December 2023 Timetable Change

[Solent&Wessex]

TPE now uploaded for December 2023.

A cursory glance at the much talked about North Route:

Monday to Friday "peak" capacity is maintained by a variety of weird extra trains, strange stopping patterns and extensions of stopping trains. Very different to now. Not sure how resilient it looks!

Sherburn in Elmet gains calls on the 4 per day each way which go via Wakefield and Castleford. Journey time Manchester to York only a few mins longer than the fast train via Leeds.

Off Peak is poor.

Saturdays looks a recipe for disaster overcrowding wise with a most basic 30 minute / 2 fast trains per hour frequency all day with no extras at any time. As 4 tph plus stoppers is normally all full and standing on a Saturday now, even when they are all running as normal, I dread to think what will happen in December when that drops to 2 tph plus stoppers. As others have said above, the risk of people not being able to board trains at Leeds or Manchester is extremely high. Saturdays is by the busiest day of the week on the Leeds Huddersfield stoppers too, which midweek outside of travelling to work or college times are in fairness relatively quiet. Saturdays they can also be full and standing for most of the day, so how they will squeeze on to a no doubt already full train when it starts I don't know.


I note there are still some 185 workings to and from Victoria to Liverpool via Newton le Willows in the morning and evening. They seem to form extras outside of the normal hourly 802 Newcastle services.

 

[dknayrbdu8997]

TPE now uploaded for December 2023.

It appears they've added the Manchester to Newcastle and the Liverpool to Newcastle stops together into the new Liverpool to Newcastle. Extending journey times by about 20-25 minutes.

 

[43074]

Monday to Friday "peak" capacity is maintained by a variety of weird extra trains, strange stopping patterns and extensions of stopping trains. Very different to now. Not sure how resilient it looks!

Yes it looks fairly obvious TPE have pretty poor corporate memory given how badly it went last time they had stopping trains running throughout between Leeds and Manchester in May 18.

Hull to Manchester journey times eastbound are poor in particular, 2 hours 10 and not even particularly quick between Leeds and Hull where the bulk of the demand is on that route.

Meanwhile the spread of services from Huddersfield to either Leeds or Manchester is poor because of the way the stoppers and fasts have to fit together.

As expected 16 minute dwells return at Manchester Victoria in the Newcastle trains. Only 2 x fast trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester, basically what was provided in 1988.

 

[dk1]

I would imagine with the TRU ongoing along with the traincrew issues, an inferior service across this route has to be expected for the next few years.

 

[td97]

Journey time Manchester to York only a few mins longer than the fast train via Leeds.

From Piccadilly, the 1458 via Wakefield is 1 minute faster than the 1458 via Leeds!

It appears they've added the Manchester to Newcastle and the Liverpool to Newcastle stops together into the new Liverpool to Newcastle. Extending journey times by about 20-25 minutes.

Chester le Street seems to be a big winner, with most Newcastle to Liverpool services calling.

 

[Trainguy34]

From Piccadilly, the 1458 via Wakefield is 1 minute faster than the 1458 via Leeds!

I suppose thats good as it means that the presumably busier train (Leeds) isn't advertised as being faster on the boards. Would be better if they were spaced out a bit more though.

 

[Andyh82]

I’m hoping this reduction on TPE gets major press coverage and gets in the radar of the mayors, as they can’t get away with this timetable becoming permanent, especially the fiasco of a major cut in a Saturday just a few weeks before Christmas.

I get the feeling it’ll become the base frequency and in a few years they’ll announce with great fanfare an additional express train per hour meaning there are now ‘3 fast trains per hour’. If people haven’t been paying attention they’ll think it’s an improvement, and all the local papers who print anything will just publish it.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

I’m hoping this reduction on TPE gets major press coverage and gets in the radar of the mayors, as they can’t get away with this timetable becoming permanent, especially the fiasco of a major cut in a Saturday just a few weeks before Christmas.

But is this what everyone has been asking for on this board - an emergency timetable that can be delivered!? There’s been numerous posts saying there should be an emergency timetable.

 

[Andyh82]

But is this what everyone has been asking for on this board - an emergency timetable that can be delivered!? There’s been numerous posts saying there should be an emergency timetable.

Assuming it is fully advertised as an emergency timetable, with a publicly announced end date upfront before it starts

If the MD goes on Look North and says the full timetable will be reinstated December 2024 then that will be just about acceptable

 

[HamworthyGoods]

If the MD goes on Look North and says the full timetable will be reinstated December 2024 then that will be just about acceptable

That would be quite foolish as it’s plain to see TPE don’t have the crew resource to deliver that full timetable along with the TRU requirements.

TPE have already said they will increase the timetable when it is suitable to do so and the fleet they plan to retain will allow for that.

 

[Ze Random One]

Chester le Street seems to be a big winner, with most Newcastle to Liverpool services calling.

Unfortunately Durham appears to be a big loser though, in most hours services from Newcastle will leave at 29, 35, 40 and 43 minutes past each hour, meaning 45 minute gaps every hour (including the peaks). In the current timetable, the Liverpool leaves around 06 so there's never more than a 30 minute wait.

 

[hux385]

Will these changes to the TPE timetable also affect how/where crew changes occur en-route?

 

[Bald Rick]

and gets in the radar of the mayors,

The Mayors already know - as they are (effectively) part of the approval process for the timetable.

 

[3RDGEN]

Yes it looks fairly obvious TPE have pretty poor corporate memory given how badly it went last time they had stopping trains running throughout between Leeds and Manchester in May 18.

Hull to Manchester journey times eastbound are poor in particular, 2 hours 10 and not even particularly quick between Leeds and Hull where the bulk of the demand is on that route.

Meanwhile the spread of services from Huddersfield to either Leeds or Manchester is poor because of the way the stoppers and fasts have to fit together.

As expected 16 minute dwells return at Manchester Victoria in the Newcastle trains. Only 2 x fast trains per hour between Leeds and Manchester, basically what was provided in 1988.

The stoppers are not running through as per the 2018 fiasco timetable, they remain separate. Off peak the Leeds - Hudds stoppers are arriving at Leeds/Hudds with similar gaps to the following fast services as now but are no longer passed at Dewsbury / Heaton Lodge Junc so performance should be better if anything. They are also slightly quicker as a result.

Generally Hull - Leeds is the same as current xx:03 - xx:57, Leeds - Hull is also similar with a couple of minutes added on some services.

That would be quite foolish as it’s plain to see TPE don’t have the crew resource to deliver that full timetable along with the TRU requirements.

TPE have already said they will increase the timetable when it is suitable to do so and the fleet they plan to retain will allow for that.

Spot on, Summer 2022 timetable didn't work so some genius at First TPE decided to increase the service to 4tph in December 2022 and guess what it hasn't worked either.

They need to deliver this timetable, with six car 185's on the Saltburn and Hull routes, and then sort out the training backlog before rebuilding in 12-18 months time.

 

[nr758123]

TPE now uploaded for December 2023.

Are you able to provide a link to somewhere where it can be seen in something like a traditional timetable format?

 

[dknayrbdu8997]

There appears to be a Class 185 working from Manchester Airport to Darlington once a day. I'm not sure if the 185s have been to Darlington in a while. Also the return of the early morning Liverpool to Scarborough and it's an 802.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Are you able to provide a link to somewhere where it can be seen in something like a traditional timetable format?

Timetables have not been produced yet, the data has simply been uploaded to downstream systems. You can however use these to create your own timetable.

 

[nr758123]

Timetables have not been produced yet, the data has simply been uploaded to downstream systems. You can however use these to create your own timetable.

there was I, hoping someone would have done that work for me..............

 

[Dan G]

Here's why the TPE changes are what they are

‘Fully staffed’ TransPennine Express ‘needs to become simpler’

Recently appointed interim Managing Director of state-owned TransPennine Express, Chris Jackson tells Rail Business UK about his plans to revive the fortunes of the struggling operator.

www.railwaygazette.com

‘We need to simplify our operations, TPE is far too complicated for the size of operation it is’, explains Chris Jackson, interim Managing Director of TransPennine Express. Reflecting on his first few weeks in the role since TPE was transferred to DOHL — the government’s operator of last resort — on May 28, Jackson believes a multi-stage process of business simplification is required.

TPE currently has ‘four different types of traction, lots of diversionary routes, a significant number of outstanding training days and only 50% of the drivers signing all of the routes and the traction in their link’. This has been a significant factor in the poor reliability of the operator’s services since as long ago as 2016, Jackson believes.

One major step towards restoring a viable service across TPE’s extensive geography is the conclusion in early July of a Rest Day Working agreement with the principal rail unions. Rail Business UK understands that in monetary terms, the deal closely matches one previously proposed by TPE’s former owner FirstGroup and rejected by the Department for Transport on cost grounds. However, the latest agreement between DOHL and TPE is understood to be slightly broader in scope, addressing other topics related to specific areas of dispute within TPE. The deal runs until the end of March 2024.

During that period, Jackson intends to undertake a full review of TPE operations ahead of presenting a number of proposals for the December 2023 timetable change.

Looking to the medium term, Jackson says that TPE’s plan for the December 2023 timetable recast is now in development, in partnership with Transport for the North.

‘We still have to make some bold decisions on the timetable and the fleet. We need to develop a timetable for December that is resilient, that delivers for our customers and allows us to do the training that we need but is also sympathetic to some of the challenges the business is facing’, he says.

 

[Geeves]

Two trains that run reliably every hour is much better than no trains at all for 3 to 4 hours. On Saturday the final train to Leeds (from Victoria) has been as early as 1815. Simplicity is a good thing for sure.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

there was I, hoping someone would have done that work for me..............

Afraid you’ll need to wait until a bit closer to the start date for that, these initial uploads can very much be subject to change.

 

[Peter0124]

The TPE timetable for Glasgow still looks poor especially in the evenings.

 

[Anvil1984]

There appears to be a Class 185 working from Manchester Airport to Darlington once a day. I'm not sure if the 185s have been to Darlington in a while. Also the return of the early morning Liverpool to Scarborough and it's an 802.

185s make almost daily trips to Darlington on an early morning trip from York to Saltburn and returning on a night empty from Saltburn back to York for route retention purposes

EDIT. It seems unless I’m mistaken this is being changed in December and they’ll run via Yarm the usual route instead

 

[507020]

Are you able to provide a link to somewhere where it can be seen in something like a traditional timetable format?

I have just made this, if you can call it something like a traditional timetable format, but only for the eastbound direction at present. 5 through stoppers Piccadilly - Leeds in the evening and 2 instances of overtaking at Dewsbury. Through services to Scarborough are faster and 2 services don’t call at Lea Green. Let me know if it’s satisfactory.

Will these changes to the TPE timetable also affect how/where crew changes occur en-route?

Part of the reason that the reductions are so drastic is that there aren’t meant to be any crew changes en-route at all from December, but fitting in with current (deficient) route and traction knowledge pending full training.

185s make almost daily trips to Darlington on an early morning trip from York to Saltburn and returning on a night empty from Saltburn back to York for route retention purposes

EDIT. It seems unless I’m mistaken this is being changed in December and they’ll run via Yarm the usual route instead

Interim Managing Director Chris Jackson has stated that all train crew will eventually sign all diversions for all the routes they sign, however they were unable to secure sufficient work to ensure this for Darlington - Eaglescliffe, so this route will be lost, replaced by this Darlington terminator.

There is currently an early morning York - Saltburn service which reverses at Darlington for route retention purposes, but this will soon cease.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

The TPE timetable for Glasgow still looks poor especially in the evenings.

Presumably there are available connections into Avanti services at Carlisle? Perfectly adequate. We need to get away from this obsession with direct services for every conceivable route.

 

[JonathanH]

Presumably there are available connections into Avanti services at Carlisle?

Plenty of connections between Manchester and Glasgow possible at Preston as well.

We need to get away from this obsession with direct services for every conceivable route.

Forum wisdom generally considers that the general public aren't prepared to change trains.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Plenty of connections between Manchester and Glasgow possible at Preston as well.

Forum wisdom generally considers that the general public aren't prepared to change trains.

Not to doubt forum wisdom, but generally railways work on the basis of connections for longer journeys. I do agree that it will impact some people though.

 

[HarryF]

I think the issue of connections is that the railway provides connection times that are fine if things are running on time, but instantly go out the window when trains start to pick up a couple of minutes delay.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the issue of connections is that the railway provides connection times that are fine if things are running on time, but instantly go out the window when trains start to pick up a couple of minutes delay.

There are obvious gaps in the timetable - as conceived it would be hourly to Scotland with half going to each major city, but there's no 1121, 1521 or 1921 to Glasgow, and the 1721 terminates at Carlisle. The 1921 is in as a Q (runs as required) path so I wonder if it might be reinstated mid-timetable if TPE come onto better times.

 

[Watershed]

Presumably there are available connections into Avanti services at Carlisle? Perfectly adequate.

Hardly adequate when you the run the risk of missed connections and Advance tickets become much more expensive as a result of mixing operators. Only from the narrow, operationally-focused viewpoint of the railway would abandoning important direct links such as this be considered remotely acceptable.

It's an utter failure of a timetable, that has arisen as a result of the DfT's incompetent micro-management of, and lack of strategic direction and funding for, the TPE franchise.

We need to get away from this obsession with direct services for every conceivable route.

Not for every conceivable route, but this is one that is very popular for end-to-end passengers and which has long existed. We're not talking about Manchester Airport to Saltburn services here!