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Declining quality of 'Inter City' standard class passenger accommodation

Tetchytyke

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That is a subjective view, even if you are travelling as a group of six or eight people. A visit to a preserved railway is enough to show that people are put off entering an already occupied compartment depending on who is already in there, and that the view out can be terrible from the corridor seats.
A compartment to yourself is absolute bliss. But then the group of annoying boors arrive and you're trapped in a small room with people you'd like to strangle.

So generally no, I wouldn't want to see compartments on modern trains. They'd be a recipe for anti-social behaviour as much as anything else.
 
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JonathanH

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They'd be a recipe for anti-social behaviour as much as anything else.
Yes, I remember a journey on a South Eastern unit in the last days of slam door trains when some passengers removed all the light bulbs from an adjacent first class compartment.

Clearly loose fittings are more unlikely now but that doesn't change the chance of anti social behaviour.
 

Mogz

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20 May 2019
Messages
551
They are increasingly disappearing on the mainland, too.

You can see why: a compartment in second class is typically a 6-seater, so a 10-compartment vehicle holds 60. In contrast an open saloon will hold 80. So in a train with 6 second class vehicles that’s 120 fewer seats. Or to put it another way you need 8 second class compartment vehicles to give the capacity of 6 opens.
True, but there needn’t be a huge amount of provision.

If introduced in the UK I would propose the following:

- No more than one compartment coach per 9-11 car set.

- Compartments only available as “only whole compartment reservable” which would mean that families, groups and business meetings would have the benefit.

Travelling as a family with an autistic child, a compartment would be a Godsend on Crosscountry journeys.
 

3RDGEN

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Hull
For compartments I assume you would need to have separate information screens and CCTV systems in each one so it is not going to happen purely on the costs of duplication let alone the safety risks in today's society.
 

signed

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Paris, France
- Compartments only available as “only whole compartment reservable” which would mean that families, groups and business meetings would have the benefit.
There is already such a thing with the Sala Meeting for the Frecciarossa running in France only. The fact that it's restricted to France is probably indicative that it's not that popular (I have no idea how popular it is)

300x259--TRT-Franc-SalaMeeeting.jpg

Image shows the meeting room in Frecciarossa
Source : https://www.trenitalia.com/trenitalia-france/les-trains-frecciarossa-/les-classes-de-confort-.html


The Swiss loco-hauled stock has compartments as well, but it's the open-kind
 

mike57

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You can see why: a compartment in second class is typically a 6-seater, so a 10-compartment vehicle holds 60. In contrast an open saloon will hold 80. So in a train with 6 second class vehicles that’s 120 fewer seats. Or to put it another way you need 8 second class compartment vehicles to give the capacity of 6 opens.
This the problem however, the strive to increase capacity by cramming people in rather than by ordering more carriages is affecting comfort, even if you dont go to compartments the current dire state of new Inter City standard class accomodation is testament to this.

A lot of other rail systems have realised that by spending a bit more up front you can make rail travel far more attractive. In this country the bean counters get hold of it and its reduced to a barely (or less than) adequate minimum. Given that rolling stock can have a 40 year life it means that the current penny pinching is going to be felt for years to come.

I personally I like compartments, noise levels are reduced, and going back in the day when there were compartment carriages on main line services if you didn't want to interact with your fellow passenger you have the option of read a book, or in modern day terms watching something on your phone.

I somehow doubt that compartments will ever make a return in the UK however.
 

Mikey C

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11 Feb 2013
Messages
7,510
This the problem however, the strive to increase capacity by cramming people in rather than by ordering more carriages is affecting comfort, even if you dont go to compartments the current dire state of new Inter City standard class accomodation is testament to this.

A lot of other rail systems have realised that by spending a bit more up front you can make rail travel far more attractive. In this country the bean counters get hold of it and its reduced to a barely (or less than) adequate minimum. Given that rolling stock can have a 40 year life it means that the current penny pinching is going to be felt for years to come.

I personally I like compartments, noise levels are reduced, and going back in the day when there were compartment carriages on main line services if you didn't want to interact with your fellow passenger you have the option of read a book, or in modern day terms watching something on your phone.

I somehow doubt that compartments will ever make a return in the UK however.
IET seating may be rubbish, but it isn't crammed in. Legroom is very generous.
 

bramling

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Hertfordshire / Teesdale
This the problem however, the strive to increase capacity by cramming people in rather than by ordering more carriages is affecting comfort, even if you dont go to compartments the current dire state of new Inter City standard class accomodation is testament to this.

A lot of other rail systems have realised that by spending a bit more up front you can make rail travel far more attractive. In this country the bean counters get hold of it and its reduced to a barely (or less than) adequate minimum. Given that rolling stock can have a 40 year life it means that the current penny pinching is going to be felt for years to come.

I personally I like compartments, noise levels are reduced, and going back in the day when there were compartment carriages on main line services if you didn't want to interact with your fellow passenger you have the option of read a book, or in modern day terms watching something on your phone.

I somehow doubt that compartments will ever make a return in the UK however.

A lot of these benefits could be achieved if quiet carriages could be made to work properly. We never seem to have quite achieved that, for whatever reason.

*If* we could find a way of solving that problem, there wouldn’t really be much need for compartments.
 

sh24

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London
No one's really mentioned lighting quality, which is really awful on many newer trains. When done well it's a significant contributor to "intercity ambience".

This is my biggest frustration with the IET fleets. The lighting temperature is far too white, doesn't adjust to the time of day and there is no localised lighting. Electrostars in Standard have reading lights, why can't I have them in First?
 

AM9

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St Albans
This the problem however, the strive to increase capacity by cramming people in rather than by ordering more carriages is affecting comfort, even if you dont go to compartments the current dire state of new Inter City standard class accomodation is testament to this.

A lot of other rail systems have realised that by spending a bit more up front you can make rail travel far more attractive. In this country the bean counters get hold of it and its reduced to a barely (or less than) adequate minimum. Given that rolling stock can have a 40 year life it means that the current penny pinching is going to be felt for years to come.
I would agree that the absolute quality of seating is sometimes lower than some expect to find but as you say, the railway is striving to provide more capacity.
Away from the south-east, it seems that actual train capacity is self limited by the reluctance to extend trains. Given moderate amounts of investment, limitations on routes such as platform lengths and signalling can be improved generally within the boundaries of the railway estate.
Around London that isn't a viable option, both the main and secondary routes have had their valuable land assets sold off during the lean years leaving two or four track lines hemmed in by new housing and other developments such that expanding the route capacity means additional tracks which requires massive acquisition of prime land 'strips'. The option of platform extension is also unusable with the busiest routes already having 200-250m trains as standard. The only option then is to pack as many passengers in as can be safely managed, resulting in the designs of rolling stock that we see today.
So IMO, the only option to get what some here think should be a default on IC stock is to manage demand dowm to a less efficient use of space. Given the passenger noise generated by LNER's attempt to manage demand on the ECML, I doubt that anything like that will happen across the network.
 

Bletchleyite

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This is my biggest frustration with the IET fleets. The lighting temperature is far too white, doesn't adjust to the time of day and there is no localised lighting. Electrostars in Standard have reading lights, why can't I have them in First?

Not all of them, though - FirstGroup specified a warmer colour of lighting for both Avanti and Lumo - it's subtle but noticeable. Lumo goes further by tinting the luggage rack glass purple which gives the effect of the purple lights on Voyagers (maybe not to everyone's taste!)
 

BRX

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4,028
This is my biggest frustration with the IET fleets. The lighting temperature is far too white, doesn't adjust to the time of day and there is no localised lighting. Electrostars in Standard have reading lights, why can't I have them in First?
The IETs aren't even the worst.

Whole thread here.

 

En

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Messages
178
tbh what really makes a difference to me (and it's a change I didn't experience in my lifetime as it happened before - in the UK anyway - on intercity services but ironically not e.g. on slam door stock which I still got to experience as a kid) is compartment to open coaches. While I understand the logistical reasons why everything in the UK is now an open coach, compartment ones are just so much better. For comfort but also to get you having a nice chat with your fellow passengers (as still happens outside of the UK at least when the foreign types have had the courtesy to learn English) or if things are less busy having a private space with your family/friends.

I don't see how this can change back any time soon but I lament its loss.
there is of course the issue with compartment stock of the ease of criminality they engender
 

185143

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4,841
On preserved lines the corridor ‘view’ is usually the rear of sagging XXL Tesco jeans being forced south by two waxing moons.

On quieter days though, a compo and a cuppa is bliss.
I had a lovely journey in one from Hamburg to Kolding (I think) in Denmark back in April. Around 3 hours IIRC and had the compartment to myself the whole way.

I'd say the booze I had across the table probably discouraged people, but given my limited experience of Germany and drinking... nope!

It was a lovely trip, until the AC gave up about half an hour before bailing out.
 

Pigeon

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949
The trouble with compartments is that they provide a considerably lower average "seat quality index", if I may so term it, per group of seats than opens do.

Consider a second-class compartment vs. a corresponding group of seats in an open - both of which provide 8 seats per window's length of the carriage (since when compartments were common they hadn't yet forgotten how to align seats with windows in opens; and assuming the armrests are up in the compartment).

With the compartment, you get only one decent seat out of 8 - ie. next to the window, facing forwards (or backwards, come to that, if that's your preference); one not-so-decent seat (next to the window but facing the other way); one tolerable seat (next to the corridor facing the right way; not a great view but at least it's something); one annoying last-choice seat (next to the corridor but facing the wrong way); and four rotten seats which are barely any better than sitting on your suitcase in the vestibule (strangers sat on both sides of you and nothing to look at except the wall around the head of the person sitting opposite; these seats suck).

With the open, you get two decent seats by the same standard as the above, two similarly not-so-decent seats, and four seats which are a bit crap but still significantly better than the four rotten seats in a compartment, as you at least have the aisle space on one side of you instead of people on both sides, and a much wider choice of places to point your eyes at.

I had some most enjoyably cosy trips fugging up in a Mk1 compartment on a nearly empty train, but for a train that was even merely lightly loaded as opposed to nearly empty, a rake of opens gave a much better chance of getting a good seat.

Compartments are not precluded by the deplorable desire to cram as many people in as possible, since (as described) both compartments and opens give you the same capacity of 8 seats per window's length - the difference in that respect is only in whether the passage for people to move up and down the train is in the middle or at the side. (I am assuming that "Inter-City standard" precludes consideration of 2+3 open seating.) But they do feel a lot more crammed-in on an equally busy service because of the four seats which are thoroughly rotten rather than just not very good.

The rot with cramming people in began with the introduction of HSTs in place of rakes of conventional hauled stock that were several carriages longer; this contributed to HSTs being the trains to avoid on a route served by both HSTs and conventional stock by reason of always being significantly more crowded. It became a real problem a few years later, when skinflinting on the orders for new DMUs led to two-car and even single-car units replacing not only the two-car DMUs common in some areas, but the three-car DMUs common in other areas and the rakes of 4 or 5 Mk1s that yet other areas liked to use in place of DMUs on some services - and most unfortunately they got away with it because there was not any massive surge of complaints from passengers about the missing carriages. That then set the mood for ignoring any such complaints that they did get, and we got to suffer from more egregious instances of the same trend such as cross-country services, already reduced in capacity with the change from conventional stock to HSTs, being thoroughly rogered by the replacement of HSTs with stunted Voyagers of half the length.

We now seem to have effectively become "locked-in" to the stunted formation anti-pattern mainly through multiple manifestations of obsessive adherence to the counterproductive principle that when people have adopted a silly habit of doing something in an awkward and obstructive manner that gives rise to multiple secondary difficulties in place of the former straightforward and functional practice that did not cause such difficulties, the awkward practice must now be regarded as absolutely set in stone as if it had been established forever, no matter how daft it is, how problematical its results, or how recent its introduction, and defended to the hilt with the fervour of a 17th-century evangelist, with any suggestion of not doing things like that and adopting alternative habits which don't tie everything else up in knots being regarded as heretically anathematical and deserving of burning at the stake. A particularly pernicious instance of this is that we have allowed our legal system to become crippled by the debilitating disease, apparently an infection of US origin, of assuming that if anyone undergoes any kind of misfortune then (a) it can't possibly be their own fault no matter how clearly it actually is, and (b) it is therefore a valid reason for screwing some free money out of whichever legally-defenceless poor sod can be lumbered with inappropriate blame for someone else's stupidity.

I used to travel regularly from Paddington to Worcester on services formed of about 12 carriages which once they got beyond Oxford would make several stops apparently in the middle of nowhere going by the view through the window; but on lowering the droplight and peering along the length of the train it could be seen that two or three carriages were in fact aligned with a tiny little station platform, with a considerable crowd of people streaming out of them. And this was never a problem. Nobody was ever such a complete and utter fool as to step out of one of the doors that was not aligned with the platform and fall into space, and if they had they would simply have been told to look where they're flipping well going in future - a lesson so basic that any animal understands its importance as soon as it is old enough to walk. Contrast that situation with the mess we are in now whereby someone equally dismissive of the fundamental requirements of existing as a creature capable of independent movement is able to abuse the legal system to screw a pile of undeserved money out of the railways for not physically restraining them from being a blithering idiot - and nobody seems interested in making the slightest effort to correct this ridiculous situation (maybe everyone's waiting on the day when they get to do it themselves...) The slavish acceptance of this specific state of an inherently mutable set of conditions as if it was as permanent and unchangeable as a law of physics resulted in the provision of capacity to those small but heavily-used stations being reduced from the former appropriately long formations to whatever stunted DMU would not be longer than the platforms, so for this entirely artificial reason the service was condemned to a lower standard of quality for far too many years until the pressure to improve it eventually outweighed the whining about how much it would cost to extend the platforms (albeit the figure was indeed ridiculous for comparably daft and not unrelated reasons).

Other inappropriately-maintained tenets in a different area include the notion that everything has to be a multiple unit with every vehicle powered, so every vehicle is a complex piece of machinery with a complete set of powertrain equipment that costs the complete amount to build and to maintain, instead of the majority of them being simple boxes on wheels needing nothing more complex than brakes, lights and heating, which makes longer trains disproportionately more expensive and fosters the "cram 'em in" attitude; also the notion that every vehicle has to be used as close to absolutely continuously, and crammed as full as possible, all the time as can possibly be managed, with the idea of having some of them spare for dealing with peaks of demand and covering for contingencies being regarded with screaming horror, so services at times of peak demand become sardine cans formed of the same few vehicles that can be filled with the lesser demand at other times (or alternatively in a few cases services at times of low demand get run with fully-peak-sized trains instead of leaving the surplus vehicles at the depot, never mind the extra maintenance and fuel costs, which is arguably even dafter but at least isn't detrimental to passenger comfort and crowding).

Then there is the closely-related practice of assuming that whatever precisely specific level of traffic happens to be what there is right now is the exact level that will always and only need to be handled now and forever after, which invariably ends up causing a disproportionate amount of trouble and expense some years in the future when the assumption is shown to be invalid; examples of difficulties thus engendered on the railway system as it is now are too numerous to mention, but the particular one which is relevant here - at least according to what I have made out from many comments on this forum - is that recent resignalling programmes have made the assumption that trains are never ever going to be any longer than the maximum length that happens to be the case at the moment, so any idea of introducing longer trains is clobbered before it can get started by the need to do the resignalling all over again. With that sort of short-sighted imposition to cope with it's difficult to see how not to have to resort to cramming 'em in.

The Midland had the right idea: OK, so our route to Scotland may not be as good as the alternatives, so we'll compensate by making our services the most comfortable and giving the pleasantest trip. If the desire to attract people to using trains instead of cars is to be taken at all seriously, it is of great importance to pay attention to making the trains comfortable. If you have a car it is almost always more convenient to drive all the way than to catch a train (taking cases like going to London as exceptional), as well as being considerably cheaper, so the train is facing a serious disadvantage from the start; on the other hand, few cars, no matter how comfortable they may be for short periods, remain comfortable throughout a long ("Inter-City") journey, whereas a well-designed train can remain comfortable for such journeys. So it is necessary to maximise this advantage, and not throw it away - in particular not to throw it away through following the "cram 'em in" ideology, which leads to particularly unpleasant journeys and makes your own car a much more attractive option.
 

Mogz

Member
Joined
20 May 2019
Messages
551
The trouble with compartments is that they provide a considerably lower average "seat quality index", if I may so term it, per group of seats than opens do.

Consider a second-class compartment vs. a corresponding group of seats in an open - both of which provide 8 seats per window's length of the carriage (since when compartments were common they hadn't yet forgotten how to align seats with windows in opens; and assuming the armrests are up in the compartment).

With the compartment, you get only one decent seat out of 8 - ie. next to the window, facing forwards (or backwards, come to that, if that's your preference); one not-so-decent seat (next to the window but facing the other way); one tolerable seat (next to the corridor facing the right way; not a great view but at least it's something); one annoying last-choice seat (next to the corridor but facing the wrong way); and four rotten seats which are barely any better than sitting on your suitcase in the vestibule (strangers sat on both sides of you and nothing to look at except the wall around the head of the person sitting opposite; these seats suck).

With the open, you get two decent seats by the same standard as the above, two similarly not-so-decent seats, and four seats which are a bit crap but still significantly better than the four rotten seats in a compartment, as you at least have the aisle space on one side of you instead of people on both sides, and a much wider choice of places to point your eyes at.

I had some most enjoyably cosy trips fugging up in a Mk1 compartment on a nearly empty train, but for a train that was even merely lightly loaded as opposed to nearly empty, a rake of opens gave a much better chance of getting a good seat.

Compartments are not precluded by the deplorable desire to cram as many people in as possible, since (as described) both compartments and opens give you the same capacity of 8 seats per window's length - the difference in that respect is only in whether the passage for people to move up and down the train is in the middle or at the side. (I am assuming that "Inter-City standard" precludes consideration of 2+3 open seating.) But they do feel a lot more crammed-in on an equally busy service because of the four seats which are thoroughly rotten rather than just not very good.

The rot with cramming people in began with the introduction of HSTs in place of rakes of conventional hauled stock that were several carriages longer; this contributed to HSTs being the trains to avoid on a route served by both HSTs and conventional stock by reason of always being significantly more crowded. It became a real problem a few years later, when skinflinting on the orders for new DMUs led to two-car and even single-car units replacing not only the two-car DMUs common in some areas, but the three-car DMUs common in other areas and the rakes of 4 or 5 Mk1s that yet other areas liked to use in place of DMUs on some services - and most unfortunately they got away with it because there was not any massive surge of complaints from passengers about the missing carriages. That then set the mood for ignoring any such complaints that they did get, and we got to suffer from more egregious instances of the same trend such as cross-country services, already reduced in capacity with the change from conventional stock to HSTs, being thoroughly rogered by the replacement of HSTs with stunted Voyagers of half the length.

We now seem to have effectively become "locked-in" to the stunted formation anti-pattern mainly through multiple manifestations of obsessive adherence to the counterproductive principle that when people have adopted a silly habit of doing something in an awkward and obstructive manner that gives rise to multiple secondary difficulties in place of the former straightforward and functional practice that did not cause such difficulties, the awkward practice must now be regarded as absolutely set in stone as if it had been established forever, no matter how daft it is, how problematical its results, or how recent its introduction, and defended to the hilt with the fervour of a 17th-century evangelist, with any suggestion of not doing things like that and adopting alternative habits which don't tie everything else up in knots being regarded as heretically anathematical and deserving of burning at the stake. A particularly pernicious instance of this is that we have allowed our legal system to become crippled by the debilitating disease, apparently an infection of US origin, of assuming that if anyone undergoes any kind of misfortune then (a) it can't possibly be their own fault no matter how clearly it actually is, and (b) it is therefore a valid reason for screwing some free money out of whichever legally-defenceless poor sod can be lumbered with inappropriate blame for someone else's stupidity.

I used to travel regularly from Paddington to Worcester on services formed of about 12 carriages which once they got beyond Oxford would make several stops apparently in the middle of nowhere going by the view through the window; but on lowering the droplight and peering along the length of the train it could be seen that two or three carriages were in fact aligned with a tiny little station platform, with a considerable crowd of people streaming out of them. And this was never a problem. Nobody was ever such a complete and utter fool as to step out of one of the doors that was not aligned with the platform and fall into space, and if they had they would simply have been told to look where they're flipping well going in future - a lesson so basic that any animal understands its importance as soon as it is old enough to walk. Contrast that situation with the mess we are in now whereby someone equally dismissive of the fundamental requirements of existing as a creature capable of independent movement is able to abuse the legal system to screw a pile of undeserved money out of the railways for not physically restraining them from being a blithering idiot - and nobody seems interested in making the slightest effort to correct this ridiculous situation (maybe everyone's waiting on the day when they get to do it themselves...) The slavish acceptance of this specific state of an inherently mutable set of conditions as if it was as permanent and unchangeable as a law of physics resulted in the provision of capacity to those small but heavily-used stations being reduced from the former appropriately long formations to whatever stunted DMU would not be longer than the platforms, so for this entirely artificial reason the service was condemned to a lower standard of quality for far too many years until the pressure to improve it eventually outweighed the whining about how much it would cost to extend the platforms (albeit the figure was indeed ridiculous for comparably daft and not unrelated reasons).

Other inappropriately-maintained tenets in a different area include the notion that everything has to be a multiple unit with every vehicle powered, so every vehicle is a complex piece of machinery with a complete set of powertrain equipment that costs the complete amount to build and to maintain, instead of the majority of them being simple boxes on wheels needing nothing more complex than brakes, lights and heating, which makes longer trains disproportionately more expensive and fosters the "cram 'em in" attitude; also the notion that every vehicle has to be used as close to absolutely continuously, and crammed as full as possible, all the time as can possibly be managed, with the idea of having some of them spare for dealing with peaks of demand and covering for contingencies being regarded with screaming horror, so services at times of peak demand become sardine cans formed of the same few vehicles that can be filled with the lesser demand at other times (or alternatively in a few cases services at times of low demand get run with fully-peak-sized trains instead of leaving the surplus vehicles at the depot, never mind the extra maintenance and fuel costs, which is arguably even dafter but at least isn't detrimental to passenger comfort and crowding).

Then there is the closely-related practice of assuming that whatever precisely specific level of traffic happens to be what there is right now is the exact level that will always and only need to be handled now and forever after, which invariably ends up causing a disproportionate amount of trouble and expense some years in the future when the assumption is shown to be invalid; examples of difficulties thus engendered on the railway system as it is now are too numerous to mention, but the particular one which is relevant here - at least according to what I have made out from many comments on this forum - is that recent resignalling programmes have made the assumption that trains are never ever going to be any longer than the maximum length that happens to be the case at the moment, so any idea of introducing longer trains is clobbered before it can get started by the need to do the resignalling all over again. With that sort of short-sighted imposition to cope with it's difficult to see how not to have to resort to cramming 'em in.

The Midland had the right idea: OK, so our route to Scotland may not be as good as the alternatives, so we'll compensate by making our services the most comfortable and giving the pleasantest trip. If the desire to attract people to using trains instead of cars is to be taken at all seriously, it is of great importance to pay attention to making the trains comfortable. If you have a car it is almost always more convenient to drive all the way than to catch a train (taking cases like going to London as exceptional), as well as being considerably cheaper, so the train is facing a serious disadvantage from the start; on the other hand, few cars, no matter how comfortable they may be for short periods, remain comfortable throughout a long ("Inter-City") journey, whereas a well-designed train can remain comfortable for such journeys. So it is necessary to maximise this advantage, and not throw it away - in particular not to throw it away through following the "cram 'em in" ideology, which leads to particularly unpleasant journeys and makes your own car a much more attractive option.
A lot of sense is spoken here!
 

BRX

Established Member
Joined
20 Oct 2008
Messages
4,028
If the desire to attract people to using trains instead of cars is to be taken at all seriously, it is of great importance to pay attention to making the trains comfortable. If you have a car it is almost always more convenient to drive all the way than to catch a train (taking cases like going to London as exceptional), as well as being considerably cheaper, so the train is facing a serious disadvantage from the start; on the other hand, few cars, no matter how comfortable they may be for short periods, remain comfortable throughout a long ("Inter-City") journey, whereas a well-designed train can remain comfortable for such journeys. So it is necessary to maximise this advantage, and not throw it away - in particular not to throw it away through following the "cram 'em in" ideology, which leads to particularly unpleasant journeys and makes your own car a much more attractive option.
Agree with this.

Can we add the complete failure of TOCs to dissuade noise pollution from a cacophony of phones etc playing audio out loud, which is now a really significant problem on many trains. Noise cancelling headphones have become part of my packing list for any long journey - it shouldn't have to be like this.
 

Harpo

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@Pigeon
The rot with cramming people in began with the introduction of HSTs in place of rakes of conventional hauled stock that were several carriages longer
Rigidly fixed, single-sized formations on IC routes certainly removed flexibility but original Mk3 comfort was good.

Anyone wanting to experience Mk3 highs and lows can try the excellent MK3s on Chiltern and compare them with the awful oppressive seat cram on GWR Castle class MK3s.
 
Last edited:

antharro

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Joined
20 Dec 2006
Messages
674
To be honest I thought the 444s were a step backwards compared to the 442s.

This. When they ran alongside each other, the 442 was (at least for me) the considerably more comfortable option. Comfier seats, lower temperature lighting (which made for a great environment at night), better ride quality. I never felt more tired getting off a 442 after a run down from London than I did when I got on. (At least not due to dealing with hard seats and harsh lighting!) There was something so nice about their environment. At the time I hear it said by many people that the standard class on the 442 was equivalent in comfort to the 444's first class (just without the ability to recline), and the 444's standard class was equivalent to the 450's first class.

Now, with the 442s long gone, the 444s have become the "least worst" option. And I'll admit, having spent significant time travelling on them, I'll agree with @physics34 in that the standard class seats just aren't up to 2 hour journeys. They are by no means as uncomfortable as any of the ironing board seats, and I'll take them over the crap seats in GWR's IEPS, but they're not long distance seats. The old first class seats were pretty decent, though a little more padding would have been nice. Now, with the refit, first class is a downgrade from standard, with the only benefit being the wireless charging built into the tables.

On the IEPs. I haven't been on Lumo or LNER's, but I did go out of my way to sample GWR's when they were introduced. I don't think I have ever been as disappointed in a train as I was after that journey. I habitually upgraded to first on the HSTs on the weekend, and did so on my first IEP journey. Wow. A massive disappointment. Awful seats, harsh white lighting, uncomfortable ride. I'd rather spend two hours on a Piccadilly line or Bakerloo line train. Or a Voyager, and that's saying something - I despise standard class in XC's Voyagers. (Tho I am partial to their pre-refurbished first class, the engine noise doesn't bother me at all).

More recently I took a journey on a 745. I was expecting the worst, having quite liked the 317s, but I was pleasantly surprised. Seating wasn't too terrible for the journey length and the ride quality was reasonable. But the lighting was just wrong. Probably fine for a short distance commuter service but not for long distance. So I suppose there's some good news in there.

The question I'd like answered definitively is who is specifying the interiors of these trains? The DfT have told me in correspondence that it's a matter for the TOCs. GWR wouldn't answer that question, just saying they were disappointed that I disliked their new trains. And this forum says it's the DfT. If it is indeed the DfT, why do they seem to be hiding their involvement and why do they not seem to take any responsibility for their specifications?
 

mike57

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13 Mar 2015
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East coast of Yorkshire
If it is indeed the DfT, why do they seem to be hiding their involvement and why do they not seem to take any responsibility for their specifications?
Because thats the game that the DfT and TOCs have been playing for years, with DfT penny pinching behind the scenes and then blaming it on TOCs. Thats one reason why the current system is broken, because no-one has ultimate responsibility. As far as I can see the DfT dont create a specificication, they just tighten the purse strings to the point where anything other than awful is not acheivable.
 

Babybirdrobin

Member
Joined
3 Mar 2022
Messages
190
Location
The Crouch Valley
To add my bit to this thread, I’d say that I have a sliding scale of comfort that goes from GWR IET at the bottom because I’m quite tall and the time I did standard with them it felt crampt and had bar syndrome, moving up to the ironing boards of the 700s and up slightly more to the ‘improved’ ironing boards of the electrostars* and the Aventra seats, with above that the ex EMT 158s, then up to 156s as I found them really comfortable when I was on the Scottish ones, the desiros come next in line being generally comfortable, with the Turbostars following (I like diesel engines + comfort), the we have the Mark 3s with Chiltern as I quite like them before we top of the list with First in the Mark 4s (new first)

Notable exclusions either because they’re not worthy of a major place or because I forgot:
390s - only had one journey on a refurbished one, I’d say on par with a 350 in comfort for me
Mark 5a’s - These varied over my journeys - over two journeys I had comfort and hunting so no overall opinion (that being on CS)
Mark 3 derived units - Very nice in my opinion (particularly the 320 fleet), forgot to put in

For tube stock it goes from worst to best Central, Picc, Sub-surface, Bakerloo for me as it’s just the ones I have extensive experience on

Honourable mention to the Turbostars and the mark 3 based units as they are very comfortable in my opinion, if unsuited to IC duties, dishonourable mention to the IETs of LNER as even first didn’t make me like those horrid seats when I went to Aberdeen from London, coming back I went from Glasgow to Leeds via Carlisle and got a 225 from there, so much better

That’s just my opinion anyway
 

Crithylum

Member
Joined
21 May 2024
Messages
136
Location
London Borough of Ealing
Did the following trip on Thursday:
Tube/EL to Paddington
Paddington to Newport(Wales) on an 802
Newport to Cardiff on a 166
Cardiff to Paddington on an 800
Back home on EL/tube

The 802 was a pleasant surprise. I was expecting an awful ironing board, but instead got something that I would describe as just about acceptable for a 1.5 hours journey. However, the armrest was far too low (and I am an average sized individual).

The 166, apart from the noise and diesel fumes, was by far the most comfortable of the trains taken.

Stepping on the 800, and the first impression was that the lighting was far too bright and harsh (this was the only journey at night). The seats were comparable (if not worse) to the S stock train I took afterwards in comfort. A class 345 was leaps and bounds better comfort wise. ~80% of seats suffered from metal bar syndrome, and the only ones which didn’t were rock hard. Every armrest required a different amount of force to lower (myself and my friend joked that these trains were so expensive because the DfT specified a different force for each armrest in the specification). I even thought that an armrest was broken because it went down so low (it wasn’t broken, the seats were that poorly designed). The one consolation prize was that the harsh lighting helped keep me awake, as I opted to stand all the way from Bristol Parkway to Paddington (the seats were that bad, and I tried over a dozen and they were all crap). The only upside it that unlike a 387, it doesn’t feel like a bomb went off every time it passed a train in the opposite direction, or pop your ears every time a tunnel was entered. Although the ride was poor, it was certainly better than a 387 or 700 at the same speed. Despite that, the overall experience was a complete joke of a product.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Dec 2016
Messages
11,494
Location
Salford Quays, Manchester
No one's really mentioned lighting quality, which is really awful on many newer trains. When done well it's a significant contributor to "intercity ambience".
One of the many key differences between a TPE Nova 1 (802) and a TPE Nova 2 (397). The 397s have much warmer, softer lighting. Like other Hitachi 80x, the 802s have the trademark dentist light brightness.

The 397s also have much bigger windows than the 802s, better PISs, a lot more fake wood and black panelling rather than dull white or beige, and what I consider to be much more luxurious First Class seating. While the CAF ride isn't phenomenal and they still have the Sophia's with the nightmarish metal bar, I find the 397 to have a hugely nicer interior than the TPE 802, and the rare occasion I end up on the latter on a Manchester Scotland service I'm never too thrilled about it.
 

sh24

Member
Joined
28 Sep 2023
Messages
582
Location
London
100% agree. The colour temperature of the Hitachi trains is far too bright white. The lighting arrangement is poor too, no reading lights or sidewall illumination makes the window seats a bit too dark.
 

brad465

Established Member
Joined
11 Aug 2010
Messages
8,546
Location
Taunton or Kent
100% agree. The colour temperature of the Hitachi trains is far too bright white. The lighting arrangement is poor too, no reading lights or sidewall illumination makes the window seats a bit too dark.
There was a meme I saw a while back highlighting the bright white lights emerging on certain trains and comparing it to what lights should actually be like, saying the bright white should be for the Dentist, not for a train carriage.
 

Brent Goose

Member
Joined
31 Jan 2025
Messages
105
Location
Hampshire
This. When they ran alongside each other, the 442 was (at least for me) the considerably more comfortable option. Comfier seats, lower temperature lighting (which made for a great environment at night), better ride quality. I never felt more tired getting off a 442 after a run down from London than I did when I got on. (At least not due to dealing with hard seats and harsh lighting!) There was something so nice about their environment. At the time I hear it said by many people that the standard class on the 442 was equivalent in comfort to the 444's first class (just without the ability to recline), and the 444's standard class was equivalent to the 450's first class.

Now, with the 442s long gone, the 444s have become the "least worst" option. And I'll admit, having spent significant time travelling on them, I'll agree with @physics34 in that the standard class seats just aren't up to 2 hour journeys. They are by no means as uncomfortable as any of the ironing board seats, and I'll take them over the crap seats in GWR's IEPS, but they're not long distance seats. The old first class seats were pretty decent, though a little more padding would have been nice. Now, with the refit, first class is a downgrade from standard, with the only benefit being the wireless charging built into the tables.

I really did not find the experience of travelling the on class 442s particularly appealing when they were reintroduced on the Portsmouth Direct line.
 

Topological

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Joined
20 Feb 2023
Messages
1,854
Location
Swansea
Of the stock I use semi-regularly

1. Mk4 on TfW - It is a really good refurb. I still wish they did not have them because the Mk4s are unreliable and that results in stealing units off other services. They also had to split the Swansea to Manchester service to accommodate the inadequacy of the locos. Too long dwell times for the service as well. Good trains though
2. 197 on TfW - These are good. Yes they are prone to movement but their comfort is perfectly good for the 4 hour journey and, unlike the Mk4, they do not require the introduction of connections. Quick dwells make up for the blasts of cold air.
3. 390 on Avanti - The refurbs seem good. I always like the train having used them as they replaced the Mk3s. They have a real InterCity feel about them and of course the tilt still feels like it is a modern science thing
4. 22x on CrossCountry - The Bristols to Manchesters seem fine. Usually get 2 seats and they are comfortable. Need better tables for working. On the 07:00 from Temple Meads I can get the table, so then that is perfect. Have to share it between Cheltenham and Stafford, but they are big tables.
5. 80x on GWR - I do not have the problem with these that others have. Yes sometimes you feel the bar, but I usually find I can adjust enough. The bright light works well for working and seems to keep others behaving. Though that might just be a luck thing on when I travel.
6. 153s on TfW - These should also not feature on an Intercity thread, but do because they used to be the staple of my 4-hour journeys. Good refurb from TfW, but not suitable.
7. 150s on TfW - These should also not feature on an Intercity thread, but do because they used to be the staple of my 4-hour journeys. Good refurb from TfW, but not suitable. Unlike the 153s, the whole layout of the 150 screams short distance.

I think that people have different needs from trains really. I suspect I am in a minority being happy with bright light. I think I am in a majority in not caring about the door locations on the 197s, because they are very good for what they do (and better than the Northern 195s).
 

Sad Sprinter

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Joined
5 Jun 2017
Messages
2,528
Location
Way on down South London town
I’m always astonished how wonderful the early Electrostars are to travel on; seats that you melt into, quiet rides, soft colour tones…I can’t think of any train built in the last 15 years that can match that.
 

sh24

Member
Joined
28 Sep 2023
Messages
582
Location
London
I’m always astonished how wonderful the early Electrostars are to travel on; seats that you melt into, quiet rides, soft colour tones…I can’t think of any train built in the last 15 years that can match that.

The 2-2 seat carriages are probably the most comfortable left on the network. Quiet, good ride, seats aligned with windows, decent tables.

Things are getting better - the 458 refurbs are not bad at all - but still not to this standard.
 

dorsetdesiro

Member
Joined
30 Oct 2017
Messages
633
I really did not find the experience of travelling the on class 442s particularly appealing when they were reintroduced on the Portsmouth Direct line.

It was probably down to the different seating fitted to the 442s when in Gatwick Express service before returning to SWR. Those seats weren't as good as the original 442 and the Desiro ones.

I do remember the original NSE 442 seats as very comfortable then SWT retained these only changing the fabric from blue to red. I also agree that the then new Desiro seats weren't as superior when the 444s/450s debuted but are still a lot better than some stock running in other parts of the country.

This shows the perils of privatisation when rolling stock are specified differently across TOCs also varying levels of service, some having buffet cars or only trolley service etc.

When GBR comes into being, hopefully there would be more standardisation and improved service level across long distance services as it will be publicly owned than private. But... it was the DfT that pushed new uncomfortable seats, Sophias and ironing boards by claiming fire regulation which really down to cost cutting also allowing the absurdity of basic commuter trains running long distance from Sussex to Norfolk, the removal of first class etc.

Sadly our country really does not do rail travel justice that I always lower my expectations as I know not to expect Swiss or Japanese standards. However things might perhaps improve in the future when things look bleak at the moment.
 

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