December 2023 Timetable Change

[JonathanH]

Restoring both the Hounslow loop services and 4tph via Epsom is entirely possible with the units currently available as these services all run during the peak with the units sitting in sidings during the day.

Account needs to be taken of maintenance schedules and mileage to overhaul when making comments about units which sit idle during the day.

 

[swr444]

the thing is you'd end up having the windsor and kingston rounder services calling there within 5 mins of each other, defeating the object of a turn up and go service as you'd end up with a large gap and then 2 trains within 5 min

I think the Windsor services should additionally stop at Mortlake (irrespective of the Hounslow loop services returning). For its usage and location, even its old 4tph service is quite low but 2tph is ridiculous, and it is worth improving the service even if it adds a couple of minutes to the Windsor services.

Restoring both the Hounslow loop services and 4tph via Epsom is entirely possible with the units currently available as these services all run during the peak with the units sitting in sidings during the day.

 

[43074]

Non-stop. I suspect performance and the journey times are at the mercy of conflicting trains coming from the Selby diversion.

I believe they have stops at Sherburn-in-Elmet, not sure if they will be passenger calls from the start of the timetable though

 

[Ianigsy]

Presumably will have to call at both Lea Green and Newton le Willows, so misses it's path at Victoria and has an approx 15 minute dwell time eastbound for the next path.

I think there was also an element of balancing the two services from Manchester to the north-east so they didn’t depart within 15 minutes of each other.

As a more or less monthly traveller between Leeds and Liverpool, this is frustrating but a lot depends on the time past the hour that the Liverpool train leaves Leeds and what opportunities are available by changing in Manchester. At the moment I can leave work at 4pm, catch a 1630 train and be in Lime Street for 1759. If that train moves to, say, 1600 or 1615 then it could be nearer 1900.

 

[AndrewE]

I think there was also an element of balancing the two services from Manchester to the north-east so they didn’t depart within 15 minutes of each other.

Pity it's not considered worth applying the same care to WCML services south from Liverpool: 2 per hour all day, but generally within 10 minutes of each other.

 

[1018509]

Reinstating X Country services stopping at Brockenhurst?

 

[PGAT]

Reinstating X Country services stopping at Brockenhurst?

Unfortunately not

 

[sjpowermac]

I am very sad to see the TPE massacre of their north route timetable. Taken from a little earlier in the thread, the pathetic 2024 off peak hourly service is apparently:

• Newcastle – Liverpool Lime Street
• Scarborough – York
• Saltburn – Manchester Airport
• Hull – Manchester Piccadilly calling all stations Leeds to Huddersfield
• Manchester Piccadilly – Huddersfield stopper

For historical comparison, I've attached extracts of the standard off peak patterns in the May 2007 and May 2016 timetables to illustrate just how far backwards they are taking things.

A truly shocking state of affairs. I’m just grateful that on a personal level I will have no reason at all to use TPE services post-December 2023!

 

[Kite159]

No doubt Northern will see another rise in passenger numbers on their own Leeds to Manchester services. Journey might take longer* but at least they get a better chance of a seat if starting from Leeds (or even Manchester). Plus it will be cheaper than trying to squeeze onto a single 185 when it rolls in from Saltburn.

(* although the 'semifast' Northern might take a similar time compared to that Hull - Manchester service which calls at all stations to Huddersfield depending when the times get uploaded onto RTT)

 

[Blindtraveler]

I haven't read the full thing or indeed what ever kind of excuse TransPennine express are going to trot out for this downgrade but they're not still trying to use the comma passengers aren't travelling after the pandemic, excuse I hope as there is now so much evidence to the contrary even at commuter times that they said no longer existed that I would have thought the trade descriptions people would have jumped on it. But we're going to see overcrowding the like of which we've never seen before on these trains and it's only a matter of time and until as a serious incident in my view

 

[Iskra]

I haven't read the full thing or indeed what ever kind of excuse TransPennine express are going to trot out for this downgrade but they're not still trying to use the comma passengers aren't travelling after the pandemic, excuse I hope as there is now so much evidence to the contrary even at commuter times that they said no longer existed that I would have thought the trade descriptions people would have jumped on it. But we're going to see overcrowding the like of which we've never seen before on these trains and it's only a matter of time and until as a serious incident in my view

Overcrowding on TP has been the norm for decades now, Covid was the exception.

I think we need to start seeing accountability for failure and wasting public funds. No other business would tolerate such consistently poor performance.

 

[sjpowermac]

Overcrowding on TP has been the norm for decades now, Covid was the exception.

I think we need to start seeing accountability for failure and wasting public funds. No other business would tolerate such consistently poor performance.

I fully agree.

The chances of that happening though are pretty much zero. There are already checks and balances in place…

“The Rail North Partnership is the team which acts on behalf of Transport for the North and the Department for Transport to manage Northern and TransPennine rail franchises.”

Yet another organisation not taking the slightest bit of interest in actually doing their job.

 

[Bantamzen]

I am very sad to see the TPE massacre of their north route timetable. Taken from a little earlier in the thread, the pathetic 2024 off peak hourly service is apparently:

• Newcastle – Liverpool Lime Street
• Scarborough – York
• Saltburn – Manchester Airport
• Hull – Manchester Piccadilly calling all stations Leeds to Huddersfield
• Manchester Piccadilly – Huddersfield stopper

For historical comparison, I've attached extracts of the standard off peak patterns in the May 2007 and May 2016 timetables to illustrate just how far backwards they are taking things.

A truly shocking state of affairs. I’m just grateful that on a personal level I will have no reason at all to use TPE services post-December 2023!

I wish I could say the same, I used to rely on TPE for getting to see family in Cheshire. These days Northern get my business, at least they actually try.

The worst thing of all is that we all know even this won't stick. At the first sign of trouble the 10pm and in-day cancellations will kick in and we'll be left with the same old crap that the North TP has been plagued with. At this rate NR may as well stop the TRU work as TPE seem grimly determined to run as few trains as they can get away with.

 

[jonesy3001]

I do prefer northern when it comes to travelling between leeds and manchester, can guarantee you'll get a seat on the train as well.

 

[AndrewE]

The chances of that happening though are pretty much zero. There are already checks and balances in place…

“The Rail North Partnership is the team which acts on behalf of Transport for the North and the Department for Transport to manage Northern and TransPennine rail franchises.”

Yet another organisation not taking the slightest bit of interest in actually doing their job.

I wish I could say the same, I used to rely on TPE for getting to see family in Cheshire. These days Northern get my business, at least they actually try.

The worst thing of all is that we all know even this won't stick. At the first sign of trouble the 10pm and in-day cancellations will kick in and we'll be left with the same old crap that the North TP has been plagued with. At this rate NR may as well stop the TRU work as TPE seem grimly determined to run as few trains as they can get away with.

Put it down to the Treasury and their political masters who want to be able to offer tax cuts before the next election. They don't give a toss about the consequences or conditions in the country beyond their own travel-to-work area. There are parallels in different fields: https://www.theguardian.com/educati...es-for-north-south-exam-divide?CMP=GTUK_email (Ex-schools tsar blames Tories for north-south exam divide)

The former schools recovery tsar, Sir Kevan Collins, has blamed the government’s failure to back his catch-up plan for the stark north-south divide in last week’s GCSE results.
While more than 28.4% of entries received the top grades of 7-9 in London, only 17.6% got these scores in the north-east and 18.6% in the north-west of England. A-levels results showed a similar picture. While in London 30% of A-level grades were graded A or A*, in the north-east it was 22% and in the north-west 24%.
Collins told the Observer this weekend that his “greatest fear” after Covid was that without proper investment gaps would widen between children in the north and south, and between the least and most privileged.
He resigned two years ago as schools recovery commissioner when ministers agreed to fund only 10% of the £15bn package he said was vital to boost school education nationwide in the wake of the Covid pandemic.

 

[Bantamzen]

Put it down to the Treasury and their political masters who want to be able to offer tax cuts before the next election. They don't give a toss about the consequences or conditions in the country beyond their own travel-to-work area. There are parallels in different fields: https://www.theguardian.com/educati...es-for-north-south-exam-divide?CMP=GTUK_email (Ex-schools tsar blames Tories for north-south exam divide)

I'm not sure how you can line up this week's GCSE results with TPE's poor performance. I'm no fan of the Tories, the last 13 years have been nothing but a crapfest, but from what I read, hear and see TPE's problems go a lot deeper and have been festering for many years. The TPE route should be an easy win, lots of people use it everyday so filling trains isn't going to be an issue yet the industry somehow has contrived to make it an absolute disaster. Yes DfT have some responsibility, but judging by comments I've seen from staff here there is a deep running toxic atmosphere throughout that company. And with a toxic environment there comes problems. I don't know why or how it came about, but clearly there are deep issues in that company.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Excuse me for possibly missing it, but have the Avanti changes gone in yet? If so is there anything significant particularly on the Scottish end of things and also return of third Birmingham train?

 

[JonathanH]

Excuse me for possibly missing it, but have the Avanti changes gone in yet? If so is there anything significant particularly on the Scottish end of things and also return of third Birmingham train?

Avanti is published and there is no significant change.

 

[sjpowermac]

I'm not sure how you can line up this week's GCSE results with TPE's poor performance. I'm no fan of the Tories, the last 13 years have been nothing but a crapfest, but from what I read, hear and see TPE's problems go a lot deeper and have been festering for many years. The TPE route should be an easy win, lots of people use it everyday so filling trains isn't going to be an issue yet the industry somehow has contrived to make it an absolute disaster. Yes DfT have some responsibility, but judging by comments I've seen from staff here there is a deep running toxic atmosphere throughout that company. And with a toxic environment there comes problems. I don't know why or how it came about, but clearly there are deep issues in that company.

I agree with that. It would be interesting to see where demand would have been by now with even a moderately competent operator in charge.

Looking back to 2018 (ish) there was plenty of debate on the forum as to whether 5 coach Nova trains would be sufficient. Ah, those heady days…

 

[AndrewE]

I'm not sure how you can line up this week's GCSE results with TPE's poor performance. I'm no fan of the Tories, the last 13 years have been nothing but a crapfest, but from what I read, hear and see TPE's problems go a lot deeper and have been festering for many years. The TPE route should be an easy win, lots of people use it everyday so filling trains isn't going to be an issue yet the industry somehow has contrived to make it an absolute disaster. Yes DfT have some responsibility, but judging by comments I've seen from staff here there is a deep running toxic atmosphere throughout that company. And with a toxic environment there comes problems. I don't know why or how it came about, but clearly there are deep issues in that company.

I would say that it is part of the same deliberate underfunding of the public realm - or are TPE uniquely incompetent and wasteful?

I am as angry as anybody else about the poor service that we get - not only on the railway - but I try to remind myself that the (too few) staff are usually fighting with one hand tied behind their backs ands that when things reach a certain point on the way down, then there is no room for maneouvre.
Same is happening at the Land Registry - and wrecking people's lives there too. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2...ket-after-two-year-delays-at-uk-land-registry

Homeowners left out of pocket after two-year delays at UK Land Registry​

Administrative hold-ups leave buyers missing best mortgage deals and some owners unable to sell

 

[Bantamzen]

I would say that it is part of the same deliberate underfunding of the public realm - or are TPE uniquely incompetent and wasteful?

I am as angry as anybody else about the poor service that we get - not only on the railway - but I try to remind myself that the (too few) staff are usually fighting with one hand tied behind their backs ands that when things reach a certain point on the way down, then there is no room for maneouvre.
Same is happening at the Land Registry - and wrecking people's lives there too. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2...ket-after-two-year-delays-at-uk-land-registry

Well clearly someone messed up at TPE. We're told that a lot of the issues are around staffing levels and training, so why weren't these resolved during the covid restrictions when fewer people were travelling. It seems to me that this would have been the perfect time to upskill crews on the new units and start to recruit and train new staff to replace those that were coming to the ends of their careers. But instead of having all the crews and units available (subject to the dispute being resolved), TP are cutting back services and mothballing perfectly good trains. The DfT need to get their fingers out that's for sure, but they are far from alone in the blame.

 

[AndrewE]

Well clearly someone messed up at TPE. We're told that a lot of the issues are around staffing levels and training, so why weren't these resolved during the covid restrictions when fewer people were travelling. It seems to me that this would have been the perfect time to upskill crews on the new units and start to recruit and train new staff to replace those that were coming to the ends of their careers. But instead of having all the crews and units available (subject to the dispute being resolved), TP are cutting back services and mothballing perfectly good trains. The DfT need to get their fingers out that's for sure, but they are far from alone in the blame.

but doesn't all that apply equally to Avanti? The Birmingham Glasgows are still mostly cut back to Preston and they are currently running a reduced timetable elsewhere too (because of staffing levels.)

 

[sjpowermac]

but doesn't all that apply equally to Avanti? The Birmingham Glasgows are still mostly cut back to Preston and they are currently running a reduced timetable elsewhere too (because of staffing levels.)

At least Avanti have not binned off Pendolinos and returned to Class 90/Mk3 sets

 

[Bantamzen]

but doesn't all that apply equally to Avanti? The Birmingham Glasgows are still mostly cut back to Preston and they are currently running a reduced timetable elsewhere too (because of staffing levels.)

Yep. And Northern too, they've cut back services for the same reason. There's something of a theme here, wouldn't you agree? The railway industry, to coin an often used phrase, is not fit for purpose these days. Way too much goes wrong regardless of who operates services these days, something has to change. I just wish I knew what.

 

[Greybeard33]

Well clearly someone messed up at TPE. We're told that a lot of the issues are around staffing levels and training, so why weren't these resolved during the covid restrictions when fewer people were travelling. It seems to me that this would have been the perfect time to upskill crews on the new units and start to recruit and train new staff to replace those that were coming to the ends of their careers. But instead of having all the crews and units available (subject to the dispute being resolved), TP are cutting back services and mothballing perfectly good trains. The DfT need to get their fingers out that's for sure, but they are far from alone in the blame.

A question in my mind: does the TPE December timetable utilise all of the 185 and 802 fleets (following withdrawal of the Mk5As)? Or are some units being held back for ECS driver route training diagrams (including the diversionary routes needed for TRU)?

If the latter, there might be scope for some timetable restoration in future years when the training backlog has been cleared.

 

[The exile]

Well clearly someone messed up at TPE. We're told that a lot of the issues are around staffing levels and training, so why weren't these resolved during the covid restrictions when fewer people were travelling. It seems to me that this would have been the perfect time to upskill crews on the new units and start to recruit and train new staff to replace those that were coming to the ends of their careers. But instead of having all the crews and units available (subject to the dispute being resolved), TP are cutting back services and mothballing perfectly good trains. The DfT need to get their fingers out that's for sure, but they are far from alone in the blame.

Surely the problem was that practical training couldn’t take place as it required two people to be together in a confined space for a purpose that wasn’t immediately necessary.

 

[Blindtraveler]

And I suspect sadly in real terms that's the answer for a lot of organizations and operations transport based or otherwise who are now struggling for trained staff where the training has to take place in a live face-to-face environment where practical coronavirus measures simply weren't possible

 

[Bantamzen]

A question in my mind: does the TPE December timetable utilise all of the 185 and 802 fleets (following withdrawal of the Mk5As)? Or are some units being held back for ECS driver route training diagrams (including the diversionary routes needed for TRU)?

If the latter, there might be scope for some timetable restoration in future years when the training backlog has been cleared.

By which time some people will have given up on the route for good. Not exactly good for business saying "normal service may, or may not be restored sometime in the future".

Surely the problem was that practical training couldn’t take place as it required two people to be together in a confined space for a purpose that wasn’t immediately necessary.

Training people to do their jobs isn't necessary? Hmmm....

However I do suspect covid still had a role to play. If the rail unions are anything like my own, then covid was the worst thing ever in the entire history of mankind and they fought tooth and nail to stop people coming within a hundred miles of each other, even though this was just not practical. Yet in factories, shops, hospitals it was perfectly fine for large numbers of people to work together.

 

[3RDGEN]

A question in my mind: does the TPE December timetable utilise all of the 185 and 802 fleets (following withdrawal of the Mk5As)? Or are some units being held back for ECS driver route training diagrams (including the diversionary routes needed for TRU)?

If the latter, there might be scope for some timetable restoration in future years when the training backlog has been cleared.

The 185's will be getting run into the ground, as they are now, 802's probably 10 or 11 diagrams from 19 units as it's unclear how many will run to Scarborough. So going forward there would be fleet capacity for reinstating the Newcastle/York - Manc Pic service that on paper provides the fourth train per hour now.

If the proposed service runs as advertised and they provide six car 185's then fine, get the training backlog sorted and new starters trained up then look at reintroducing the fourth service per hour next winter. The May 22 and Dec 22 timetables haven't worked so at least TPE are now been honest and publishing a timetable they should be able to operate, time will tell.

 

[317 forever]

Which rumour has it, as far as the North Route is concerned, is:

1tph Saltburn to Manchester Airport
1tph Newcastle to Liverpool
1tph Hull to Manchester Piccadilly

Supplemented by:

1 stopping service ph Huddersfield to Manchester (with 2 am journeys and 2 pm journeys extended to and from Wakefield / Castleford)
1 shuttle ph Scarborough to York

The Leeds - Huddersfield stopping service is withdrawn and stops added on to the Hull to Manchester service instead.
The hourly Manchester Piccadilly to Newcastle or Scarbrough service is withdrawn.

The end result is basically 2 x express trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester instead of the 4tph now. The Hull cannot be counted as an express as it has turned in to a stopping train. Liverpool drops to 1 tph. Newcastle drops to 1 tph. Scarborough is just a shuttle to York. Intermediate stations between Huddersfield and Stalybridge drop to 1 tph all day, as opposed to 2tph at certain times now.

There are rumours of "peak time extras" but I can bet that these will be at the old pre-covid peak time and not the new peak time (i.e. all day Fridays, Saturdays and Sundays) so won't actually be of much use.

If the above is true then it is a recipe for chaos and disaster as there will be chronic and severe overcrowding at the busy times - and that's even assuming they are all worked as 5 car 802s or 6 car 185s - which of course they won't, 3 car 185s will pop up all over the place.

The cynic in me thinks we will never see any service uplift for years afterwards and the reduction in service will be used as an excuse to have long term reductions.

I am hoping when it appears that it won't be as bad as it looks - but I fear it will. It will also prove mind numbingly boring and depressing for staff too - there will be far too many people with nothing to do just sitting around at many depots.

I now find it second nature to use coaches to Leeds from Manchester. They are just as quick - at least the ones not diverted via Bradford - and fairly frequent too.

Why can Hull not? Presumably 802s will be used on as much as possible?

That said, infrastructure is for life not just for Christmas, and if this enables reliable operations it is absolutely the right thing to do.

It's not often for Christmas either, with the railway shut on Christmas Day and so much engineering work over Christmas too