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Delay Repay - responsibility to mitigate delay

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Bishopstone

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For the purposes of calculating eligibility for Delay Repay redress, is there an obligation on the part of the passenger to take a different route from that intended, involving one or more changes rather than a direct train, if that would generate an earlier arrival time than waiting for the next (fairly frequent) direct service?
 
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cuccir

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The general principle is that delays are applied to journeys not services, so yes, if you can still get to your destination via a different route on which your ticket is valid then you're expected to do so. However the specific answer can be a little variable, depending on:

  • the specific Train Operating Company's charter
  • the information given to passengers on the day
  • the ticket held
  • the nature of the diversion

We might be able to give more certain advice to a specific situation.
 

Bishopstone

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The 05.47 Bishopstone - Brighton ran late, for reasons unexplained. The London Bridge connection at Lewes was not held. This gives a scheduled arrival time of 07.20

No advice was given to passengers one way or the other, but I opted to stay on the 'branch' train to Brighton. The alternative was to await the next direct LBG train at Lewes, the 06.48, which is scheduled to arrive at 08.04

I jumped on the 06.29 GatEx at Brighton, although this is not an official connection. My office is walkable/busable from Victoria, albeit not quite as convenient as LBG.

However, had I maintained LBG as my destination, as originally intended, I see there was a 06.37 from Brighton which does conform to minimum connection time policies off my branch train. This is scheduled to arrive LBG at 07.48, being 28 minutes after I should have arrived there.

My delay repay claim (30-60 minutes) has been declined. No reason is detailed, but I presume because - per my original post - a customer is supposed to re-plan their route on the hoof to mitigate their delay. Which I did, through the wonders of smartphones. I assume, on the day in question, the 06.37 Brighton - London Bridge ran bang on time.

Seaford branch - London Terminals tickets are valid via Brighton, so no issues with going outside the routing validity. Although many leisure travellers would not be aware of that easement (for want of a better word).
 

WelshBluebird

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Surely you can't expect a passenger to know every route they could possibly take in order to reduce the delay?
Following advice from station staff, then yes. But not knowing on their own that they could have gone a different way.
 

maniacmartin

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I think you did what a reasonable person would have done. You made the best alternative plans you could have done with the information that was to hand at the time.

I would go back to Southern asking how you were expected to decide whether to stay on the branch line or alight and how you were supposed to replan the journey to perfection without spending more time causing more delay to your journey.
 

Starshina

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A related question. If a passenger could mitigate the delay but choses not to can they still claim for the original delay as if they had mitigated it?

Example - Travelling on a train that falls further and further behind timetable and eventually terminates short of the scheduled destination. Advised to wait on the platform for the next train but that was itself running late and when it arrived it was already full and standing. Knowing that the next train was only 10 minutes later I decided to wait and get that, a good decision as the next train was almost empty.

So can I claim for the 67 minutes late I would have been if I had got on the full and standing train? Obviously I wouldn't claim for the 75 minutes I was actually late by as it was my choice not to get on the earlier train.
 

Starmill

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I would say so, yes.

I agree, if the replacement itnierary following disruption is provided by staff.

In this case that appears not to have happened.

However I'm not clear - did OP reach his desk 30 or more minutes later than he should have? If yes I would argue you do have grounds for compensation, given it appears you've made the most possible effort to minimise your delay by re-planning.

For my part, if I am not sure what the fastest available way to complete my journey is following disruption, and I can't, for whatever reason, get any assistance from staff, I'd stick to my original route.
 
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Bishopstone

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I agree, if the replacement itnierary following disruption is provided by staff.

In this case that appears not to have happened.

However I'm not clear - did OP reach his desk 30 or more minutes later than he should have? If yes I would argue you do have grounds for compensation, given it appears you've made the most possible effort to minimise your delay by re-planning.

I was only 20 minutes late to my desk, following:

i) Re-planning the journey myself
ii) Use of an unofficial connection at Brighton
iii) Getting a bus from Victoria, where I habitually walk to the office from LBG

However, for Delay Repay purposes I'm sure the time I arrive at my workstation, some way from the railway station, is not a relevant factor as it's subject to many other variables.

I submitted my claim based upon the next available connection from Lewes, whereas Southern have based their refusal - it seems - upon the availability of an earlier arrival time (:wub:0 minutes late) via a self-guided alternative route, albeit (I admit) not a particularly obscure one for an informed commuter.

I'm not going to get this out of proportion for six quid, but I am inclined to revert to Southern and ask them to show their working, to confirm the reason for the denial and the wider principle that the onus is on the customer to amend their intended routing independently, to mitigate delay.
 

najaB

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I would say so, yes.
Unless the railway provides an alternate itinerary, I would say the opposite. The passenger can't be expected to know what trains are/are not running on time, and what connections can/can not be made. If the passenger manages to minimise their delay then good on them, but not everyone has benefit of realtime trains or a tracking app on their phone/laptop.
 

CheesyChips

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Unless the railway provides an alternate itinerary, I would say the opposite. The passenger can't be expected to know what trains are/are not running on time, and what connections can/can not be made. If the passenger manages to minimise their delay then good on them, but not everyone has benefit of realtime trains or a tracking app on their phone/laptop.

The railway is certainly a very different place when you don't have a smartphone
 

yorkie

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If you are not delayed by 30+ mins then you are not entitled to compensation.

If you were delayed by 30+ mins then you are, unless - in my opinion - you acted in a way that was either deliberate, or perhaps careless.

A related question. If a passenger could mitigate the delay but choses not to can they still claim for the original delay as if they had mitigated it?

Example - Travelling on a train that falls further and further behind timetable and eventually terminates short of the scheduled destination. Advised to wait on the platform for the next train but that was itself running late and when it arrived it was already full and standing. Knowing that the next train was only 10 minutes later I decided to wait and get that, a good decision as the next train was almost empty.

So can I claim for the 67 minutes late I would have been if I had got on the full and standing train? Obviously I wouldn't claim for the 75 minutes I was actually late by as it was my choice not to get on the earlier train.
Yes, claim for the 67minute delay. The additional 8 mins was your choice to obtain greater comfort.
 

Bletchleyite

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I submitted my claim based upon the next available connection from Lewes, whereas Southern have based their refusal - it seems - upon the availability of an earlier arrival time (:wub:0 minutes late) via a self-guided alternative route, albeit (I admit) not a particularly obscure one for an informed commuter.

So you're saying you incurred under 30 minutes' delay by being clever (thus not being eligible) but want to claim for as if it was over 30 minutes?

If so Southern are correct. You did not arrive over 30 minutes late, so you are not entitled to Delay Repay.
 

30907

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As OJP shows 0609 LWS-LBG 0748 via BTN as the next service after the 0606, I think Southern are within their rights on this occasion .
 

tony_mac

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I submitted my claim based upon the next available connection from Lewes
But you didn't take that connection.

Perhaps you don't realise it, but it looks somewhat dishonest to make a claim 'based upon' an itinerary that you did not actually travel on.
 

Panda

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I was only 20 minutes late to my desk
So you were not delayed by more than 30 minutes to your destination.
I submitted my claim based upon the next available connection from Lewes
Quite simply - delay repay claims should be based on what actually happened, not what could have or should have happened. It is not a compensation for inconvenience of what happens during your journey - it is compensation for being late to your destination.
 

Starmill

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I pointed to the time of arrival at desk because I thought if you'd arrived less than 30 mins late at Victoria (compared to the time you should have arrived at London Bridge) and the extra bus or walking time to your office meant you were more than 30 minutes late by the time you got there, you would have a valid complaint - although possibly not a claim.

However, if you were less than 30 mins late at both your desk and the station, then I do not understand the problem.

Edit: Well if you'll allow me to rephrase, of course I understand the problem. It's intensely frustrating I'm sure to arrive late at all at your actual destination when you've made the effort to get up at 5am - particularly if it was a connection you missed by moments and the onus to sort that out as quickly as possible was left on you. But I don't think this can change the Delay Repay scheme unfortunately. Sorry.
 
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cornishjohn

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I can see where OP is coming from, but what EXACTLY did you claim for? In particular, did you say to Southern that you went to Brighton? [ I guess they can figure it out though]

The journey planners all show the 0609 dep/0748 arrival as a sensible journey from Lewes. Indeed, it appears to be the next official routeing after the missed 0606 departure.

However, when getting off the train at Lewes would there have been time to be told to do this? Is there any sort of "Next train to London" display? It doesn't appear to be an obvious routeing based on the PDF timetable downloads from Southern. I'm puzzled as to how OP "knew" to get the Victoria train, but didn't "know" about the London Bridge shortly after.

But getting to London 19 minutes late instead of 28 minutes late doesn't appear to give much basis for a claim anyway.
 

Bishopstone

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The story is made more complicated by my decision to head for Victoria rather than London Bridge, on the basis that was the first London departure from Brighton when I arrived there, and (if I recall correctly) the stock for the London Bridge train was not in the platform.

There is an issue with short notice cancellations early morning from Brighton, when they discover problems with the stock upon start-up from Lovers Walk depot, or the crew fail to arrive (1), hence my decision that a train in the platform, about to leave for London, was worth two on the departures board. My commuting philosophy, during disruption and when time is pressing, is to get to Zone 1 and worry about the rest later.

I consider I have a claim based upon the time I would have arrived at London Bridge station - not Victoria, or my desk - had I not re-arranged my 'final mile' at some inconvenience, to get to work as soon as possible.

I think - to paraphrase - some are suggesting I have invalidated any claim entirely, by changing my destination in response to disruption and arriving :wub:0 minutes late into Victoria as an 'equivalent', although that isn't really where I wanted to be.

Others have suggested - a good point - that after the missed connection at Lewes, the next option showing on journey planner is the move to Brighton followed by the London Bridge train which would give a figure of 28 late at LBG, assuming this ran to time on the date concerned.

So I go back to my original question, which was broader than the specifics here:

If a passenger intended to travel via Plumpton, and rail staff do not provide guidance on alternatives, should the passenger 'know' about the journey via Brighton being quicker than awaiting the next direct service? Therefore, should Delay Repay claims be automatically rejected on this basis?

I imagine the scheme rules must cover this scenario: perhaps they just work off Journey Planner, as hinted by a couple of posters? I can see the logic in that, and also that strict application along these lines minimises fraudulent claims, but if this sort of robust approach is to be taken by the TOCs, I feel they should be held to account for the quality of the on-train information they provide around connection opportunities during times of disruption.

(It's probably incidental, but on the day in question the branch train ran 6-7 minutes late. Experience suggested the LBG connection would probably be held at Lewes, and indeed might be held at Southerham Junction for us to proceed ahead into the station.

The conductor checked tickets at Newhaven, was aware of the tight connection but commented that as the LBG train was reported 2-3 minutes down at Polegate, it would almost certainly be held. We were then subject to a severe signal check at Southerham, where it became clear the LBG train had been pathed ahead. As we entered the pointwork at Lewes station, the conductor - or possibly the driver, who had received a radio call audible from the front compartment - came on the PA to note the London train had not been held. No further advice was provided, and the conductor did not visit the carriage again during the remainder of the journey.

The point I'm getting to is that, even with a smartphone in hand, there was insufficient time to examine options before making the call as to whether to 'stay' or 'leap' at Lewes.)

(1) Exemplified by the lateness of the 05.47 from BIP which started this saga.
 

Bletchleyite

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I consider I have a claim based upon the time I would have arrived at London Bridge station - not Victoria, or my desk - had I not re-arranged my 'final mile' at some inconvenience, to get to work as soon as possible.

I think - to paraphrase - some are suggesting I have invalidated any claim entirely, by changing my destination in response to disruption and arriving :wub:0 minutes late into Victoria as an 'equivalent', although that isn't really where I wanted to be.

If you didn't *actually* go to London Bridge, yes, that is my view. The claim is based on what *did* happen with reasonable efforts to mitigate additional delay, not what *could* have happened.
 

Panda

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I think - to paraphrase - some are suggesting I have invalidated any claim entirely, by changing my destination in response to disruption and arriving :wub:0 minutes late into Victoria as an 'equivalent', although that isn't really where I wanted to be.
Not quite. You never had a valid claim until you are 30 minutes late at your destination (which is the railway station as correctly pointed out earlier, not your desk), so nothing was invalidated.

If it wasn't really where you wanted to be, then you shouldn't have gone there.

You used a service and the service was provided with less than a 30 minute delay to the official advertised time it would take. No claim. You cannot claim for a service you intended to use, but never did because you found a better one which delivered you in a reasonable amount of time.
 

319321

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I was going to make a post about using the time for the fixed link between London Victoria and London Bridge in your calculation of the final time you arrived at your destination, but alas there isn't an official one. Unofficially, its a 56m walk though!
 
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talltim

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Not quite. You never had a valid claim until you are 30 minutes late at your destination (which is the railway station as correctly pointed out earlier, not your desk), so nothing was invalidated.

If it wasn't really where you wanted to be, then you shouldn't have gone there.

You used a service and the service was provided with less than a 30 minute delay to the official advertised time it would take. No claim. You cannot claim for a service you intended to use, but never did because you found a better one which delivered you in a reasonable amount of time.
If you are going by the arrival time at the original destination station, in theory he could not have arrived there yet and be days late...
 

maniacmartin

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Interestingly one on occasion a customer services adviser on the phone from a TOC which I shall leave unnamed told me that they are happy to entertain Delay Repay based on the original intended destination, even if due to disruption the passenger replans the journey en-route to go to a different destination.

Obviously this may not apply to all TOCs, and one would have to be explicit in the claim describing what transpired so not to be accused of submitting a fraudulent claim
 

Tom B

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Yes, claim for the 67minute delay. The additional 8 mins was your choice to obtain greater comfort.

What if the train is full and standing, and it is impossible to get on?
 

IanD

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If you are going by the arrival time at the original destination station, in theory he could not have arrived there yet and be days late...

Wasn't the destination London Terminals which he undoubtedly arrived at less than 30 minutes late?
 

talldave

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Wasn't the destination London Terminals which he undoubtedly arrived at less than 30 minutes late?

Surely, the destination is where you're going (a physical station), not what's printed on the ticket?
 
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