Delayed Paddington - Heathrow T4

[kingston]

Hi,

I travelled recently from Paddington to Heathrow T4 using the Heathrow Express, but the connecting Heathrow Connect train services were suspended. I was told to continue to T5 and take a bus, and arrived over 30 minutes late to T4.

By that time it would have been quicker and cheaper to get the tube from my origin (Vauxhall) rather than paying the heavy premium for the Heathrow Express.

I was told on the train I'd be eligible to receive compensation for the delay.

I contacted Heathrow Express shortly after, they eventually responded to me many weeks later today saying that I was not eligible for any compensation as the Heathrow Connect is free.

This really doesn't feel fair...

 

[AlterEgo]

Heathrow Express are not liable for a delay caused by a completely different company, Heathrow Connect.

There isn’t any compensation due from Heathrow Express.

What was the destination printed on your ticket?

 

[kingston]

"Heathrow"

 

[Haywain]

If you are due any compensation it would be from Heathrow Connect, as they are the company that delayed you. There is an argument that the compensation will be to the full value of your journey with them which was, of course, nothing. But f you don't ask...

 

[AlterEgo]

"Heathrow"

You’re not due anything I’m afraid. As @Haywain says you may claim the value of the delayed journey from Heathrow Connect.

The value of the journey is £0, as Heathrow Express tickets are not valid on Connect. They literally transport you for free and you have no contract with them.

 

[matt_world2004]

Heathrow connect wasnt a completely different company before last week.

You’re not due anything I’m afraid. As @Haywain says you may claim the value of the delayed journey from Heathrow Connect.

The value of the journey is £0, as Heathrow Express tickets are not valid on Connect. They literally transport you for free and you have no contract with them.

They were before last week and this incident happened several weeks ago

 

[Clip]

Heathrow connect wasnt a completely different company before last week.



They were before last week and this incident happened several weeks ago

it was wasnt it as it was run in partnership with gwr surely?

 

[father_jack]

"Heathrow"

There is no destination "Heathrow". There will be "Heathrow Rail" with a route as per here http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=PAD&dest=3081

 

[Haywain]

it was wasnt it as it was run in partnership with gwr surely?

I think that this statement:

They were before last week and this incident happened several weeks ago

referred to this:

The value of the journey is £0, as Heathrow Express tickets are not valid on Connect.

rather than Heathrow Connect being a different company.

However, the idea that tickets were or were not valid is not really relevant to this as the journey between T23 and T4 did not require a ticket of any sort at that time.

 

[Clip]

ahh may have misread it

 

[furlong]

If the ticket said 'HEATHROW RAIL' that is a fare group that includes 3 destinations HEATHROW TERM123, HEATHROW TERM 4 and HEATHROW TERM 5. Presumably in your case the contract you had was for a journey to HEATHROW TERM 4. (That the railway also permits people to make a journey on part of the route without a ticket is a red herring.)

 

[matt_world2004]

If the ticket said 'HEATHROW RAIL' that is a fare group that includes 3 destinations HEATHROW TERM123, HEATHROW TERM 4 and HEATHROW TERM 5. Presumably in your case the contract you had was for a journey to HEATHROW TERM 4. (That the railway also permits people to make a journey on part of the route without a ticket is a red herring.)

Thats my understanding too.

 

[AlterEgo]

Under which conditions of carriage would the ticket have been issued/governed?

 

[matt_world2004]

Under which conditions of carriage would the ticket have been issued/governed?

Assuming they havent been changed since 20th may

https://m.heathrowexpress.com/Account/ConditionsOfCarriage

 

[furlong]

No - it depends on the date the ticket was purchased - before 2nd May or not.

 

[kingston]

There is no destination "Heathrow". There will be "Heathrow Rail" with a route as per here http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=PAD&dest=3081

The destination on my eTicket is "Heathrow".

 

[kingston]

You’re not due anything I’m afraid. As @Haywain says you may claim the value of the delayed journey from Heathrow Connect.

The value of the journey is £0, as Heathrow Express tickets are not valid on Connect. They literally transport you for free and you have no contract with them.

I thought (e.g. from split ticketing) that your journey is your journey from A-B, not on a leg-by-leg basis. As I understood it, my journey is from Paddington to Heathrow (T4), via Heathrow Central/T23 etc.

If I took a train Reading-Vauxhall or Reading-Waterloo, both tickets are the same price but that wouldn't make a Vauxhall-Waterloo journey 'free' if I changed trains, and I would expect compensation if I was delayed past the compensation threshold if I tried to make a Vauxhall-Waterloo journey??

 

[AlterEgo]

I thought (e.g. from split ticketing) that your journey is your journey from A-B, not on a leg-by-leg basis. As I understood it, my journey is from Paddington to Heathrow (T4), via Heathrow Central/T23 etc.

If I took a train Reading-Vauxhall or Reading-Waterloo, both tickets are the same price but that wouldn't make a Vauxhall-Waterloo journey 'free' if I changed trains, and I would expect compensation if I was delayed past the compensation threshold if I tried to make a Vauxhall-Waterloo journey??

That’s not the question exactly. There is no suggestion there was any split ticketing involved here.

What is important is the question of whether, despite the fact the T4 shuttle runs for free, the OP had a contract to get to T4.

I don’t agree that he did. He had a contract to get to “Heathrow Rail”, which was delivered when he was deposited at T2/3 at the end of his paid journey.

It’s a free shuttle service, and there is, in my opinion, no compensation due. You’d have to get a lawyer to look at it and provide something authoritative, which would be a waste of time. Just write it off.

 

[Muzer]

That’s not the question exactly. There is no suggestion there was any split ticketing involved here.

What is important is the question of whether, despite the fact the T4 shuttle runs for free, the OP had a contract to get to T4.

I don’t agree that he did. He had a contract to get to “Heathrow Rail”, which was delivered when he was deposited at T2/3 at the end of his paid journey.

It’s a free shuttle service, and there is, in my opinion, no compensation due. You’d have to get a lawyer to look at it and provide something authoritative, which would be a waste of time. Just write it off.

So you would say that a Clapham Junction to London Terminals ticket is fulfilled when a passenger is dumped unceremoniously at Vauxhall and the train brought out of service, since Vauxhall is part of the London Terminals fare group? I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with your reasoning. The contract is not to go to any Heathrow station the railway company feels like. It's to go to any Heathrow station the *passenger* feels like, just like a Clapham Junction to London Terminals ticket can be a contract to go to Charing Cross if the passenger wishes.

 

[bb21]

It is worth bearing in mind Heathrow Express are not subject to the National Rail Conditions of Travel, and it is far from clear whether an operator subject to the NRCoT (Heathrow Connect in this case) is liable for compensation on the part of an inclusive fare to an operator not party to the agreement.

Is the ticket an inclusive product even, with an add-on element on Heathrow Express, or is it simply a product sold on behalf of Heathrow Express for travel on their services exclusively, with the free leg merely helpful advice on inter-terminal transfer?

 

[furlong]

It is worth bearing in mind Heathrow Express are not subject to the National Rail Conditions of Travel

Which is why the OP needs to reveal the date they purchased the ticket, the date of travel and the precise ticket details - and it's further complicated by the claim that the company agreed to provide (unspecified?) compensation at the time of the incident (which the company might dispute) and that we don't know whether or not the passenger incurred additional costs as a direct result of the delay.

and it is far from clear whether an operator subject to the NRCoT (Heathrow Connect in this case) is liable for compensation on the part of an inclusive fare to an operator not party to the agreement.

The current sets of conditions contain some contradictions which might or might not be relevant - there really isn't enough information provided to offer meaningful comment.

 

[najaB]

So you would say that a Clapham Junction to London Terminals ticket is fulfilled when a passenger is dumped unceremoniously at Vauxhall and the train brought out of service, since Vauxhall is part of the London Terminals fare group?

I would say 'Yes' to that situation, however it's likely that they would allow passengers to catch a following service to Waterloo.

 

[AlterEgo]

So you would say that a Clapham Junction to London Terminals ticket is fulfilled when a passenger is dumped unceremoniously at Vauxhall and the train brought out of service, since Vauxhall is part of the London Terminals fare group? I'm sorry, but I completely disagree with your reasoning. The contract is not to go to any Heathrow station the railway company feels like. It's to go to any Heathrow station the *passenger* feels like, just like a Clapham Junction to London Terminals ticket can be a contract to go to Charing Cross if the passenger wishes.

I don’t agree.

Unlike the example you gave, the Heathrow T4 shuttle is entirely free, and is advertised as such. I think it is an important distinction.

Other posters have raised other factors which are important too.

The OP is best advised to suck this one up and chalk it down to experience. You’ll live a better life this way than by arguing the toss over whether you can be compensated for a free shuttle not running.

 

[Muzer]

I don’t agree.

Unlike the example you gave, the Heathrow T4 shuttle is entirely free, and is advertised as such. I think it is an important distinction.

Other posters have raised other factors which are important too.

The OP is best advised to suck this one up and chalk it down to experience. You’ll live a better life this way than by arguing the toss over whether you can be compensated for a free shuttle not running.

Say they had a first class ticket. Would that change your view? Because a first class ticket allows you to travel in first class in the shuttle, which you can't do for free.

 

[JN114]

Say they had a first class ticket. Would that change your view? Because a first class ticket allows you to travel in first class in the shuttle, which you can't do for free.

The CTA - T4 shuttle doesn’t have First Class; it’s ordinarily a 360/2. On occasion Heathrow turned out a 332 on it; and I was never ticket checked while on board.

Between CTA and T5 on the Express I’ve been told by the on-train crew that First Class is only for First Class ticket holders. Given HX’s conditions of travel are entirely different to NRCoT I wasn’t sure where I stood on the matter so left.

But it’s not exactly pertinent advice to the OP.

Neither the Heathrow Express nor archive copies of Heathrow Connect passenger charter make any provision for delay compensation for delays incurred between CTA and T4. With Heathrow Express not being an ordinary operator NRCoT does not apply; and thus I’m reasonably confident that unfortunately you are not entitled to anything; and you were misinformed by staff. The CTA - T4 shuttle is not usually staffed by a CSA in my experience; so I’m not sure who would have been on board to advise you that you were entitled.

 

[matt_world2004]

I don’t agree.

Unlike the example you gave, the Heathrow T4 shuttle is entirely free, and is advertised as such. I think it is an important distinction.

Other posters have raised other factors which are important too.

The OP is best advised to suck this one up and chalk it down to experience. You’ll live a better life this way than by arguing the toss over whether you can be compensated for a free shuttle not running.

I dont think this is the case the op had a ticket to heathrow rail; which covered three destinations terminal 5, 2&3 and terminal 4 . regardless of if the journey between terminal 2& 3 and 4 is free. The operator failed to deliver them to their destination.heathrow express and connect at the time the op travelled were the same company .both are run by Heathrow Express Operating company limited

 

[AlterEgo]

I dont think this is the case the op had a ticket to heathrow rail; which covered three destinations terminal 5, 2&3 and terminal 4 . regardless of if the journey between terminal 2& 3 and 4 is free. The operator failed to deliver them to their destination.heathrow express and connect at the time the op travelled were the same company .both are run by Heathrow Express Operating company limited

The operator delivered them to Heathrow Rail. I don’t agree that a ticket to Heathrow Rail means the passenger has given legal consideration to getting to Heathrow T4, which is advertised, and runs in practice as, a free train.

The contract doesn’t say the OP has paid to get to T4, only to Heathrow, which they did.

Say they had a first class ticket. Would that change your view? Because a first class ticket allows you to travel in first class in the shuttle, which you can't do for free.

In my untrained opinion the passenger has still not given legal consideration in that example either.

As far as I know none of us are contract lawyers so the thread’s a load of hot air anyway, but I’m amused at the concept of claiming for a free inter-terminal shuttle. It seems to be only me that thinks it’s ridiculous (and yes I know the OP was told to claim by staff!).

 

[matt_world2004]

The operator delivered them to Heathrow Rail. I don’t agree that a ticket to Heathrow Rail means the passenger has given legal consideration to getting to Heathrow T4, which is advertised, and runs in practice as, a free train.
.

Heathrow rail is not a station name. Its a station group.

 

[AlterEgo]

Heathrow rail is not a station name. Its a station group.

I know that. I don’t agree that if you buy a ticket to a station group, that the company has to get you to a specific station in that group of your choice, to fulfil their contract. The contract is to get the passenger to “Heathrow Rail”. That happened.

 

[JN114]

It’s not part of the national network. All of the usual “rights” (for lack of a better phrase) are out of the window.

Comparisons to what one might get covered for on the national network - travel to other destinations in a station group and so on are irrelevant.

All that matters is what’s in Heathrow Express / Connect conditions of travel and charter - They make no mention of any form of delay compensation for late running on the shuttle, only on Express services between Paddington and Heathrow - which as we know from post 1 was on time. It appears as of the OP has unfortunately been mis-advised by someone - purportedly staff on a normally unstaffed train - as to their rights.

They can take that matter up with HX; but from my reading of the Heathrow conditions of travel they aren’t entitled to anything unfortunately.