Dangerous boarding procedures at Euston

[grinderx]

This just in.....

Avanti email offering early bird boarding at Euston.

Words can't convey how massively disappointing this is. This is literally the last thing I wanted to see happen.

It flies in the face of anti discrimination and now means that people good at using online services will get priority over those that don't, with no sensible protection for those that probably fall into categories that should be up front (i.e. older people).

 

[Danieldaniel]

What’s to stop anyone using real time trains etc. to find out exactly the same information? Unless they’re going to physically check whether people are members of Club Avanti before allowing them onto the platform.

Nothing does stop them doing that hence why the ramps are always busy before departures are boarded. They’re just capitalising in the same data sets

 

[Dr Hoo]

It's free but the intention to clear in wanting people to book via Avanti, so that they get to keep the sales commission themselves. I'd still consider that monetising as they are doing something that results in financial benefit to themselves, even if the passenger isn't directly paying for it.

Can you clarify what you mean by Avanti ‘keeping the sales commission themselves’?

Doesn’t all revenue go to the Treasury (with costs covered by the DfT)?

Can we conclude that this is actually a ‘government approved’ scheme that keeps some money out of the hands of third party retailers?

 

[alistairlees]

Can you clarify what you mean by Avanti ‘keeping the sales commission themselves’?

Doesn’t all revenue go to the Treasury (with costs covered by the DfT)?

Can we conclude that this is actually a ‘government approved’ scheme that keeps some money out of the hands of third party retailers?

It will definitely be resulting in increased industry costs by encouraging use of less cost-effective sales channels, through state subsidy.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Words can't convey how massively disappointing this is. This is literally the last thing I wanted to see happen.

It flies in the face of anti discrimination and now means that people good at using online services will get priority over those that don't, with no sensible protection for those that probably fall into categories that should be up front (i.e. older people).

I'm now really hoping for a successful discrimination case against them. Monetising such a poor situation stinks in the extreme.

It's not his usual thing (as for obvious reasons wheelchair user discrimination is more his thing) but perhaps @kingqueen would know who might look at this?

 

[OscarH]

As I alluded to in post #201, presumably you can view this information before the texts are sent on Real Time Trains, or even the NRE website which will be more familiar to the general public, unless they’ve found some way of suppressing this?

This is the big question - is this just happening when the platform gets confirmed and unsuppressed in Darwin (which is usually later than RTT show it), so the same time as NRE will show it, and other retailers will also send out their platform notifications, but perhaps a bit before they release it on screen at Euston itself, which while the marketing is misleading it's a fine way to do notifications, or are they somehow sending it out earlier, which would be entirely unacceptable (no retailer, whether the TOC or not, should ever be sending out suppressed platform information to customers under any circumstances)

My personal suspicion is on the former, and it's just misleading advertising

 

[43066]

I'm now really hoping for a successful discrimination case against them. Monetising such a poor situation stinks in the extreme.

It's not his usual thing (as for obvious reasons wheelchair user discrimination is more his thing) but perhaps @kingqueen would know who might look at this?

I doubt it’s discriminatory in an unlawful sense, though? It shouldn’t have any bearing on wheelchair accessibility, assistance provision etc, and there’s nothing to stop anyone who wishes to from signing up to Club Avanti. Airlines have certainly done similar (and have charged for it).

The argument in the post you quoted that an online only service somehow indirectly discriminates against “older people” seems pretty tenuous, and is based on the increasingly outdated notion that all older people are hopeless with technology.

 

[setdown]

Reading this post, I thought Virgin Trains used to offer a service texting platform information early. I've managed to find reference to it here. https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/news/26937/virgin-trainsearlybird-boarding-text-london-euston/

 

[43066]

Reading this post, I thought Virgin Trains used to offer a service texting platform information early. I've managed to find reference to it here. https://www.globalrailwayreview.com/news/26937/virgin-trainsearlybird-boarding-text-london-euston/

Interesting that Virgin pitched it as a way of helpfully staggering boarding to improve the overall experience, rather than the “you can feel smug about being part of an exclusive club” slant Avanti have gone for.

 

[island]

It flies in the face of anti discrimination and now means that people good at using online services will get priority over those that don't, with no sensible protection for those that probably fall into categories that should be up front (i.e. older people).

"Using a mobile phone" is not a protected characteristic, so it is not discrimination.

There is a process for booking assistance available for booking for those who need it.

 

[Adam Williams]

I signed up for Club Avanti yesterday, saved my mobile number and bought the same tickets for the same service from TrainSplit and Avanti at the same time.


TrainSplit's was sent as soon as the platform was marked as confirmed / visible in Darwin.

I never actually got a notification from Avanti, even after departure.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Using a mobile phone" is not a protected characteristic, so it is not discrimination.

Being able to use one might well be, though.

 

[jon0844]

It's not just a Euston phenomenon I was at St Pancras in December & even with a "queuing system" in place once the gates opened it was a scrum to get on with the lionshare going on the rear train. That is something shared with Euston is the getting on the train so the rear gets full and standing but a large proportion of seats are free in the front, ultimately I can't help but think of this Tommy Lee Jones quote from Men In Black.

"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that people were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow"

And 5 minutes to go I'd know my train to Lichfield (although I cheat and use RTT)

When you see how calm they were in Japan on the Airbus A350 that caught fire after hitting a plane landing, it got me to think about how they'd queue and board trains at Euston compared to us.

Everyone survived, nobody tried to take their bags and just got on with following instructions from cabin crew. Look at similar evacuations at other airports (like one recent-ish one in Vegas?) where half the passengers left with bags and coats and must have delayed the egress hugely.

If people could follow instructions, there would be zero issue letting people congregate on the platform and keep clear of those alighting, and wait for the signal to board once all train cleaning/loading duties were complete. But even if we erected barriers on the platform and created waiting areas, would anyone respect them?

Avanti texting people in advance will just add to the scrum - as everyone falls over each other to get on the train first to secure their (likely reserved) seat and find a place to put their belongings.

Perhaps the many issues over people taking reserved seats and then refusing to leave is another reason people are so desperate to get on first. If you knew 100% that your seat would be there, you might be more likely to board as LATE as possible and just take your seat a few minutes before departure. I mean, why join in on the chaos?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Everyone survived, nobody tried to take their bags and just got on with following instructions from cabin crew. Look at similar evacuations at other airports (like one recent-ish one in Vegas?) where half the passengers left with bags and coats and must have delayed the egress hugely.

Now I know more about that, I think the outcome of that was because of the aircraft and the nature of the fire (which started externally), not the evacuation. It took eighteen minutes to complete it. In most major accidents of that nature, that would have meant at least 2/3 of the passengers dead as typically a fireball results far sooner than that.

It's certainly nowhere near 90 seconds as per the certification test.

Thus, I don't think we can really use that as an example here (though it is true that Japanese people are more compliant).

The answer is probably, though, that the equivalent of an Avanti service would have compulsory reservations in Japan so no reason to rush. And indeed that in Japan if it says compulsory reservations they'll ensure they have a reservation, not just work around it by knowing that it isn't enforced.

 

[island]

Being able to use one might well be, though.

And there are reasonable adjustments in place for people with disabilities (etc.) in the form of travel assistance, as I said.

I understand that you might not like the way Avanti has chosen to operate, and you're entitled to not like it. But make bad proxy arguments about discrimination against the RailForums standard minority and you can expect to be challenged on them.

 

[jon0844]

It's certainly nowhere near 90 seconds as per the certification test.

Thus, I don't think we can really use that as an example here (though it is true that Japanese people are more compliant).

I didn't realise it took that long to evacuate. Even more impressed with the plane design now!

 

[Benjwri]

not just work around it by knowing that it isn't enforced.

Although to be clear Avanti trains are not compulsory reservation, and they are just misusing a flag in Darwin.

 

[jon0844]

Although to be clear Avanti trains are not compulsory reservation, and they are just misusing a flag in Darwin.

I think the point is that people today appear to think they can sit in reserved seats and not move, and that in many cases it may not be enforced. With that in mind, people are going to be desperate to get on a train even when ordinarily they should be calm and relaxed with nothing to worry about.

It even happens on planes now, where families won't pay for seats, then sit where they want and demand other people show respect and sit somewhere else - and the court of social media often sides with the poor 'victims' too poor to pay and expecting those that did to bow to them.

I understand that people may rush for the unreserved coach if they didn't book a seat, but that should be a small percentage of the overall passengers. Perhaps those without seat reservations should be allowed on the platform before others?

 

[Benjwri]

I think the point is that people today appear to think they can sit in reserved seats and not move, and that in many cases it may not be enforced. With that in mind, people are going to be desperate to get on a train even when ordinarily they should be calm and relaxed with nothing to worry about.

It even happens on planes now, where families won't pay for seats, then sit where they want and demand other people show respect and sit somewhere else - and the court of social media often sides with the poor 'victims' too poor to pay and expecting those that did to bow to them.

I understand that people may rush for the unreserved coach if they didn't book a seat, but that should be a small percentage of the overall passengers. Perhaps those without seat reservations should be allowed on the platform before others?

I fully agree that it is terrible the way people take other people’s seats (Although in general I’ve found people will move if you ask). However I must admit since COVID this has become less common, and a lot more people refuse. Generally I’ll ask once if there aren’t alternative seats, and just stand otherwise as I don’t usually travel far.

The one time I did push the issue on a 3 hour train to Cornwall the man in the seat and his friend stood up and started verbally abusing me though, which does discourage me from trying to push the issue, but credit to GWR where it’s due the Train Manager gave me a complimentary upgrade to apologise for the experience.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And there are reasonable adjustments in place for people with disabilities (etc.) in the form of travel assistance, as I said.

I don't think it would be considered a reasonable adjustment for someone to have to book assistance because Avanti are, unlike every single other station in the entire country, wifully suppressing platform information to a specific channel.

I understand that you might not like the way Avanti has chosen to operate, and you're entitled to not like it. But make bad proxy arguments about discrimination against the RailForums standard minority and you can expect to be challenged on them.

I challenge them at the best of times, but I think there is a borderline case here.

Also, the "RUK Standard Minority" is about a theoretical person with lots of protected characteristics. It takes only one - sight or dexterity issues - to prevent the use of a mobile telephone of the kind needed for this. Heck, there's even a reasonable market for "big button mobiles" for people with these issues!

 

[renegademaster]

I don't think it would be considered a reasonable adjustment for someone to have to book assistance because Avanti are, unlike every single other station in the entire country, wifully suppressing platform information to a specific channel.



I challenge them at the best of times, but I think there is a borderline case here.

Also, the "RUK Standard Minority" is about a theoretical person with lots of protected characteristics. It takes only one - sight or dexterity issues - to prevent the use of a mobile telephone of the kind needed for this. Heck, there's even a reasonable market for "big button mobiles" for people with these issues!

It's Network rail at Euston that supreses the platform numbers, not Avanti. Trainline does the same thing with giving you the numbers. This wouldn't actually stand up in court

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's Network rail at Euston that supreses the platform numbers, not Avanti. Trainline does the same thing with giving you the numbers. This wouldn't actually stand up in court

Can I refer you back to Post 197 and the following discussion, please, which clarifies exactly what Avanti are doing which is slightly separate from general platform suppression?

Trainline gives you an estimated platform based on the timetable/previous performance like Realtime Trains does, that's not the same thing and indeed catches quite a lot of people out.

 

[43066]

I think the point is that people today appear to think they can sit in reserved seats and not move, and that in many cases it may not be enforced.

The unfortunate reality is that, if they’re brazen enough to ignore requests to move, they generally can. There isn’t that much that can be done.

I don't think it would be considered a reasonable adjustment for someone to have to book assistance because Avanti are, unlike every single other station in the entire country, wifully suppressing platform information to a specific channel.

It’s tenuous in the extreme to suggest that this is in any way unlawfully discriminatory. There are many businesses that try to push people to using online services etc. that don’t impact on protected characteristics, and the railway provides adequate reasonable adjustments in the form of assistance, disabled access etc. (accepting that it doesn’t always work as it should).

 

[Bletchleyite]

It’s tenuous in the extreme to suggest that this is in any way unlawfully discriminatory. There are many businesses that try to push people to using online services etc. that don’t impact on protected characteristics, and the railway provides adequate reasonable adjustments in the form of assistance, disabled access etc. (accepting that it doesn’t always work as it should).

We'll have to disagree. I don't think pushing people into awkward things like booking assistance just because they're a bit frail when they'd be able to use the station fine without assistance if Avanti weren't playing this silly little game is in any way Reasonable.

The unfortunate reality is that, if they’re brazen enough to ignore requests to move, they generally can. There isn’t that much that can be done.

Well, there are things that could be done, such as increasing enforcement using security contractors. Not really for this thread, so I'll not delve in in depth, but options exist.

 

[OscarH]

Can I refer you back to Post 197 and the following discussion, please, which clarifies exactly what Avanti are doing which is slightly separate from general platform suppression?

Trainline gives you an estimated platform based on the timetable/previous performance like Realtime Trains does, that's not the same thing and indeed catches quite a lot of people out.

The concern is that Avanti might be something separate to the usual rules - they're marketing implies that, but as of yet we've see no evidence they're doing anything other than standard platform confirmed notifications that other retailers already support.

I don't know about Trainline, but I would be surprised if they're doing anything apart from the usual rules - showing the booked timetable before the day, and showing the platform that's in Darwin on the day (confirmed or not, hopefully with a differentiator between the two; hidden completely if its marked as suppressed as at major terminals)

 

[NLC1072]

Being able to use one might well be, though.

No, it's not.

 

[renegademaster]

Can I refer you back to Post 197 and the following discussion, please, which clarifies exactly what Avanti are doing which is slightly separate from general platform suppression?

Trainline gives you an estimated platform based on the timetable/previous performance like Realtime Trains does, that's not the same thing and indeed catches quite a lot of people out.

It's just Avanti being cheeky and trying to get round the procedures put in by NWR for crowd management and revenue to incentivise people to buy through them. As it is network rail who suppresses the platform and not Avanti so I highly doubt you build a discrimination case out of it. We aren't America where any disparate impact gets seen as discrimination you've got to prove actual intent

 

[43066]

We'll have to disagree. I don't think pushing people into awkward things like booking assistance just because they're a bit frail when they'd be able to use the station fine without assistance if Avanti weren't playing this silly little game is in any way Reasonable.



Well, there are things that could be done, such as increasing enforcement using security contractors.

It’s probably the late announcement of platforms that’s causing the issue rather than this system, though. But yes, agree to disagree. The only way to know for sure is if someone litigates!

Well, there are things that could be done, such as increasing enforcement using security contractors. Not really for this thread, so I'll not delve in in depth, but options exist.

You’d need staff who were prepared to physically eject passengers from seats. These staff do exist in a very limited way (eg SE REOs), but do we really want to promote a culture of staff getting physical with passengers? That said, if behaviour continues to deteriorate, perhaps it will become necessary. Social shaming doesn’t seem to be enough any longer.

Perhaps more of a discussion for the seat reservations thread!

 

[Benjwri]

To be fair although the late announcement of platforms contributes to the size of the rush, there will always be a rush. Even at underground stations where the next service is minutes away you get a massive rush for the trains and epople running.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, it's not.

It could be, depending on the circumstances.

It's just Avanti being cheeky and trying to get round the procedures put in by NWR for crowd management and revenue to incentivise people to buy through them. As it is network rail who suppresses the platform and not Avanti so I highly doubt you build a discrimination case out of it. We aren't America where any disparate impact gets seen as discrimination you've got to prove actual intent

You haven't, simply that a wilful or negligent action could be reasonably foreseen to discriminate and that a reasonable adjustment (such as displaying the platform on screens and announcing it at the same time) was possible.