December 2022 Timetable Changes

[D6130]

Only 158 work on the west to be seen on Leeds - Wigan Wallgate. Morecambe too of course

Is that not also the case now?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is that not also the case now?

They occasionally pop up on the Ormskirk/Blackpool S/Colne circuit.

 

[Philip]

I think running the Cleethorpes through to Liverpool is a mistake; this Stockport-Oxford Road path would be more beneficial to local passengers if it was part of a Hazel Grove/Stoke/Crewe to Blackpool service. Removing the direct service between Bolton/Salford and forcing passengers to change at the overcrowded Piccadilly or Oxford Road is inconvenient. Bolton and Chorley are already inundated with Airport services, what they need is something to south Manchester.

Sheffield already has a Liverpool service provided by EMR; the TPE Cleethorpes would be fine terminating at Piccadilly as it has been doing over the last couple of years. A better way to have done this would have been to have reinstated the Northern semi-fast between the Airport and Liverpool via Warrington.

 

[Killingworth]

I think running the Cleethorpes through to Liverpool is a mistake; this Stockport-Oxford Road path would be more beneficial to local passengers if it was part of a Hazel Grove/Stoke/Crewe to Blackpool service. Removing the direct service between Bolton/Salford and forcing passengers to change at the overcrowded Piccadilly or Oxford Road is inconvenient. Bolton and Chorley are already inundated with Airport services, what they need is something to south Manchester.

Sheffield already has a Liverpool service provided by EMR; the TPE Cleethorpes would be fine terminating at Piccadilly as it has been doing over the last couple of years. A better way to have done this would have been to have reinstated the Northern semi-fast between the Airport and Liverpool via Warrington.

Given that TPE are struggling to operate more than 50% of their scheduled trains between Cleethorpes and Manchester it takes a massive leap of faith to see them through to Liverpool. What's more they're having difficulty keeping to the timetable for the shorter route when they do run.

Of course this complete recast through Manchester is supposed to improve things. I really, really hope it does. If it doesn't we'll be trying again by 2024/5. I suspect this route may be revised.

 

[frodshamfella]

I think running the Cleethorpes through to Liverpool is a mistake; this Stockport-Oxford Road path would be more beneficial to local passengers if it was part of a Hazel Grove/Stoke/Crewe to Blackpool service. Removing the direct service between Bolton/Salford and forcing passengers to change at the overcrowded Piccadilly or Oxford Road is inconvenient. Bolton and Chorley are already inundated with Airport services, what they need is something to south Manchester.

Sheffield already has a Liverpool service provided by EMR; the TPE Cleethorpes would be fine terminating at Piccadilly as it has been doing over the last couple of years. A better way to have done this would have been to have reinstated the Northern semi-fast between the Airport and Liverpool via Warrington.

But the EMR servi ce is rammed out of Liverpool another West - East service is needed.

Funding is in place to run 2tph with this service, and it started running hourly in 2019. It also took just a small amount of capital spending to put a new crossover in to enable it, and that was that.

One of the reasons the service is well used currently is because it picks up people travelling between Chester and London. This traffic will disappear when through trains between Chester and London are back.

If you are talking about the Chester to Lime Strret service via Runcorn, that isn't the case. The majority of passengers using this service are alighting at Liverpool South Parkway or Liverpool Lime Street.

 

[Philip]

Given that TPE are struggling to operate more than 50% of their scheduled trains between Cleethorpes and Manchester it takes a massive leap of faith to see them through to Liverpool. What's more they're having difficulty keeping to the timetable for the shorter route when they do run.

Of course this complete recast through Manchester is supposed to improve things. I really, really hope it does. If it doesn't we'll be trying again by 2024/5. I suspect this route may be revised.

Having it go through Oxford Road and Castlefield is likely to reduce reliability to an extent, even if the new timetable does improve capacity.

But the EMR servi ce is rammed out of Liverpool another West - East service is needed.

This can be catered for by Northern reinstating their Man Airport service, it doesn't need to go to Sheffield.

 

[td97]

Is that not also the case now?

They occasionally pop up on the Ormskirk/Blackpool S/Colne circuit.

There are also booked 158s on the first Blackburn to Rochdale and the 2142 Rochdale to Clitheroe. Quite often neither end up with the booked traction though.

 

[175001]

Is that not also the case now?

No, they appear on East Lancs services regularly. Blackpool and Blackburn to lose 158 traction off their cards from December.

 

[The Planner]

Having it go through Oxford Road and Castlefield is likely to reduce reliability to an extent, even if the new timetable does improve capacity.


This can be catered for by Northern reinstating their Man Airport service, it doesn't need to go to Sheffield.

Surely the TPE service relieves both EMR and Northern, in particular the Hope Valley stopper which can get overwhelmed? How do you deal with lost CLC service the TPE provides?

 

[Philip]

Surely the TPE service relieves both EMR and Northern, in particular the Hope Valley stopper which can get overwhelmed? How do you deal with lost CLC service the TPE provides?

It doesn't need to be the TPE service on the CLC line, until last year there was a semi-fast Northern Liverpool to Man Airport service running in the same path as the South TPE service will be doing. It seems a better use of resources for all concerned to reinstate this Northern service (with additional stops at Urmston and Irlam) rather than extending the TPE beyond Manchester to Liverpool. Not sure Sheffield passengers will be too impressed that both of the fast services will be dropping them off on platform 14 at Piccadilly either, they'll miss the ease of use and convenience of the main shed!

It wouldn't make any difference either way to the Hope Valley as the TPE would still be operating from Manchester Picc eastwards. In fact I think extending the TPE to Liverpool is more likely to have a negative impact on the Hope Valley line because it is more likely to pick up delays than it would if starting/terminating at Piccadilly. Similarly the CLC could suffer more so with both expresses coming all the way from the East Coast/Norfolk.

 

[geoffk]

The Vic-Wigan is down as a 319

In the afternoon. Diesel in the morning according to RTT.

No, they appear on East Lancs services regularly. Blackpool and Blackburn to lose 158 traction off their cards from December.

Is Blackpool - York all 195s now?

 

[sjm77]

I think some forum members maybe late to the party. Sure, there are plus points for a CLC semi fast to Manchester Airport, however all these arguments have already been done in the Manchester Taskforce consultation thread many times over, one year ago! The consultation heard from local authorities, metro mayors and people like us. The result is now known, decisions have been confirmed and we need to get on with it.

 

[eastwestdivide]

In fact I think extending the TPE to Liverpool is more likely to have a negative impact on the Hope Valley line because it is more likely to pick up delays than it would if starting/terminating at Piccadilly

I reckon most hours eastbound from Liverpool, it's the EM service (not the TP) that departs Manchester ahead of the Northern Hope Valley stopper. So in terms of late running through Manchester, delays on the EM service are more likely to cause the Northern service a delay (waiting for it at the junction at New Mills).
Typically eastbound at New Mills S Junction: EM at xx05-ish, Northern stopper at xx18-ish, TP at xx33-ish.

 

[175001]

In the afternoon. Diesel in the morning according to RTT.

Is Blackpool - York all 195s now?

Attached is the unit diagram. All 319s.

Blackpool - York has been solid 195s for a few years now.

 

[Iskra]

It doesn't need to be the TPE service on the CLC line, until last year there was a semi-fast Northern Liverpool to Man Airport service running in the same path as the South TPE service will be doing. It seems a better use of resources for all concerned to reinstate this Northern service (with additional stops at Urmston and Irlam) rather than extending the TPE beyond Manchester to Liverpool. Not sure Sheffield passengers will be too impressed that both of the fast services will be dropping them off on platform 14 at Piccadilly either, they'll miss the ease of use and convenience of the main shed!

It wouldn't make any difference either way to the Hope Valley as the TPE would still be operating from Manchester Picc eastwards. In fact I think extending the TPE to Liverpool is more likely to have a negative impact on the Hope Valley line because it is more likely to pick up delays than it would if starting/terminating at Piccadilly. Similarly the CLC could suffer more so with both expresses coming all the way from the East Coast/Norfolk.

As a Sheffield passenger, I prefer to be on 14 as I'm usually heading onwards beyond Manchester. The Northern service that terminates in the trainshed is more annoying to me. If anyone is really that bothered about this extremely minor issue, they can choose the Northern service instead. An additional Liverpool makes sense to me as the existing Liverpool-Sheffield services are extremely popular.

 

[Philip]

As a Sheffield passenger, I prefer to be on 14 as I'm usually heading onwards beyond Manchester. The Northern service that terminates in the trainshed is more annoying to me. If anyone is really that bothered about this extremely minor issue, they can choose the Northern service instead. An additional Liverpool makes sense to me as the existing Liverpool-Sheffield services are extremely popular.

It might be more convenient for yourself, but the majority of Sheffield-Manchester passengers get off/on at Piccadilly and do not travel beyond Manchester, so extending to Liverpool will potentially disrupt performance and will definitely make getting on and off at Manchester more inconvenient. There is already an hourly Liverpool service provided by EMR, it's been hourly for decades and generally worked well so I don't know why they feel they need to make it half hourly, considering the potential performance risk as well as removing local connections across Manchester such as Bolton/Salford to Stockport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It might be more convenient for yourself, but the majority of Sheffield-Manchester passengers get off/on at Piccadilly and do not travel beyond Manchester, so extending to Liverpool will potentially disrupt performance and will definitely make getting on and off at Manchester more inconvenient. There is already an hourly Liverpool service provided by EMR, it's been hourly for decades and generally worked well so I don't know why they feel they need to make it half hourly, considering the potential performance risk as well as removing local connections across Manchester such as Bolton/Salford to Stockport.

Prior to the pratting about caused by the building of that white elephant across Salford, the CLC pattern was two fasts (Norwich and a TPE), a Liverpool to Airport semifast and stoppers in various forms. Since these were lopped back the Chat Moss stopper (which had gone from Vic for years prior to said pratting about) moved to Picc and has had an overcrowding problem. This is all very unsatisfactory and does need something doing about it.

The Southport argument has been done to death, but Liverpool is a major city and definitely does deserve a quality service to both sides.

 

[Greybeard33]

Prior to the pratting about caused by the building of that white elephant across Salford, the CLC pattern was two fasts (Norwich and a TPE), a Liverpool to Airport semifast and stoppers in various forms. Since these were lopped back the Chat Moss stopper (which had gone from Vic for years prior to said pratting about) moved to Picc and has had an overcrowding problem. This is all very unsatisfactory and does need something doing about it.

The Southport argument has been done to death, but Liverpool is a major city and definitely does deserve a quality service to both sides.

Before May 2018, the Northern Liverpool to Airport used to run on the Chat Moss line. It moved to the CLC line in place of the TPE Scarborough service, which used to cross Piccadilly throat.

The overcrowding on the Northern Chat Moss stopper should be mitigated by TPE running 3tph between Liverpool and Manchester (2 Chat Moss, 1 CLC) In place of the current 1tph.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends when before 2018. Perhaps it was pre electrification rather than pre Ordsall. Pre electrification the Chat Moss services all went to Vic.

But that is all a bit by the by. What is important is that we can debate Southport until blue in the face but there is a need for 2tph fast (Warrington C plus one other) from Castlefield to Liverpool. Which is what moving the Cleethorpes over is for (though it will have a couple of extra stops).

 

[LowLevel]

Depends when before 2018. Perhaps it was pre electrification rather than pre Ordsall. Pre electrification the Chat Moss services all went to Vic.

But that is all a bit by the by. What is important is that we can debate Southport until blue in the face but there is a need for 2tph fast (Warrington C plus one other) from Castlefield to Liverpool. Which is what moving the Cleethorpes over is for (though it will have a couple of extra stops).

The Chat Moss services certainly didn't all go to Vic pre electrification - the slow one did, but for years there was a Lime St to Airport express every hour that only stopped if I remember rightly at Newton le Willows, St Helens Junction and maybe Earlestown en route. It was booked a 156 but I have slightly terrifying memories of catching it for route learning one day with a 142 vice, going into full shopping trolley mode through the old Huyton Junction was quite something! I've only ever worked on the route on weekend or short notice diversions so I didn't have much to do with it, but certainly the slows went to Victoria and the fasts via Oxford Road to the Airport.

 

[Philip]

But that is all a bit by the by. What is important is that we can debate Southport until blue in the face but there is a need for 2tph fast (Warrington C plus one other) from Castlefield to Liverpool. Which is what moving the Cleethorpes over is for (though it will have a couple of extra stops).

I agree that the CLC should have two reasonably fast services between Liverpool and Manchester. I just think that they've chosen the wrong service for it - the Liverpool to Man Airport via Warrington worked well until it was withdrawn as it didn't have to cross the Piccadilly throat. I don't know why they couldn't have just reinstated this and left the Cleethorpes and Blackpool-Hazel Grove services as they are.

 

[Class 170101]

Their drivers lost all route knowledge of Paddington when the "New North Main Line" to Old Oak Common closed.

With the route not being cleared for DOO, it was never a particularly practical diversionary route anyway. I think the most you could hope for would be for the Chiltern platforms at Old Oak Common to be built, but that's still many years away from fruition.

It serves no useful purpose so I'm not surprised. In the event they cannot get into Marylebone then West Ruisip is a perfectly sensible alternative with LUL onwards

I would argue at weekends the GWR Greenford shuttle should be suspended to allow Chiltern access to West Ealing, when Marylebone is closed, calling at the intermediate stations except Greenford to enable interchange at West Ealing for Crossrail.

In terms of the Bay at West Ealing isn't there a problem with double docking from December as the line is being naded over to a battery train with West Ealing bay having a battery charger inserted at the end of the bay which takes up space currently used by the second train?

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I would argue at weekends the GWR Greenford shuttle should be suspended to allow Chiltern access to West Ealing, when Marylebone is closed, calling at the intermediate stations except Greenford to enable interchange at West Ealing for Crossrail.

That wouldn’t really be feasible as the Chiltern fleet doesn’t have any form of SDO so would be limited in length to 2 cars to fit into Castle Bar Park.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That wouldn’t really be feasible as the Chiltern fleet doesn’t have any form of SDO so would be limited in length to 2 cars to fit into Castle Bar Park.

I'd encourage it simply without the Greenford line calls. Frankly, who gives one if Castle Bar Park and Drayton Green have bus replacement for a day? They're, along with South Greenford, three of the oddest, most pointless stations going.

 

[Greybeard33]

I agree that the CLC should have two reasonably fast services between Liverpool and Manchester. I just think that they've chosen the wrong service for it - the Liverpool to Man Airport via Warrington worked well until it was withdrawn as it didn't have to cross the Piccadilly throat. I don't know why they couldn't have just reinstated this and left the Cleethorpes and Blackpool-Hazel Grove services as they are.

The changes are to improve performance through the Castlefield corridor. I believe the Blackpool - Hazel Grove service requires a crew change at Oxford Road, which is a performance risk. Extending the Cleethorpes service to Liverpool improves connectivity between Sheffield and Manchester Airport (cross platform change at Piccadilly 13/14), which was a key ask from S Yorkshire stakeholders. Reversing the Cleethorpes service at Piccadilly to go direct to the Airport, as per the pre-Covid timetable, would have been a bigger performance risk.

 

[mcnw35282]

It is extremely frustrating that Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay has been given the axe. The number of passengers using the currently hourly service between Liverpool and Crewe via Manchester means most services throughout the day and well in to the night time have passengers stood in vestibules and gangways.

One train per hour from St Helens Junction to Liverpool is a pish take of the highest order.

 

[InkyScrolls]

As a converse example, the Skipton/Ilkley to Bradford (Forster Square) services going back to 2tph is entirely unnecessary and will only worsen the delays on the chronically unreliable 'Triangle' services.

 

[D6130]

Blackpool - York has been solid 195s for a few years now.

Is Blackpool - York all 195s now?

In theory yes, but short notice substitutions are not unknown. For example, last Tuesday my wife caught the 07 23 York-Blackpool North from Hebden Bridge to Preston and it was formed of two car 158 796.

 

[Halish Railway]

As a converse example, the Skipton/Ilkley to Bradford (Forster Square) services going back to 2tph is entirely unnecessary and will only worsen the delays on the chronically unreliable 'Triangle' services.

They’re not chronically unreliable.

 

[Killingworth]

Surely the TPE service relieves both EMR and Northern, in particular the Hope Valley stopper which can get overwhelmed? How do you deal with lost CLC service the TPE provides?

The Hope Valley stopper gets overwhelmed when the fasts are cancelled, short formed, or very late. (Lower fares currently help to keep them busier too. Leisure users are less bothered about speed, more about price.)