DB Class 60 for sale

[Richard Scott]

Is this a positive sign that they are going all in with the conversion of this then? I know they'd found suitable engines to use but hadn't heard of any progress since

Be interesting to hear what those suitable engines are given the Mirrlees engine was, I believe, more efficient than GM engine?

 

[ExRes]

Be interesting to hear what those suitable engines are given the Mirrlees engine was, I believe, more efficient than GM engine?

The suggestions of a couple of contributors on Class 60 facebook was that the CAT C175-16 had been mentioned giving 3800hp in rail application

 

[Richard Scott]

The suggestions of a couple of contributors on Class 60 facebook was that the CAT C175-16 had been mentioned giving 3800hp in rail application

Ok, thanks. Assume may have to be derated due to limits of the electrical machines or are they capable of handling more power?

 

[ac6000cw]

The CAT C175-16 is (at full power) an 1800 rpm engine, whereas the existing cl. 60 main alternator is designed for the 1000 rpm MB275T engine. So it wouldn't be a trivial exercise to make the two work together - probably need a new alternator or reduction gearing between them.

I suspect (if it would fit, given it's a V rather than in-line layout) using a 900 or 950 rpm EMD V12 710 would be easier.

 

[The_Train]

The suggestions of a couple of contributors on Class 60 facebook was that the CAT C175-16 had been mentioned giving 3800hp in rail application

Yeah, I won't pretend to be an expert in this field (or much of the railway field haha) but I believe it was this CAT variant plus an option from EMD?

 

[Richard Scott]

The CAT C175-16 is (at full power) an 1800 rpm engine, whereas the existing cl. 60 main alternator is designed for the 1000 rpm MB275T engine. So it wouldn't be a trivial exercise to make the two work together - probably need a new alternator or reduction gearing between them.

I suspect (if it would fit, given it's a V rather than in-line layout) using a 900 or 950 rpm EMD V12 710 would be easier.

It's certainly possible to have gearing between engine and alternator. I know 45s did (engine 750rpm and generator ran at 1080rpm) and assume 47s may have done so too?
If going to do the job may as well use the best component even if it's a little more difficult; the CAT engine is definitely more efficient and likely cleaner than the EMD.

 

[ac6000cw]

It's certainly possible to have gearing between engine and alternator. I know 45s did (engine 750rpm and generator ran at 1080rpm) and assume 47s may have done so too?

I also remember (some years ago) one of the smaller US loco builders/rebuilders using reduction gearing to use an (1800rpm) MTU R4000 series engine with a (900rpm) EMD alternator.

 

[ExRes]

WNXX have listed the stored dates for the 12 locos

037 - Jan 2006
032 - Jul 2006
078 - Aug 2007
036 - Oct 2007
089 - Aug 2008
052 - Oct 2008
012 - Jan 2009
093 - Jan 2009
068 - Sep 2009
077 - Dec 2009
048 - Nov 2010
084 - Jun 2011

These twelve were listed for sale in January, today WNXX report that 052, 089 & 093 have been shunted to the main depot area. It's still 'unclear' who the owner/purchaser is but it's been established that all twelve will be used as spares donors, we shall see who and why in due course

 

[The_Train]

These twelve were listed for sale in January, today WNXX report that 052, 089 & 093 have been shunted to the main depot area. It's still 'unclear' who the owner/purchaser is but it's been established that all twelve will be used as spares donors, we shall see who and why in due course

Was it these where I'd read the initial winning bidder was no longer being considered and the 2nd and 3rd placed bidders had been brought back into the game?

You'd have thought GB would have wanted them either as spares for their current fleet or to progress with the conversion project at Longport.

Edit: Bit of a presumption there that the 60 project at Longport is GB lead as I am not entirely sure

 

[ExRes]

An update today on WNXX regarding the queue of potential buyers fighting each other off for ownership of 012, 032, 036, 037, 048, 052, 068, 077, 078, 084, 089 & 093, DB are said to be "putting out feelers around the industry, both operators and scrap handlers, with regards to purchasing some or all of the locos"

 

[Towers]

An update today on WNXX regarding the queue of potential buyers fighting each other off for ownership of 012, 032, 036, 037, 048, 052, 068, 077, 078, 084, 089 & 093, DB are said to be "putting out feelers around the industry, both operators and scrap handlers, with regards to purchasing some or all of the locos"

Nobody wants them then!?!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

There won't be much call for haulage of HS2 construction trains now the planned route mileage has been more than halved.

 

[ExRes]

There won't be much call for haulage of HS2 construction trains now the planned route mileage has been more than halved.

I find it hard to believe there ever was, these 60s, and others, have been available for months now and nobody has made a move for them, DCR haven't, so it seems, laid a finger on the fourteen they bought a year and a half ago, were there ever any contracts secure enough to warrant the expenditure these locos needed to make them even half reliable?

 

[37114]

The Class 60 Preservation group overtly call out on their website they want 60048;

Frequently Asked Questions — Class 60 Preservation Group

www.class60preservation.co.uk

 

[50035Ark Royal]

The Class 60 Preservation group overtly call out on their website they want 60048;

Frequently Asked Questions — Class 60 Preservation Group

www.class60preservation.co.uk

Hi All, does anyone have a list of the 35 class 60's in the 2 scrap lines at Toton. Info would be appreciated, thanks in advance.

 

[Spaceship323]

Hi All, does anyone have a list of the 35 class 60's in the 2 scrap lines at Toton. Info would be appreciated, thanks in advance.

This was in Feb 22, not sure what's moved since then. Credit to Robert Davies, class 60 group for this list.

Line One South to North.
60067 EWS Grey, 60032 Transrail, 60088 EWS Grey, 60003 EWS, 60058 EWS, 60051 EWS, 60069 EWS, 60031 EWS, 60005 EWS, 60053 EWS, 60078 EWS Blue, 60025 EWS, 60093 EWS, 60083 EWS, 60023 EWS, 60089 EWS, 60033 Corus Grey, 60084 EWS Grey, 60052 EWS, 60034 EWS Grey, 60073 EWS Grey, 60036 EWS, 60077 EWS Grey, 60012 EWS
Line Two North to South.
60048 EWS, 60072 EWS Grey, 60094 EWS, 60043 EWS, 60068 EWS Grey, 60041 EWS, 60030 EWS, 60097 EWS, 60042 EWS, 60037 EWS, 60027 EWS

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[ExRes]

A rather interesting report on yesterdays WNXX latest news

"There is a strong but as yet unconfirmed indication that Land Recovery are moving towards operating their own traction with the advice that Land Recovery are in the frame for the purchase 0f the WQDA Class 60s currently residing amongst the stored Class 60s in Toton Yard"

These are the 12 that were put up for sale in January 2023

012, 032, 036, 037, 048, 052, 068, 077, 078, 084, 089 & 093

Time will tell whether an economically viable fleet can be put together out of these locos and, of course, if Land Recovery can run their own fleet at a lower cost than the current situation with Colas providing traction

 

[45076]

Anyone any idea what a runner big diesel would cost, I was thinking from a preservation point of view

Buying it is the easy bit

 

[Rail Quest]

Land Recovery are moving towards operating their own traction

Isn't this the company the Colas are mainly working with hauling trains in and out of Longport (among other places) currently?

Those locos have all been stored for at least 12 years (some as many as 17 years), I can't imagine they're in the best of conditions to say the least... perhaps Land Recovery have an engine refit program in mind

 

[D365]

Those locos have all been stored for at least 12 years (some as many as 17 years), I can't imagine they're in the best of conditions to say the least... perhaps Land Recovery have an engine refit program in mind

I'd be surprised, given the lack of progress with the Class 60 at Longport.

 

[37114]

I'd be surprised, given the lack of progress with the Class 60 at Longport.

I imagine they are waiting for the class 69 programme to finish first and have just stripped 60014 in rediness + removed any useful spares

 

[D365]

I imagine they are waiting for the class 69 programme to finish first and have just stripped 60014 in rediness + removed any useful spares

I’m not under the impression that a Class 60 re-engineering would use EMD 710 engines.

 

[Rail Quest]

I’m not under the impression that a Class 60 re-engineering would use EMD 710 engines.

I do remember hearing they indeed performed some work on 014 but not for the purposes of fitting a 710 to it, but instead a Cat C175-16 (to my delight). Perhaps they've done everything they wanted to do with 014 for now and now it's just a case of waiting for a customer to be found

 

[Richard Scott]

I do remember hearing they indeed performed some work on 014 but not for the purposes of fitting a 710 to it, but instead a Cat C175-16 (to my delight). Perhaps they've done everything they wanted to do with 014 for now and now it's just a case of waiting for a customer to be found

Would have thought a 710 is a retrograde step in terms of emissions and fuel consumption and the CAT engine would be a much better proposition?

 

[Rail Quest]

Would have thought a 710 is a retrograde step in terms of emissions and fuel consumption and the CAT engine would be a much better proposition?

Yes I would assume it was something along those lines. Do 60s emit less or more emissions than sheds? If less, then isn't there a rule in place to prevent locomotives getting their engines swapped with a more thirsty engine?

And even bearing that in mind - the C175-16s are supposedly more powerful than the 710s as 3800hp rather than 3300hp

 

[ExRes]

Slightly off piste, although it was a DB loco of course, is that DCR 60099 is supposed to be going to Loughborough for reinstatement work this year, will that get an engine rebuild I wonder, plenty of other 60s there to borrow/steal from, or will some outside jiggery pokery take place?

 

[Richard Scott]

Yes I would assume it was something along those lines. Do 60s emit less or more emissions than sheds? If less, then isn't there a rule in place to prevent locomotives getting their engines swapped with a more thirsty engine?

And even bearing that in mind - the C175-16s are supposedly more powerful than the 710s as 3800hp rather than 3300hp

On paper expect the newer 710 has lower emissions but in reality the Mirrlees engine was quite frugal and was pre emission regulations so not tested? Wouldn't be surprised if Mirrless beat the 710 in some areas.

 

[43096]

On paper expect the newer 710 has lower emissions but in reality the Mirrlees engine was quite frugal and was pre emission regulations so not tested? Wouldn't be surprised if Mirrless beat the 710 in some areas.

The Mirrlees is much better for fuel consumption than the 710 for a start.

 

[ac6000cw]

Would have thought a 710 is a retrograde step in terms of emissions and fuel consumption and the CAT engine would be a much better proposition?

Don't forget that the CAT C175 is a high-speed engine, whereas the Mirrlees MB275T and EMD 710 are medium-speed engines. So the C175 would need a different alternator whereas it might be possible to re-use the existing Brush alternator with a 710.

Re. relative fuel consumptions, this is a quote from Roger Ford in a Modern Railways article in 2019:

General Motors was paranoid about fuel consumption and, unlike other manufacturers, never published specific fuel consumption figures. The closest I ever got was a graph in a British Rail conference paper in 1987. This included ‘worst new engine’ at 216g/kWh when the best new engine (presumably the Mirrlees) gave 198g/kWh. Since the freight hauliers are the most realistic operators on the network we can rule out re-engining or re-purposing Class 66s as an economic option. Good housekeeping will see the main reductions.

...so about 10% higher for the 710 versus MB275T maybe?

(This ties in with comments I've read in US magazines that EMD two-stroke powered locos have worse fuel consumption than GE four-strokes, but the difference isn't usually enough for it to be a decisive buying factor, especially as EMD engines have a reputation for being easier/cheaper to maintain).

 

[BRX]

Seems a slightly unhealthy situation, for a country to have virtually its entire freight haulage fleet dependent on a single engine manufacturer, not that re-engining some 60s would have much of an impact on that either way.