had, was it ever logistically possible to identify and evacuate all those in danger in such a short space of time ?

All? No. A significant number, definitely. It should have started in earnest from the time DJT announced the withdrawal. To be honest, it should really have started before he made any announcements.

 

[DarloRich]

Headline in the Daily Mail tomorrow:

Raab was "Too busy" on holiday to help brave translators.

oh dear. Not a good look.

Surely the main issue is the speed with which the Taliban have taken control of the country; Did anyone seriously expect that

Well there have been plenty of people in the media saying they tried to warn the government about this very situation so some people clearly did. Sadly, those people weren't listened to. In any event a competent government run by mature adults should have contingency plans for this sort of thing that don't take days and days to put into operation. Are the FCO rapid deployment teams even there yet? I might also expect a serious and mature government not to have the PM AND his deputy out of the office at the same time!

I might also come back from my 5 star jollies in Crete when the $hit hit the fan in a country we had a big part in building and paid a lot for in terms of blood.

And the fact that some Afghans have already made it to the UK shows that there is concern for them.

Don't fall for the government line on on this. They have been dragged reluctantly into doing something albeit too little to late (as always with Johnson) once they saw people weren't buying their nonsense. The 20000 they say they will take is not going to happen. The poor people will be dead long before they get a chance to get out. IMO they either get out now or they don't get out.

In any event this should have been sorted out months ago. It shouldn't take the ambassador and his staff staying at their posts signing chits to get people out. The people we are talking about are people who have worked for us in a dangerous environment to secure our national interests. They have been left to fend for themselves and it stinks.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Can you get any stupider than this... Labour MP Richard Burgon has called for us to pay reparations to Afghanistan (link):

There is no military solution in Afghanistan. The focus now should be on reparations and supporting refugees.

 

[DarloRich]

Can you get any stupider than this... Labour MP Richard Burgon has called for us to pay reparations to Afghanistan

Thicker than 2 short planks.