Curtailing Bentham Line services at Carnforth

[BrianW]

Best I can manage short of spending hours 'researching' so please forgive if inaccurate or incomplete.

Firstly, my 5 May 69 to 3 May '70 London-Midland t/t shows at table 50 London Euston to Carlisle [ie WCML northbound] Weekdays-

0500 Carnforth [starting there] to 0540 Windermere [not stopping Oxenholme]
0800 Carnforth- 0818 Oxenholme- 0843 Windermere
0859 Carnforth- 0918 Oxenholme- 0958 Windermere [ex Preston 0815 calling Garstang&Catterall, Lancaster, Hest Bank, Bolton-le-sands on way to Carnforth]
1053 Carnforth- 1127 Windermere [ex Blackpool North 0935 calling Preston, Lancaster]
1125 Carnforth- 1144 Oxenholme- 1220 Windermere [ex Morecambe 1110 calling Hest Bank, Bolton-le-sands] June- Sept
1318 Carnforth- 1334 Oxenholme- 1353 Windermere [ex London Euston 0905 calling WatfordJ, Bletchley, Nuneaton,Crewe, WiganNW, Preston, Lancaster]
1535 Carnforth- 1554 Oxenholme- 1619 Windermere
1630 Carnforth- 1646 Oxenholme- 1745 Carlisle [ex Blackpool North 1508 calling Preston, Lancaster} SO July- Aug 'Through service to Newcastle'.
1852 Carnforth- 1911 Oxenholme- 1936 Windermere [ex WarringtonBQ 1705, calling WiganNW, stns to Preston, Lancaster, Hest bank, Bolton-le-sands]
2027 Carnforth- 2046 Oxenholme- 2111 Windermere.

Enough to confirm several to Windermere and one to Carlisle; one from Euston and a couple for elsewhere (Blackpool, Morecambe, warrington and Preston); most starting at carnforth.

Excuse me for not looking up Southbound- maybe another time??

Secondly (and lastly!), my 15 June to 6 Sept 1964 London Midland Region table 50 Mondays to Fridays-(leaving aside a few MOs)-

7 43 Carnforth- 8 6 Oxenholme- 8 40 Windermere
8 12 Carnforth- 8 31/39 Oxenholme- 8 58 Tebay- 9 14 Shap- 9 27/32 Penrith for Ullswater- 9 57 Carlisle [ex WarringtonBQ 6 0]
9 8 Carnforth- 9 19 Milnthorpe- 9.30 Oxenholme- 10 0 Windermere [ex Preston 8 15]
9 48 Carnforth- 10 9 Oxenholme- 10 46 Windermere [ex Manchester Vic 7 45, Liverpool Exchange 8 10 calling Preston, Lancaster, Hest Bank] until 28 August
10 40 Carnforth- 10 59 Oxenholme- 11 22 Windermere [ex Preston 9 58]
11 38 Carnforth- 11 56 Oxenholme- 12 21 Tebay- 12 49 Penrith for Ullswater- 1 17 Carlisle- 4 6 Edinburgh Princes St (4 8 GlasgowCent via Motherwell) 5 3 Pert- 9 20 Inverness [ex Crewe 9 25 calling Warrngtn, Wigan, Prestn, Lanc]
...

Enough to 'paint the picture' I think (and I've taken a long time over this, AND my wife needs the computer now and lunch ....

Hope this helps somehow.

 

[Glenn1969]

If a link was available to the Furness line how many people would use a Leeds- Barrow direct service?

 

[Llandudno]

Best I can manage short of spending hours 'researching' so please forgive if inaccurate or incomplete.

Firstly, my 5 May 69 to 3 May '70 London-Midland t/t shows at table 50 London Euston to Carlisle [ie WCML northbound] Weekdays-

0500 Carnforth [starting there] to 0540 Windermere [not stopping Oxenholme]
0800 Carnforth- 0818 Oxenholme- 0843 Windermere
0859 Carnforth- 0918 Oxenholme- 0958 Windermere [ex Preston 0815 calling Garstang&Catterall, Lancaster, Hest Bank, Bolton-le-sands on way to Carnforth]
1053 Carnforth- 1127 Windermere [ex Blackpool North 0935 calling Preston, Lancaster]
1125 Carnforth- 1144 Oxenholme- 1220 Windermere [ex Morecambe 1110 calling Hest Bank, Bolton-le-sands] June- Sept
1318 Carnforth- 1334 Oxenholme- 1353 Windermere [ex London Euston 0905 calling WatfordJ, Bletchley, Nuneaton,Crewe, WiganNW, Preston, Lancaster]
1535 Carnforth- 1554 Oxenholme- 1619 Windermere
1630 Carnforth- 1646 Oxenholme- 1745 Carlisle [ex Blackpool North 1508 calling Preston, Lancaster} SO July- Aug 'Through service to Newcastle'.
1852 Carnforth- 1911 Oxenholme- 1936 Windermere [ex WarringtonBQ 1705, calling WiganNW, stns to Preston, Lancaster, Hest bank, Bolton-le-sands]
2027 Carnforth- 2046 Oxenholme- 2111 Windermere.

Enough to confirm several to Windermere and one to Carlisle; one from Euston and a couple for elsewhere (Blackpool, Morecambe, warrington and Preston); most starting at carnforth.

Excuse me for not looking up Southbound- maybe another time??

Secondly (and lastly!), my 15 June to 6 Sept 1964 London Midland Region table 50 Mondays to Fridays-(leaving aside a few MOs)-

7 43 Carnforth- 8 6 Oxenholme- 8 40 Windermere
8 12 Carnforth- 8 31/39 Oxenholme- 8 58 Tebay- 9 14 Shap- 9 27/32 Penrith for Ullswater- 9 57 Carlisle [ex WarringtonBQ 6 0]
9 8 Carnforth- 9 19 Milnthorpe- 9.30 Oxenholme- 10 0 Windermere [ex Preston 8 15]
9 48 Carnforth- 10 9 Oxenholme- 10 46 Windermere [ex Manchester Vic 7 45, Liverpool Exchange 8 10 calling Preston, Lancaster, Hest Bank] until 28 August
10 40 Carnforth- 10 59 Oxenholme- 11 22 Windermere [ex Preston 9 58]
11 38 Carnforth- 11 56 Oxenholme- 12 21 Tebay- 12 49 Penrith for Ullswater- 1 17 Carlisle- 4 6 Edinburgh Princes St (4 8 GlasgowCent via Motherwell) 5 3 Pert- 9 20 Inverness [ex Crewe 9 25 calling Warrngtn, Wigan, Prestn, Lanc]
...

Enough to 'paint the picture' I think (and I've taken a long time over this, AND my wife needs the computer now and lunch ....

Hope this helps somehow.

The more you look at timetables from 50+ years ago it’s no wonder so many lines and stations closed.
The frequencies were so poor, trains originating and ending at some random destinations it’s little wonder the trains were so poorly patronised.

A cynic would say that running such a poor level of service helps justify closure when Road building was high on the political agenda..

 

[BrianW]

If a link was available to the Furness line how many people would use a Leeds- Barrow direct service?

Why would anyone use it? I suppose some may use it to get to Leeds from Barrow for a job (few in Barrow) or 'County Lines' to a drug capital? Sorry to pour on cold water.

 

[BrianW]

The more you look at timetables from 50+ years ago it’s no wonder so many lines and stations closed.
The frequencies were so poor, trains originating and ending at some random destinations it’s little wonder the trains were so poorly patronised.

A cynic would say that running such a poor level of service helps justify closure when Road building was high on the political agenda..

With regret, I agree. Surely Marples had at least a conflict of interest- some say he was close to the PM's wife
Those times included dividing of trains en route, adding and removal of carriages, hell on Summer Saturdays and row after row of unused or under-used stock in sidings.
Frequent or regular (preferably clockface) is shown to be the way ahead, with max 10 minute connections to suit the most common changes, same or cross-platform preferably and with canopies and sheltered waiting areas and up-to-the-minute info- a lot of progress has been made.

 

[yorksrob]

Why would anyone use it? I suppose some may use it to get to Leeds from Barrow for a job (few in Barrow) or 'County Lines' to a drug capital? Sorry to pour on cold water.

I would. I've been to a lot of rugby matches in West Cumbria by train over the past ten years, and I have soft spot for the pub at Foxfield.

But I admit, I may not be a typical passenger flow !

 

[BigCj34]

I would. I've been to a lot of rugby matches in West Cumbria by train over the past ten years, and I have soft spot for the pub at Foxfield.

But I admit, I may not be a typical passenger flow !

In fairness the connections are decent at Carnforth for going to Leeds from the Furness line, and with the addition of extra services on the Bentham line going to Leeds is quite easily done.

Restoring the link between the Furness and Bentham line would mean services would have to skip Carnforth as a stop and thus anyone going to Lancaster and beyond will not be able to.

A new Barrow - Bentham line service would have to be added if it skips Carnforth, and is there the demand for that? I am not sure there is the same demand for going to West Yorkshire as there is to Manchester, which is the go to big city for Furness residents. It also has a station at the airport.

 

[yorksrob]

In fairness the connections are decent at Carnforth for going to Leeds from the Furness line, and with the addition of extra services on the Bentham line going to Leeds is quite easily done.

Restoring the link between the Furness and Bentham line would mean services would have to skip Carnforth as a stop and thus anyone going to Lancaster and beyond will not be able to.

A new Barrow - Bentham line service would have to be added if it skips Carnforth, and is there the demand for that? I am not sure there is the same demand for going to West Yorkshire as there is to Manchester, which is the go to big city for Furness residents. It also has a station at the airport.

Yes, I've always found the connections to be decent (apart from the current situation of course).

 

[Halish Railway]

A new Barrow - Bentham line service would have to be added if it skips Carnforth, and is there the demand for that? I am not sure there is the same demand for going to West Yorkshire as there is to Manchester, which is the go to big city for Furness residents. It also has a station at the airport.

Cumbria/The Lake District is an extremely popular tourist destination for the people of West Yorkshire, however, it must be said that the southern part of the Lakes around Barrow, Grange and Silverdale isn’t as popular as Keswick, Windermere and Ambleside in the North/Central Lakes. Therefore, introducing more services to Carnforth and reinstating the WCML platforms will most likely attract more passengers.

What must be pointed out is that most people have to drive along the A65 which between Skipton and the junction with the M6 only has one place that you can overtake slower vehicles at Giggleswick. Once more, Windermere and Ambleside are extremely congested during School holidays.

It’s not like the local Stagecoach Buses are a great alternative to getting around the Lakes as the fairs are RIDICULOUSLY expensive. From what I remember from the last time I used them, you can’t buy a single/return ticket, meaning that the only option is a £8.50 rover. Also, AFAIK, the Plusbus option from Windermere is no longer available.

 

[yorksrob]

Cumbria/The Lake District is an extremely popular tourist destination for the people of West Yorkshire, however, it must be said that the southern part of the Lakes around Barrow, Grange and Silverdale isn’t as popular as Keswick, Windermere and Ambleside in the North/Central Lakes. Therefore, introducing more services to Carnforth and reinstating the WCML platforms will most likely attract more passengers.

What must be pointed out is that most people have to drive along the A65 which between Skipton and the junction with the M6 only has one place that you can overtake slower vehicles at Giggleswick. Once more, Windermere and Ambleside are extremely congested during School holidays.

It’s not like the local Stagecoach Buses are a great alternative to getting around the Lakes as the fairs are RIDICULOUSLY expensive. From what I remember from the last time I used them, you can’t buy a single/return ticket, meaning that the only option is a £8.50 rover. Also, AFAIK, the Plusbus option from Windermere is no longer available.

You are correct. The local bus fares from Windermere are extortionate.

 

[edwin_m]

The more you look at timetables from 50+ years ago it’s no wonder so many lines and stations closed.
The frequencies were so poor, trains originating and ending at some random destinations it’s little wonder the trains were so poorly patronised.

A cynic would say that running such a poor level of service helps justify closure when Road building was high on the political agenda..

I can't speak for this service in particular, but I don't think there was a general policy of reducing service prior to closure. It seems to have been largely a matter of inertia, that a slow, infrequent and random service was perpetuated from an era when nobody had any alternative and far fewer people were travelling anyway. In the Beeching era many lines had an inconvenient and inefficient service using many resources right up to the day of closure, and rationalization might actually have saved some (as achieved by Gerry Fiennes). Many of the surviving lines were rationalized later, cutting costs but often also improving the service.

In fairness the connections are decent at Carnforth for going to Leeds from the Furness line, and with the addition of extra services on the Bentham line going to Leeds is quite easily done.

It's one of those where passenger convenience and operational benefits ought to coincide. Scheduling a train from Barrow and a train to Leeds (or vice versa) to pass on the junction at Carnforth maximises WCML capacity but also provides ideal connection times between the two.

It’s not like the local Stagecoach Buses are a great alternative to getting around the Lakes as the fairs are RIDICULOUSLY expensive. From what I remember from the last time I used them, you can’t buy a single/return ticket, meaning that the only option is a £8.50 rover. Also, AFAIK, the Plusbus option from Windermere is no longer available.

Trying to justify a railway re-opening on the basis that the bus fares are too high is rather like re-building your house because you have too many spiders. If it weren't for our ridiculous bus deregulation laws the state could subsidise the fares if it decided that was the best way of reducing car us, rather than reaching for the sledgehammer because smaller tools are unavailable.

 

[daveo]

Also, AFAIK, the Plusbus option from Windermere is no longer available.

Taken from Redspottedhanky this evening (01/08/2020) -
PlusBus for Windermere on Sun, Aug 2nd for 1 adults and 0 children
(Total price for all passengers: £4.60)

 

[Halish Railway]

Taken from Redspottedhanky this evening (01/08/2020) -
PlusBus for Windermere on Sun, Aug 2nd for 1 adults and 0 children
(Total price for all passengers: £4.60)

Ah, OK - The last time I brought a ticket from Windermere I couldn’t find a Plusbus option.

 

[alistairlees]

Taken from Redspottedhanky this evening (01/08/2020) -
PlusBus for Windermere on Sun, Aug 2nd for 1 adults and 0 children
(Total price for all passengers: £4.60)

Someone still uses Redspottedhanky.com! I had no idea that was the case.

 

[daveo]

Someone still uses Redspottedhanky.com! I had no idea that was the case.

I've had no problems with it, so see no reason to change elsewhere!

 

[BigCj34]

I can't speak for this service in particular, but I don't think there was a general policy of reducing service prior to closure. It seems to have been largely a matter of inertia, that a slow, infrequent and random service was perpetuated from an era when nobody had any alternative and far fewer people were travelling anyway. In the Beeching era many lines had an inconvenient and inefficient service using many resources right up to the day of closure, and rationalization might actually have saved some (as achieved by Gerry Fiennes). Many of the surviving lines were rationalized later, cutting costs but often also improving the service.

It's one of those where passenger convenience and operational benefits ought to coincide. Scheduling a train from Barrow and a train to Leeds (or vice versa) to pass on the junction at Carnforth maximises WCML capacity but also provides ideal connection times between the two.

Trying to justify a railway re-opening on the basis that the bus fares are too high is rather like re-building your house because you have too many spiders. If it weren't for our ridiculous bus deregulation laws the state could subsidise the fares if it decided that was the best way of reducing car us, rather than reaching for the sledgehammer because smaller tools are unavailable.

It is not like the Lakes was awash with railway lines to begin with, and the ones that have closed range from extremely unlikely (Penwith-Keswick) to absolutely no chance (Ulverston-Haverthwaite, Foxfield-Coniston, Keswick-Workington) in terms of reopening. The Lakes of course needs affordable buses within the National Park to supplement rail gateways.

Anyway Carnforth would not be a reopening, but rebuilding platforms.

 

[edwin_m]

It is not like the Lakes was awash with railway lines to begin with, and the ones that have closed range from extremely unlikely (Penwith-Keswick) to absolutely no chance (Ulverston-Haverthwaite, Foxfield-Coniston, Keswick-Workington) in terms of reopening. The Lakes of course needs affordable buses within the National Park to supplement rail gateways.

Anyway Carnforth would not be a reopening, but rebuilding platforms.

So why are we talking about bus fares in the Lake District if it's irrelevant to the topic?

It would be reopening in the sense that there would probably have to be an extra stopping service on the WCML to serve it. Unless it's changed again, it looks like Windermere will only have a shuttle in future with a handful of services going through to Manchester.

 

[yoyothehobo]

I dont understand why you would bother putting the wcml platforms back in. It is quicker to get to lancaster with a change at Preston from Leeds, than the direct leeds to Lancaster and is more frequent.

Stopping anything at Carnforth seems pointless on the fasts, the small number of people who would travel to Barrow from the north WCML are not disuaded enough by a change at Lancaster.

Adding in stops would benefit little to a large cost and detriment to the WCML service

 

[BigCj34]

I dont understand why you would bother putting the wcml platforms back in. It is quicker to get to lancaster with a change at Preston from Leeds, than the direct leeds to Lancaster and is more frequent.

Stopping anything at Carnforth seems pointless on the fasts, the small number of people who would travel to Barrow from the north WCML are not disuaded enough by a change at Lancaster.

Adding in stops would benefit little to a large cost and detriment to the WCML service

I wouldn't say quicker but it isn't much slower. I would expect the Avanti services to stop in Carnforth but maybe a limited number of TPE and all Windermere airport services would.

Curious question, did the Furness - Bentham line link mean through services could not stop at Carnforth? Looking at the map I would suspect not, but wanted to be sure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I wouldn't say quicker but it isn't much slower. I would expect the Avanti services to stop in Carnforth but maybe a limited number of TPE and all Windermere airport services would.

Curious question, did the Furness - Bentham line link mean through services could not stop at Carnforth? Looking at the map I would suspect not, but wanted to be sure.

It does bypass the station, yes.

 

[yoyothehobo]

At the moment, it is only 10 minutes quicker to go Leeds to Carnforth.

If you want to go to Lancaster all the options given, and much frequently are with TPE via Manchester, with the trains that carry all the way through to Barrow from Manchester giving a stop at Carnforth, or other TPE services that stop at Oxenholme to give an option for Windemere.

Carnforth itself is tiny Population of about 5-6,000 and if it hadnt had once had mainline platforms, no one would be suggesting it now.

I would suggest there is a very limited number of people travelling from Oxenholme to the Furness Coast, certainly not enough to rebuild platforms on the fasts so you can change trains a stop earlier.

 

[BigCj34]

At the moment, it is only 10 minutes quicker to go Leeds to Carnforth.

If you want to go to Lancaster all the options given, and much frequently are with TPE via Manchester, with the trains that carry all the way through to Barrow from Manchester giving a stop at Carnforth, or other TPE services that stop at Oxenholme to give an option for Windemere.

Carnforth itself is tiny Population of about 5-6,000 and if it hadnt had once had mainline platforms, no one would be suggesting it now.

I would suggest there is a very limited number of people travelling from Oxenholme to the Furness Coast, certainly not enough to rebuild platforms on the fasts so you can change trains a stop earlier.

Sorry, above I meant to write I would NOT expect the Avanti services to stop at Carnforth, that has been corrected.

 

[randyrippley]

I wouldn't say quicker but it isn't much slower. I would expect the Avanti services to stop in Carnforth but maybe a limited number of TPE and all Windermere airport services would.

Curious question, did the Furness - Bentham line link mean through services could not stop at Carnforth? Looking at the map I would suspect not, but wanted to be sure.

Through services reversed, presumably with change of loco. Main through services seem to have been the morning and evening club trains for the mill owners who lived on the coast, but ran businesses in Bradford
It was discussed around 12 months ago in a thread about Arthur Ransome and his books

The bypass was mainly for iron ore, coke and possibly express boat trains when the ferries still used Barrow, not Heysham

 

[BrianW]

Seeing this-

Brief Encounter Film Location and English Stately Home

Visit the setting of one of the greatest British films of all time at Carnforth Station Heritage Centre before heading to Leighton Hall, the historic seat of the Gillow family, which is still…

www.visitmanchester.com

I'm wondering whether there would be advantage in enabling 'Brief Encounters' at Carnforth in the time otherwise taken doubling back via Lancaster? Something for a 'smart Alec'?

 

[30907]

Through services reversed, presumably with change of loco. Main through services seem to have been the morning and evening club trains for the mill owners who lived on the coast, but ran businesses in Bradford
It was discussed around 12 months ago in a thread about Arthur Ransome and his books

The bypass was mainly for iron ore, coke and possibly express boat trains when the ferries still used Barrow, not Heysham

Certainly by 1947 the only through service via Carnforth was a summer Saturday one to Barrow. The Club Train was for Morecambe only, with a connection at Skipton for stations to Carnforth.
I am not sure that the avoiding line ever carried regular passenger traffic, but I might be wrong (moi?!).

 

[randyrippley]

Certainly by 1947 the only through service via Carnforth was a summer Saturday one to Barrow. The Club Train was for Morecambe only, with a connection at Skipton for stations to Carnforth.
I am not sure that the avoiding line ever carried regular passenger traffic, but I might be wrong (moi?!).

I thought there was a Barrow-Grange-Bradford mill owners express aka "club"?
Would have been pre-war or earlier

 

[Ken H]

Pennine ran that route for years, while Ribble ran Lancaster-Skipton, both using coaches. Neither survived deregulation

Kirkby Lonsdale coach hire run 580/581/582 Skipton-Settle-Kirkby Lonsdale/Lancaster. but it takes over 2 hrs.

 

[randyrippley]

Kirkby Lonsdale coach hire run 580/581/582 Skipton-Settle-Kirkby Lonsdale/Lancaster. but it takes over 2 hrs.

to replace the railway it would have to be routed via Bentham, not Kirkby and Ingleton

 

[Ken H]

to replace the railway it would have to be routed via Bentham, not Kirkby and Ingleton

There is an ingleton -lancaster bus stagecoach 80 which goes via Bentham and Wennington. 4 a day not sundays. There is also the kirkby Lonsdale - lancaster 81 that goes via Wennington.

81, 82: Buses from Kirkby Lonsdale to Lancaster

KLCH bus 81 and 82 run every hour between Kirkby Lonsdale, Hornby and Lancaster

getdown.org.uk

To get to Carnforth by bus from craven, change in Lancaster or Kendal. Stagecoach 567 KL - Kendal.

567 - Kendal - Kirkby Lonsdale/Ingleton

Stagecoach Cumbria and North Lancashire

bustimes.org

To replace the Bentham line you would need a quick bus.
There again, if it started at Settle Station you would not need a Skipton - Settle replacement. I would only have stops in Clapham (Village, not the train station), Bentham, Wennington and maybe Hornby, then express into Lancaster. Stop at the bus station and the train station.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Through services reversed, presumably with change of loco. Main through services seem to have been the morning and evening club trains for the mill owners who lived on the coast, but ran businesses in Bradford
It was discussed around 12 months ago in a thread about Arthur Ransome and his books

The bypass was mainly for iron ore, coke and possibly express boat trains when the ferries still used Barrow, not Heysham

Where was the coke and iron ore coming from off the Bentham line ? I thought Durham coke traffic emerged onto the Furness line at Arnside.