December 2022 Timetable Changes

[Glenn1969]

Which requires Northern Powerhouse Rail, unless you're willing to close Whiston, Rainhill*, St Helens Jn**, Lea Green, Earlestown, Newton-le-Willows, Patricroft and Eccles to allow Chat Moss to only be for fast trains.

* This could never happen, given the historical connection it'd hit the Press just as hard as images of a certain viaduct in the Yorkshire Dales did. It's not an important station in particular, but it would be the heart of a campaign.
** You might get away with keeping one, probably this one.

And given that I don't think Core NPR includes Liverpool, I don't see it happening

 

[frodshamfella]

The long distance service used to go via Warrington Central, which would still seem the most preferred route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And given that I don't think Core NPR includes Liverpool, I don't see it happening

I believe, though it is hard to tell from the maps, that Core NPR involves using the freight-only Fiddlers Ferry line from Liverpool to Warrington (hence an upgraded line, not a new one), then a new line from Warrington to Manchester. Thus even that would relieve the CLC of express services, allowing it to be used for more local services. That fits with most of the maps showing it curving north to reach central Warrington - if Chat Moss or the CLC was used, it'd curve south.

 

[Liverpool 507]

It is extremely frustrating that Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay has been given the axe. The number of passengers using the currently hourly service between Liverpool and Crewe via Manchester means most services throughout the day and well in to the night time have passengers stood in vestibules and gangways.

 

[AMD]

It is extremely frustrating that Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay has been given the axe. The number of passengers using the currently hourly service between Liverpool and Crewe via Manchester means most services throughout the day and well in to the night time have passengers stood in vestibules and gangways.

Tbh the WBQ service wouldn't relieve the Chat Moss services much, as a large proportion of traffic on this route is through traffic from Liverpool to Manchester; the only real benefits of the WBQ service would be to give Whiston to Earlestown another stopper each hour (as they are down to 1tph). Another indicator of this is that the WBQ service was at the bottom of the pile in terms of revenue vs cost to run in the whole of the west side of Northern so unless Merseytravel want (and fund) this service there's not much likelyhood of it coming back any time soon in any frequent form.
What really needs to happen is for TPE to sort themselves out as they are meant to run 2tph Liverpool to Manchester, and for Northern to get the semi fast to the airport via CLC running every hour.

 

[geoffk]

What really needs to happen is for TPE to sort themselves out as they are meant to run 2tph Liverpool to Manchester, and for Northern to get the semi fast to the airport via CLC running every hour.

There are two in the December timetable, but one is via the CLC of course. Did you mean two via Chat Moss? I'm aware that the Scarborough was the second. Is that supposed to return to Liverpool. If not then surely there's a path for the Warrington BQ stopper.

 

[AMD]

There may be a path, but unless Merseytravel pay for it, it's not happening.

 

[Bikeman78]

When I first read that the Liverpool-Oxford Road stoppers were to be split at Warrington Central I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the decision was taken to allow an all-day hourly service calling at all stations towards Manchester rather than just at peak time. There was least some logic behind that as the stations you've mentioned above are in the middle of areas with a sizeable suburban population who would definitely benefit from a more frequent service.
However the currently proposed changes won't give any of the benefits of a more regular service to those stations and instead just shafts other stations like Hunts Cross, Halewood and Warrington West which will now lose their direct service to Manchester whilst other stations on the Liverpool end which previously enjoyed a half-hourly service to Manchester will see that halved beyond Warrington.

Urmston and Irlam are served by the TPE train to Cleethorpes but I wouldn't risk using that if my journey was at all important.

I still question the wisdom of having built it.

I can't believe that it's not half hourly. All that money spent and one of the stoppers doesn't stop. As discussed previously, 195s would be ideal on there.

 

[adrock1976]

Tbh the WBQ service wouldn't relieve the Chat Moss services much, as a large proportion of traffic on this route is through traffic from Liverpool to Manchester; the only real benefits of the WBQ service would be to give Whiston to Earlestown another stopper each hour (as they are down to 1tph). Another indicator of this is that the WBQ service was at the bottom of the pile in terms of revenue vs cost to run in the whole of the west side of Northern so unless Merseytravel want (and fund) this service there's not much likelyhood of it coming back any time soon in any frequent form.
What really needs to happen is for TPE to sort themselves out as they are meant to run 2tph Liverpool to Manchester, and for Northern to get the semi fast to the airport via CLC running every hour.

Being as the Liverpool - Warrington BQ is the only passenger train to use the left hand side of the triangle at Earlestown, if the passenger service does not ever get reinstated, would there have to be a formal closure process?

 

[berneyarms]

Being as the Liverpool - Warrington BQ is the only passenger train to use the left hand side of the triangle at Earlestown, if the passenger service does not ever get reinstated, would there have to be a formal closure process?

You’re forgetting the morning Liverpool Lime St to Ellesmere Port and evening return workings.

 

[adrock1976]

You’re forgetting the morning Liverpool Lime St to Ellesmere Port and evening return workings.

My apologies. I had forgot about those.

 

[cle]

Which requires Northern Powerhouse Rail, unless you're willing to close Whiston, Rainhill*, St Helens Jn**, Lea Green, Earlestown, Newton-le-Willows, Patricroft and Eccles to allow Chat Moss to only be for fast trains.

* This could never happen, given the historical connection it'd hit the Press just as hard as images of a certain viaduct in the Yorkshire Dales did. It's not an important station in particular, but it would be the heart of a campaign.
** You might get away with keeping one, probably this one or Earlestown.

I think a reasonable service could be pathed, the WBQ at least dropped off, vs a Manchester slow. It only needs 1tph more (one to Sheffield/Nottingham) - Cleethorpes could begin at Picc.

 

[Starmill]

That's an interesting crossover to the Portishead thread where it's being argued people won't use hourly services into and around major cities. This is two-hourly...

Funding is in place to run 2tph with this service, and it started running hourly in 2019. It also took just a small amount of capital spending to put a new crossover in to enable it, and that was that.

One of the reasons the service is well used currently is because it picks up people travelling between Chester and London. This traffic will disappear when through trains between Chester and London are back.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Changing at Runcorn? Interesting, is this because it's a very good connection so the planners show it? I would have thought Crewe would be the place to change.

I think a reasonable service could be pathed, the WBQ at least dropped off, vs a Manchester slow. It only needs 1tph more (one to Sheffield/Nottingham) - Cleethorpes could begin at Picc.

Well, it seems we are getting "base" NPR including the Fiddler's Ferry line, so perhaps a metro style CLC is on the cards...

 

[68011]

There are two in the December timetable, but one is via the CLC of course. Did you mean two via Chat Moss? I'm aware that the Scarborough was the second. Is that supposed to return to Liverpool. If not then surely there's a path for the Warrington BQ stopper.

There are 3 TPE workings an hour from Liverpool to Manchester, hourly to Hull, Newcastle & Cleethorpes although there's a gap of 2 hours on the latter route between the 12:19 & 14:19 as the 13:19 ex Liverpool runs as a Class 5 likewise the 09:26 ex Cleethorpes, these are the Class 68/Mk5a training paths.

 

[Bald Rick]

And given that I don't think Core NPR includes Liverpool, I don't see it happening

It does.

 

[Starmill]

Changing at Runcorn? Interesting, is this because it's a very good connection so the planners show it? I would have thought Crewe would be the place to change.

Avanti's reduced timetable generally doesn't provide a connection at Crewe, as has been much discussed here.

There are still some connections from the TfW services to Crewe.

 

[Bikeman78]

Changing at Runcorn? Interesting, is this because it's a very good connection so the planners show it? I would have thought Crewe would be the place to change.

From Chester it's a +9 at Runcorn on to the Euston train. Going the other way is a +55 so not very good at all. Catching the TfW train to Crewe is roughly a 25 minute connection to Euston with the same overall journey time as via Runcorn.

 

[geoffk]

There are 3 TPE workings an hour from Liverpool to Manchester, hourly to Hull, Newcastle & Cleethorpes although there's a gap of 2 hours on the latter route between the 12:19 & 14:19 as the 13:19 ex Liverpool runs as a Class 5 likewise the 09:26 ex Cleethorpes, these are the Class 68/Mk5a training paths.

Oh yes, sorry I'm a long way away now and there's a lot going on in Devon!

 

[frodshamfella]

Tbh the WBQ service wouldn't relieve the Chat Moss services much, as a large proportion of traffic on this route is through traffic from Liverpool to Manchester; the only real benefits of the WBQ service would be to give Whiston to Earlestown another stopper each hour (as they are down to 1tph). Another indicator of this is that the WBQ service was at the bottom of the pile in terms of revenue vs cost to run in the whole of the west side of Northern so unless Merseytravel want (and fund) this service there's not much likelyhood of it coming back any time soon in any frequent form.
What really needs to happen is for TPE to sort themselves out as they are meant to run 2tph Liverpool to Manchester, and for Northern to get the semi fast to the airport via CLC running every hour.

Just a thought could the WBQ service run onwards to Crewe, calling at Acton Bridge, Hartford and Winsford, thereby giving these stations a link to Warrington BQ

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just a thought could the WBQ service run onwards to Crewe, calling at Acton Bridge, Hartford and Winsford, thereby giving these stations a link to Warrington BQ

That would be an interesting option to speed up the LNR Birmingham by removing those calls from that, as it would give them a direct service to both Liverpool and Crewe, and they could change at the latter for Birmingham twice an hour rather than once. Also means there'd be more than 1tph between Crewe and Warrington. I like that.

 

[The Planner]

Just a thought could the WBQ service run onwards to Crewe, calling at Acton Bridge, Hartford and Winsford, thereby giving these stations a link to Warrington BQ

You would need a 29 minute gap if you were running fast line, 20 odd minutes if you popped out and in at Winsford on the slows to not get run down by anything running north of Weaver.

 

[cle]

Changing at Runcorn? Interesting, is this because it's a very good connection so the planners show it? I would have thought Crewe would be the place to change.



Well, it seems we are getting "base" NPR including the Fiddler's Ferry line, so perhaps a metro style CLC is on the cards...

Perhaps! I’d support a high frequency electric route - but where to send/turn them in Manchester?! A new Cornbrook station with two bays and limited through trains (and a free Met transfer?)

Other than that, all for it. And that’s why I prefer the Met/Merseyrail split. All about frequency and uniformity for a route like this.

That would be an interesting option to speed up the LNR Birmingham by removing those calls from that, as it would give them a direct service to both Liverpool and Crewe, and they could change at the latter for Birmingham twice an hour rather than once. Also means there'd be more than 1tph between Crewe and Warrington. I like that.

I like the routing but it would be incredibly slow for Hartford etc to Liverpool. Useful for heading south and north though - and Manchester Vic. Maybe a smart end to end service though, with a few purposes. The WCML does need more ‘local’ service if can be pathed.

Might we still see Birmingham-Liverpool on HS2 now NPR got the nod? Could enable the current service to remain semi.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps! I’d support a high frequency electric route - but where to send/turn them in Manchester?! A new Cornbrook station with two bays and limited through trains (and a free Met transfer?)

Southport into Vic and the two TPEs onto NPR (or curtailed at Picc) and you could probably turn 4tph at Oxford Road, particularly if the centre turnback was implemented.

 

[frodshamfella]

That would be an interesting option to speed up the LNR Birmingham by removing those calls from that, as it would give them a direct service to both Liverpool and Crewe, and they could change at the latter for Birmingham twice an hour rather than once. Also means there'd be more than 1tph between Crewe and Warrington. I like that.

although I think those stations ( and I speak as someone who does use Acton Bridge) between Crewe and Runcorn, if the journey time is significantly more via WBQ it would not go down well, quite a bit of commuter traffic to Liverpool from the intermediate stations. What would be needed is the second Birmingham reinstated, allow one to stop and one speeded up.

 

[cle]

Southport into Vic and the two TPEs onto NPR (or curtailed at Picc) and you could probably turn 4tph at Oxford Road, particularly if the centre turnback was implemented.

Yeah that would work, we shouldn't have diesels through Castlefield really. Southport pairs with diesel (Calder) neatly.

Maybe 4tph turn at Oxford Road and 2tph go to the Airport. You could have a semi-fast 2tph and 4tph stoppers if electric, I reckon.

Leaves another 6-7tph for Castlefield...?

although I think those stations ( and I speak as someone who does use Acton Bridge) between Crewe and Runcorn, if the journey time is significantly more via WBQ it would not go down well, quite a bit of commuter traffic to Liverpool from the intermediate stations. What would be needed is the second Birmingham reinstated, allow one to stop and one speeded up.

Yep I agree. A fast and a slow Birmingham-Liverpool make more sense. As for which of the more middle/regional stations deserve 2tph, like say Hartford, I'm not sure.

 

[geoffk]

Have been looking at RTT for December and most of the Piccadilly - Hazel Grove and peak-hour Victoria - Wigan via Chat Moss trains are shown as diesel units. Is this just for pathing reasons, i.e. a 75mph schedule?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hazel Grove is DMU as it is inter working with Buxton I believe.

 

[175001]

The Vic-Wigan is down as a 319

Little snippets from our internal briefing...

331s appearing on Chat Moss working, some Crewe's, and some Stoke's

Only 158 work on the west to be seen on Leeds - Wigan Wallgate. Morecambe too of course

Diagrams for next month are available here

Unit Diagrams December 2022 - a Freedom of Information request to Northern Trains Limited

It would be grateful if you could please forward a complete set of the (LTP) unit diagrams valid from the December 2022 timetable change. Yours faithfully, Aaron Roscoe

www.whatdotheyknow.com

 

[mangyiscute]

edit - was wrong