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DB Class 60 for sale

Richard Scott

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Don't forget that the CAT C175 is a high-speed engine, whereas the Mirrlees MB275T and EMD 710 are medium-speed engines. So the C175 would need a different alternator whereas it might be possible to re-use the existing Brush alternator with a 710.
It's possible to just add gearing between the two. This was done on some Sulzer engines, the 750rpm engine was geared up to over 1000rpm to drive the generator in a class 45 so no reason why you can't do it the other way.
 
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43096

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It's possible to just add gearing between the two. This was done on some Sulzer engines, the 750rpm engine was geared up to over 1000rpm to drive the generator in a class 45 so no reason why you can't do it the other way.
The other factor would be if the alternator, electrical system and traction motors can take the additional 600hp or so. If you were to just use the 60 as a shell you could put in the CAT, new alternator, electricals and do DC-to-AC conversion.
 

Richard Scott

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The other factor would be if the alternator, electrical system and traction motors can take the additional 600hp or so. If you were to just use the 60 as a shell you could put in the CAT, new alternator, electricals and do DC-to-AC conversion.
That's fairly easily sorted, debate the engine.
 

Doomotron

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Seems a slightly unhealthy situation, for a country to have virtually its entire freight haulage fleet dependent on a single engine manufacturer, not that re-engining some 60s would have much of an impact on that either way.
Why is that an unhealthy situation?
 

Roast Veg

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Why is that an unhealthy situation?
I assume the poster is implying that the UK would be affected by any supply chain issues, but the 710 is old enough and ubiquitous enough to the extent that third party manufacturers can almost certainly fabricate spare parts as needed already. If anything, the CAT engine is more of a risk in that regard.
 

43096

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I assume the poster is implying that the UK would be affected by any supply chain issues, but the 710 is old enough and ubiquitous enough to the extent that third party manufacturers can almost certainly fabricate spare parts as needed already. If anything, the CAT engine is more of a risk in that regard.
Although both the EMD 710 and the C175 engines are supported by the same parent company - Caterpillar.
 

hwl

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Yes I would assume it was something along those lines. Do 60s emit less or more emissions than sheds? If less, then isn't there a rule in place to prevent locomotives getting their engines swapped with a more thirsty engine?

And even bearing that in mind - the C175-16s are supposedly more powerful than the 710s as 3800hp rather than 3300hp
Three different emission variants of 710s fitted to 66 and 69s and two different turbo options on 60s so which set of emission are you comparing and are you worrying more about CO2 or air quality (NOx and PM ) when you define "emissions"?

So five engine permutations for three main emissions gives you 15 things to compare.

[Hint - there is no simple answer to your original question...]
 

Rail Quest

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which set of emission are you comparing and are you worrying more about CO2 or air quality (NOx and PM ) when you define "emissions"?

So five engine permutations for three main emissions gives you 15 things to compare.
Tbh, if the precise variants being compared are all in the same ball park, then to me, it doesn't really matter :)

My question essentially has two purposes:
1) Understand if an engine swap to a 710 or C175 would have a noticeable impact on general emissions
2) further my understanding on which engines are theoretically best for applications

But as illuded to before, if the variants and their marginal differences alter whats considered the most eco friendly, then I doubt there's much in it between em
 

hwl

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Tbh, if the precise variants being compared are all in the same ball park, then to me, it doesn't really matter :)

My question essentially has two purposes:
1) Understand if an engine swap to a 710 or C175 would have a noticeable impact on general emissions
2) further my understanding on which engines are theoretically best for applications

But as illuded to before, if the variants and their marginal differences alter whats considered the most eco friendly, then I doubt there's much in it between em
Some of the differences aren't marginal though and the directionality can be interesting though...

The sensible answer is a C175 with matching ("off the shelf") alternator from either ABB or VEM (the Marathon option is a bit underwhelming).
 

BRX

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I assume the poster is implying that the UK would be affected by any supply chain issues, but the 710 is old enough and ubiquitous enough to the extent that third party manufacturers can almost certainly fabricate spare parts as needed already. If anything, the CAT engine is more of a risk in that regard.
Yeah, maybe I am making assumptions based on how many modern products seem to work, where you are quite tied in to the manufacturer if you need spare parts and so on, and these assumptions don't apply in this particular case.
 

ExRes

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Reports on WNXX that there has been movement among the dead bodies at Toton, 60035, 045 & 049 have had through pipes fitted for movement while 60032, 048 & 093 (three of the twelve rumoured to be for Land Recovery) are now also piped up, that should release all twelve WQDA locos 012, 032, 036, 037, 048, 052, 068, 077, 078, 084, 089 & 093 for whatever fate awaits them
 

ic31420

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Reports on WNXX that there has been movement among the dead bodies at Toton, 60035, 045 & 049 have had through pipes fitted for movement while 60032, 048 & 093 (three of the twelve rumoured to be for Land Recovery) are now also piped up, that should release all twelve WQDA locos 012, 032, 036, 037, 048, 052, 068, 077, 078, 084, 089 & 093 for whatever fate awaits them
IIRC most of the last lot have the major engine failure.
 

randyrippley

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Some of the differences aren't marginal though and the directionality can be interesting though...

The sensible answer is a C175 with matching ("off the shelf") alternator from either ABB or VEM (the Marathon option is a bit underwhelming).
Caterpillar/Progress Rail advertise complete packages and kits for repowering old locos using 8 or 12-cyclinder EMD-710 engines plus alternator and new control systems.
There's a brochure downloadable from https://www.progressrail.com/en/Seg...comotives/RepoweredLocomotives/EMD710ECO.html

FEATURES​

  • Low emissions
  • Fuel savings up to 25%
  • Lube oil savings over 50%
  • Increased all-weather adhesion
  • 90% parts commonality with existing fleet
  • Predictable 184-day maintenance intervals
  • 30 years of demonstrated 710 engine reliability
  • Available as a kit or repowered locomotive

EM2000™ Microprocessor Control System
  • Excitation and load control
  • Adhesion control
  • Engine control
  • Diagnostic system
  • Archived unit history data

710ECO™ Repower Kit Contents
  • 8 or 12-cylinder 710 engine
  • AR10 / CA6 alternator
  • Separate loop aftercooling system
  • EM2000™ Microprocessor Control System
  • Automatic Engine Start Stop (AESS™)

TECHNICAL DETAILS​

Engine Model 8-710G3A-T3 / 12-710G3A-T3
Engine Type Two Cycle - 45o Vee
Brake Power 2,320 hp / 3,150 hp
Number of Cylinders 12-Aug
Displacement Per Cylinder 710 cu. in.
Compression Ratio 18:01
Bore and Stroke 9.06 x 11 in.
Fuel Injectors Elecronic Unit Injection
Charge Air Single Turbocharger
Low Idle Speed 200 rpm
Full Speed 904 rpm
Emissions Certification US EPA Tier 3 and EU Stage III A
Alternator AR10
Companion Alternator CA6
 

Wyrleybart

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D365

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EMD hasn't yet determined whether re-engineering is commercially viable; but we're already thinking about TOPS classifications..?
 

hwl

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Caterpillar/Progress Rail advertise complete packages and kits for repowering old locos using 8 or 12-cyclinder EMD-710 engines plus alternator and new control systems.
There's a brochure downloadable from https://www.progressrail.com/en/Seg...comotives/RepoweredLocomotives/EMD710ECO.html
I'm fully aware of what Progress offer and my comment was made with full knowledge.
That kit is effectively what the 69s got and is mostly aimed at 645 engine and matching alternator retrofits.
Which would result in a loss of power at the wheel and TE for the 60.
The C175 is better choice for emissions (Stage V instead of IIIA), fuel consumption and extra power compared to 710. With the C175 option available question might be asked on why the best emission option isn't being used and the story is that they got as many for 69s as they though they could (normally 1 standard behind is easy to get permission for so IIIA when IIIB was the current new standard is ok, but you would now have to aim for IIIB for retrofit)
The C175 family (V16 in Class 68 and DB-159, V20 not used in rail) is CAT's long term option for 2000-3200kW for providing electrical power for general electrical generation, rail (outside north America) and all the big mining truck (which have electrical transmission). It replaces the older CAT 35xx family.
The C175 is a much better match for the 60 and all the existing electrical systems and auxiliaries which is why Progress are looking at that option rather than 710 options.

In terms of 710 options, stripping some 67s might be cheaper
 

ExRes

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Reports on WNXX that there has been movement among the dead bodies at Toton, 60035, 045 & 049 have had through pipes fitted for movement while 60032, 048 & 093 (three of the twelve rumoured to be for Land Recovery) are now also piped up, that should release all twelve WQDA locos 012, 032, 036, 037, 048, 052, 068, 077, 078, 084, 089 & 093 for whatever fate awaits them

Further to that, WNXX update this morning that the twelve are being moved to the shed for removal of fluids, any name plates and 'weight reduction' so that they can be removed from site, begs the question removal to where? of course
 

Trainman40083

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Further to that, WNXX update this morning that the twelve are being moved to the shed for removal of fluids, any name plates and 'weight reduction' so that they can be removed from site, begs the question removal to where? of course
Presume the weight reduction is so they can get over the canal bridge in Sandiacre. Not the easiest of depots for removal of heavy locos by road.

All 100 are still extant, in one form or another. Though I wouldn't be surprised if 60081 becomes the first of the class to be cut up.
I'm sure at least one has already been cut up. Was it 60006
 
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D365

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Wikipedia states that 60060 was ”sold to metal recyclers”. Anyone know of its fate beyond that?
 

31160

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It seems that this list was issued in error and swiftly withdrawn, the 16 locos listed were

001/007/010/015/019/020/039/040/044/059/063/065/066/079/092/100
Yeah as rail quest says thats the ones that COULD make a come back as built instead of a re enging project
 

Rail Quest

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But they've already been rebuilt and they still keep breaking down! If Toton can't keep them going then who can?
I don't necessarily think DB got rid because their reliability was so poor they were falling off their wheels - they were withdrawn because increased maintenance costs over 66s is not a justified cost for a (arguably) dying business like DB. GBRF and DCR continue to demonstrate the locos can be workable.
 

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