Declining quality of 'Inter City' standard class passenger accommodation

[Tetchytyke]

I was shot down on here years ago for predicting that the IET would be badly-built plastic junk. It shouldn't have come as a massive surprise- the Javelins are exactly the same once you get off HS1- yet it still has come as a massive surprise.

The Mk3s were lovely if you were in the middle of the carriage but if you were towards the ends- especially if you were over the bogies- they bounced and hunted around like nobody's business. Drinking a cup of coffee was always a game of Russian roulette, thankfully I travelled a lot at that time and knew the places (e.g. Doncaster, Newark flat crossing) to avoid even trying.

The same applies to the CAF stock, to be honest, sit at the end of the coach and the hunting is awful but in the middle you don't notice it. I don't mind the Northern 197s and 331s but I know I'm in a minority; they hunt a bit but they're not class 142s.

 

[RJ]

Not everyone is bothered about a window seat. Travelling long distance frequently, I don’t mind a limited view. Actually, sometimes I beeline for the full on pillar seats at the coach ends in the IETs if I want to have a rest or don’t want the sun in my face if working on the laptop.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was shot down on here years ago for predicting that the IET would be badly-built plastic junk. It shouldn't have come as a massive surprise- the Javelins are exactly the same once you get off HS1- yet it still has come as a massive surprise.

You reckon? I think the Javelins are everything the 80x should have been - kind of like a posh high speed 350/1.

The same applies to the CAF stock, to be honest, sit at the end of the coach and the hunting is awful but in the middle you don't notice it. I don't mind the Northern 197s and 331s but I know I'm in a minority; they hunt a bit but they're not class 142s.

I think if you see the 195 as a Pacer replacement, which it basically is, it isn't bad at all.

The ride being better between the bogies is common to be honest. 350s are quite juddery and hunty at the ends but smooth in the middle. Only place they ride perfectly is the only place we have German-standard track - the south WCML fasts - on which they ride so smoothly you can barely sense any movement at all, at 110 it's like the window view is a television set with the unit stationary, just like you get in much of Germany.

 

[Tetchytyke]

You reckon? I think the Javelins are everything the 80x should have been - kind of like a posh high speed 350/1.

I think they're appalling once you get off HS1, bouncing all over the shop on, say, the run from Ashford to Folkestone. Noticeably worse than my ride on the 377 in the other direction.

My experience is very limited on them outside of HS1 though, only a couple of trips to Dover, so it may be that I was unlucky.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The IET seating is fine in theory. I actually prefer it to what is fitted to the Avanti 805s due to the horrible "wings" fitted to that fleet. It is the seat base and complete loss of padding on the GWR and LNER sets meaning you sit directly on the metal bar that is the issue. Is it possible to replace just the base and not the whole seat I wonder?

I really value the wings, as I find it impossible to try and rest on a train without something to rest the head on.

I think if you see the 195 as a Pacer replacement, which it basically is, it isn't bad at all.

The ride being better between the bogies is common to be honest. 350s are quite juddery and hunty at the ends but smooth in the middle. Only place they ride perfectly is the only place we have German-standard track - the south WCML fasts - on which they ride so smoothly you can barely sense any movement at all, at 110 it's like the window view is a television set with the unit stationary, just like you get in much of Germany.

A Pacer and a 195 is absolutely chalk and cheese, as they call it. Anyone who doesn't see a 195 as an extreme upgrade from a Pacer, particularly a former Merseyrail one, I'm concerned for, frankly.

 

[43096]

If a mk3 is busy I hate to think what you'd call an IET.
I would never call the ride of a mk3 busy, always found them very good and have ridden on many over many years.

Exactly. The word I would use to describe the BT10 would be “serene” - it takes a lot for it to lose its smoothness. It is astonishing and embarrassing that a bogie designed 50+ years ago remains the zenith of ride comfort.

 

[Mikey C]

The pre-refurb ones were miles ahead, comfy soft seats. The new ones (same as on 374) are meh, but the ride quality is extremely good. It's more sofa-like than seat like

But then the Eurostar stock operates on the super smooth HS1, so not really a direct comparison with the rest of the UK stock on the legacy network.

How was the 373 ride quality when they were operated out of Kings Cross by GNER?

 

[jfollows]

How was the 373 ride quality when they were operated out of Kings Cross by GNER?

I don’t remember it being bad, but I seem to have a higher tolerance than some here for this sort of thing - the only time I remember poor ride was in a Mark 1 brake van directly behind a class 86 at 100mph.

 

[greyman42]

Mk3s started the rot of misalignment, the IC70 seat was dire (particularly the fixed armrests),

I thought the IC70 were excellent seats, and i actually liked the armrests which were padded.tomerge]1731001999[/automerge]

How was the 373 ride quality when they were operated out of Kings Cross by GNER?

Very good in my opinion.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought the IC70 were excellent seats

Guess you're neither tall nor, er, well built?

 

[greyman42]

Guess you're neither tall nor, er, well built?

No, the same as a lot of people.

 

[physics34]

I thought the IC70 were excellent seats, and i actually liked the armrests which were padded.tomerge]1731001999[/automerge]

Very good in my opinion.

Fixed armrests the problem for me

 

[greyman42]

Fixed armrests the problem for me

In what way?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

In what way?

Well they sort of trap you in, don’t they. It’s difficult to get in and out of the seats with them down - let’s bear in mind they’re not thin ones either, they’re abominably chunky.

For the record, I am average height and very slim, and I add that they felt like silly toy seats whenever I used them.

 

[greyman42]

Well they sort of trap you in, don’t they. It’s difficult to get in and out of the seats with them down - let’s bear in mind they’re not thin ones either, they’re abominably chunky.

For the record, I am average height and very slim, and I add that they felt like silly toy seats whenever I used them.

I never had any bother with them but i appreciate it is subjective.

 

[Richard Scott]

The pre-refurb ones were miles ahead, comfy soft seats. The new ones (same as on 374) are meh, but the ride quality is extremely good. It's more sofa-like than seat like

They were the same seats as used on the TGVs of the time, they are still in the older TGV Duplex gens, Ouigo Spain, and amusingly on the Enterprise DD sets.

I must admit I find 374s don't ride well at all. Considering they're a Siemens product they are not in same league as an ICE train in any way, shape or form. They're extremely disappointing and would rather have a 373 any time.

 

[signed]

But then the Eurostar stock operates on the super smooth HS1

The 374s don't have good ride quality, even on LGVs and HS1. The German equivalent Velaro D does ride good though I despise the seats.

373s followed the age old TGV moto of extremely smooth riding even on classic lines with great seating. Let's just hope the TGV M doesn't end that streak.

 

[43096]

I never had any bother with them but i appreciate it is subjective.

They have the advantage of helping prevent someone sat next to you who is "out of gauge" from encroaching on your personal space.

 

[physics34]

In what way?

The are bulky and don't move. Hard to get out of if you are on the chubby side

 

[Mikey C]

Well they sort of trap you in, don’t they. It’s difficult to get in and out of the seats with them down - let’s bear in mind they’re not thin ones either, they’re abominably chunky.

For the record, I am average height and very slim, and I add that they felt like silly toy seats whenever I used them.

I always hated those armrests as well. I'm not fat, but I'm 6'2 so they felt intrusive

 

[greyman42]

I always hated those armrests as well. I'm not fat, but I'm 6'2 so they felt intrusive

I don't see what difference height makes.

Hard to get out of if you are on the chubby side

One of the advantages of them was to stop "chubby" people spilling over into the adjacent seat.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see what difference height makes.

Legroom as they force your knees directly forwards. They are also very thick backed.

 

[greyman42]

Legroom as they force your knees directly forwards.

What has the arm rest got to do with that, where else can your knees go?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What has the arm rest got to do with that, where else can your knees go?

If you lift the aisle side one, into the aisle.

 

[greyman42]

If you lift the aisle side one, into the aisle.

Or into the space of the person who is sitting beside you as in "mansplaying".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or into the space of the person who is sitting beside you as in "mansplaying"

Which isn't a problem if nobody is sitting there.

 

[Bevan Price]

As I have posted before, for UK standard Class seat comfort, nothing can beat the Bulleid SR Open Seconds. Deep plush, comfortable upholstery, and wide enough for the average passenger. Some, but not all GWR coaches were also pretty comortable. LMSR & LNER seats mostly had harder seats, with horse hairs liable to poke into your legs and b*m.

As the average size of people has slowly increased, seat widths and typical legroom have slowly decreased and if sat in one of a pair of seats, you often find your shoulders jammed against the neighbouring passenger - that was far less common with older coaches.

However, amongst the worst I have encountered (in addition to Pacers) were the Gresley Quad-Artic suburban sets; 6 a side seating and legroom suitable only for midgets.

 

[Fundee on Tay]

In my experience the worst ride quality is the Mark 5As on Caledonian Sleeper (in the seated coach). Never managed to get an ounce of sleep. The TPE Mark 5s were alright though.

As for LNERs 800/801s I find the seats bearable even for a 5 hour journey, but you have to kind of work out how to sit in the seats.

 

[westy331]

The 374s don't have good ride quality, even on LGVs and HS1. The German equivalent Velaro D does ride good though I despise the seats.

373s followed the age old TGV moto of extremely smooth riding even on classic lines with great seating. Let's just hope the TGV M doesn't end that streak.

Siemens high-speed trains, except their newer offering (which has various adjustments) have been designed to run on slab track, hence their better ride quality in say China or Germany, than on the LGV network or on HS1

 

[Mogz]

If by “Intercity” stock we include long-distance third-rail, then I would propose the (now 20 year old) Siemens Class 444 as the overall epitome of passenger comfort.

They are spacious, the seats are comfortable and have adequate leg room, the windows are large and provide for a great view, and the ride quality is very smooth.

I’ve often thought that they would make an excellent basis for a new generation of hauled coach or long distance DEMU.