Derailment at Ramsgate (29/11/24)

[Nicholas Lewis]

According to my sources, the plan is to drag it out with a road-rail vehicle (RRV) as a tractor, but underframe components beneath the 395 need to be unscrewed or welded off before this can happen. The train is solidly indented into the ground.

I doubt an RRV would have the grunt to move it its buried in the ground

Can't use a crane because if you notice the position of the photos and video's, there's a ruddy pedestrian bridge above it!

A Kirow 1200 crane could lift the power car from its position its clear of the o/b. This would allow the rear bogie to be rerailed and then slew the power car back under the o/b and drop the cab end onto a temp bogie to get it moved somewhere it could then be recovered by a road crane to be transported back to Ashford or a works location.

Regardless, the amount of time this is taking is an absolute laughing stock.

Have to say the DB rail recovery gangs from Toton did some excellent loco recoveries for us on renewals just using jacks within 12hrs of being called out but we did have rails under the derailed vehicles!

 

[MotCO]

Could the end carriage be uncoupled, and swung by crane onto the adjacent running line? That would save any dragging back onto the siding tracks.

 

[Steve Harris]

According to my sources, the plan is to drag it out with a road-rail vehicle (RRV) as a tractor, but underframe components beneath the 395 need to be unscrewed or welded off before this can happen. The train is solidly indented into the ground.

Can't use a crane because if you notice the position of the photos and video's, there's a ruddy pedestrian bridge above it!

Regardless, the amount of time this is taking is an absolute laughing stock.

That would be "cut off" then, lol. As you can only weld things together, the reverse function is cutting, usually by means of a disc cutter, oxy-acetylene or plasma torch (or using gouging rods, which are used in welding plant), although you can use other cutting tools like a hacksaw

 

[merry]

Have to say the DB rail recovery gangs from Toton did some excellent loco recoveries for us on renewals just using jacks within 12hrs of being called out but we did have rails under the derailed vehicles!

Historicaly, the way to make such a recovery would have been to jack the vehicle up a little, with stabilising ropes/cables as required to prevent overturning. Then insert temporary track to the siding under the safely supported vehicle (by hand...), lower onto this track, and haul it away onto the siding (using buffer wagons as required to keep locos off the temp track). Cranes were not often used for a wholesale lift unless there was no option.
Now, this is hard (but likely not impossible) to achieve with modern safety levels, and is labour intensive - the people, skills & equipment have to be available. It is a much more rare occurence than in wagonload freight days meaning there is less of both skill & equipment around. So whilst possible it may now be impractical to use the traditional techniques.

 

[DelW]

That would be "cut off" then, lol. As you can only weld things together, the reverse function is cutting, usually by means of a disc cutter, oxy-acetylene or plasma torch (or using gouging rods, which are used in welding plant), although you can use other cutting tools like a hacksaw

If the local metal thieves have been as busy as the rattle-can painters have been, there may not be much electrical equipment left to remove by the time it's eventually recovered.

 

[Taunton]

Now, this is hard (but likely not impossible) to achieve with modern safety levels, and is labour intensive - the people, skills & equipment have to be available.

The road recovery industry works well and quickly with exactly this style of approach (and presumably the same safety legislation) for dealing with heavy trucks off the road. You never see one of them left at the side of the motorway for two months. It's only the rail industry it seems which has become frightened of their own shadow.

Actually it's surprising the whole recovery has not become a "project", with site cabins, self-congratulatory PR press releases, grinning team photos in Modern Railways, its own logo, and all the rest.

 

[Christmas]

That would be "cut off" then, lol. As you can only weld things together, the reverse function is cutting, usually by means of a disc cutter, oxy-acetylene or plasma torch (or using gouging rods, which are used in welding plant), although you can use other cutting tools like a hacksaw

Things are cut off by an angle grinder. Disc cutter is another annoying Americanism that I'm hearing, like pruners instead of secateurs.

Anyway, would a crane be able to be sited on or near the bridge above?

 

[Steve Harris]

Things are cut off with an angle grinder. Disc cutter is another annoying Americanism that I'm hearing, like pruners instead of secateurs.

Oops !! A grinding wheel grinds !!

You use a cutting disc to cut, I should know, I did a apprenticeship in engineering, specifically fabrication and welding, (Although the old boys would say "put a cutting disk in that 9" angle grinder will you son" 40 years ago) your still cutting and not grinding even though your using an "angle grinder" (which is the name of the machine), so using the term angle grinding/grinder when cutting is factually incorrect.

And the term disc cutter has come in due to the introduction of portable battery powered tools, you can use to cut things (like exhaust pipes, hence the explosion in catalytic converter thefts) because they are used more for cutting than grinding.

You may not like the term, but it's here to stay, as it's already wildly used in industry.

If the local metal thieves have been as busy as the rattle-can painters have been, there may not be much electrical equipment left to remove by the time it's eventually recovered.

That depends if they have invested in a battery powered disc cutter

 

[MarkyT]

I suspect part of the problem with recovery is that it would be disruptive to operations at this large busy depot where much of Kent's long-distance rolling stock spends the night shuffling around being cleaned, tanked, maintained etc. Compounding the problem might be that with the headshunt blocked, many more shunt movements to and from sidings on the south side of the station may have to use the adjacent up line towards Minster. During the day there are many passenger movements passing on that line too. There is a minimal 'ten foot' between the lines here but probably not enough to establish a sensible fenced green zone to work in with traffic passing on the adjacent line. There's a road overbridge support pillar in that 10ft too and it looks fairly minimal in construction, so maybe there's also a concern a wrong move during recovery might damage the support and result in a failure of the bridge.

Here's Manston Rd cast in situ concrete overbridge looking rather new in this 1934 aerial shot. It appears to be the same structure today.
From https://www.britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW043753

 

[DelW]

Things are cut off by an angle grinder. Disc cutter is another annoying Americanism that I'm hearing, like pruners instead of secateurs.

Anyway, would a crane be able to be sited on or near the bridge above?

You use a cutting disc to cut, I should know, I did a apprenticeship in engineering, specifically fabrication and welding, (Although the old boys would say "put a cutting disk in that 9" angle grinder will you son" 40 years ago) your still cutting and not grinding even though your using an "angle grinder" (which is the name of the machine), so using the term angle grinding/grinder when cutting is factually incorrect.

And the term disc cutter has come in due to the introduction of portable battery powered tools, you can use to cut things (like exhaust pipes, hence the explosion in catalytic converter thefts) because they are used more for cutting than grinding.

When I worked on civil engineering sites in the 1970s and '80s we referred to disc cutters, though they were always petrol powered back then. Angle grinders were a different beast.

Operating a high capacity crane standing on top of or immediately adjacent to a 90 year old bridge* would be a "brave" move (in Yes Minister speak). Later in my career I did lots of crane-loading assessments and outrigger pad foundation designs, and it's not one I'd have been keen to sign off.

*per @MarkyT's useful post above.

 

[Christmas]

Oops !! A grinding wheel grinds !!

You use a cutting disc to cut, I should know, I did a apprenticeship in engineering, specifically fabrication and welding, (Although the old boys would say "put a cutting disk in that 9" angle grinder will you son" 40 years ago) your still cutting and not grinding even though your using an "angle grinder" (which is the name of the machine), so using the term angle grinding/grinder when cutting is factually incorrect.

And the term disc cutter has come in due to the introduction of portable battery powered tools, you can use to cut things (like exhaust pipes, hence the explosion in catalytic converter thefts) because they are used more for cutting than grinding.

You may not like the term, but it's here to stay, as it's already wildly used in industry.


That depends if they have invested in a battery powered disc cutter

I'll concede that a disc is used to cut, but as you did point out, it is attached to the angle grinder.

 

[Trainguy34]

Any updates in the past 11 days or is it still there?

 

[Class 466]

Any updates in the past 11 days or is it still there?

Very much still in situ and will be for a few weeks yet at least.

 

[Strathclyder]

Over two months now and still stuck there (likely to make it three months before it's even removed, never mind repaired and returned to service). Perfectly reasonable causes as to why as already outlined, but those passengers having to use the shortformed services will, rightly or wrongly, view this as a farce. Part of me does too, despite myself.

Any other locos/units involved in similar incidents* left in place for longer than a month? Given how the graffiti 'artists' have already paid it more than one visit, it wouldn't at all surprise me if more damage has been done by vandals in the same timeframe. More than what coming off the rails in the first place did and what being stuck out in the elements in the depths of winter for over two months would do on it's own.


*: barring those that were outright withdrawn/written off pending scrapping in-situ after recovery was deemed more costly than what the loco/vehicle was worth; I.E the original 66734 at Loch Treig

 

[43096]

Over two months now and still stuck there (likely to make it three months before it's even removed, never mind repaired and returned to service). Perfectly reasonable causes as to why as already outlined, but those passengers having to use the shortformed services will, rightly or wrongly, view this as a farce. Part of me does too, despite myself.

Any other locos/units involved in similar incidents* left in place for longer than a month? Given how the graffiti 'artists' have already paid it more than one visit, it wouldn't at all surprise me if more damage has been done by vandals in the same timeframe. More than what coming off the rails in the first place did and what being stuck out in the elements in the depths of winter for over two months would do on it's own.


*: barring those that were outright withdrawn/written off pending scrapping in-situ after recovery was deemed more costly than what the loco/vehicle was worth; I.E the original 66734 at Loch Treig

Just one example, there are undoubtedly others: 56062 derailed at Copyhold Junction on 14 June 1988, going down an embankment. It was not recovered until October and was taken to Doncaster Works for repair.

 

[MrJeeves]

Just one example, there are undoubtedly others: 56062 derailed at Copyhold Junction on 14 June 1988, going down an embankment. It was not recovered until October and was taken to Doncaster Works for repair.

Thanks for making me find this!

 

[racyrich]

I'm reminded of this loco rescue.

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[NSEWonderer]

Just one example, there are undoubtedly others: 56062 derailed at Copyhold Junction on 14 June 1988, going down an embankment. It was not recovered until October and was taken to Doncaster Works for repair.

I wouldn't be surprised now if a similar length of time occurs for this unit to be recovered. Honestly surprised it's stuck still.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I wouldn't be surprised now if a similar length of time occurs for this unit to be recovered. Honestly surprised it's stuck still.

That was a far trickier recovery although there was also 37143 which came to grief at Marine Colliery,Ebbw Vale on Jan 29 1975 and wasn't recovered till Aug 4 1975.

 

[NSEWonderer]

That was a far trickier recovery although there was also 37143 which came to grief at Marine Colliery,Ebbw Vale on Jan 29 1975 and wasn't recovered till Aug 4 1975.

View attachment 174250

Oh dang, that indeed would have been tricky.

 

[rwalk365]

The rumour is that it's getting moved this weekend. I'm highly sceptical though!

 

[brad465]

The rumour is that it's getting moved this weekend. I'm highly sceptical though!

The line is shut south of Ramsgate on Saturday, so trains terminate at Deal or Minster. On Sunday there's a closure through to Margate as well, such that the whole Ramsgate area is closed, so there is certainly the opportunity to move it.

 

[trainmania100]

0Z99 to Ramsgate on Saturday, another Salisbury style move with a cable? I was expecting a kirow crane at the least

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[800001]

0Z99 to Ramsgate on Saturday, another Salisbury style move with a cable? I was expecting a kirow crane at the least

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Rumours of cutting some pieces of the underneath of train off, placing some temporary line from where rail ends to the unit, and pulling it back onto track.

 

[brad465]

The below FB post is full of pictures confirming the removal operation is very much underway at last, I've pasted a couple of key images in for those with no FB access:

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(Images of 395008 being prepared for removal, surrounded by engineering staff and a Class 66 loco in shot)

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The below FB post is full of pictures confirming the removal operation is very much underway at last, I've pasted a couple of key images in for those with no FB access:

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(Images of 395008 being prepared for removal, surrounded by engineering staff and a Class 66 loco in shot)

They've got a jacking pin above the bogie and see its the DB crew who can do wonders with a few bits of wood and a hydraulic jack.

 

[75A]

Was all that graffiti on the unit before it arrived, or have the local 'artists' been in action?

 

[NSEWonderer]

Was all that graffiti on the unit before it arrived, or have the local 'artists' been in action?

Happened during its long spell of derailment

 

[renegademaster]

The below FB post is full of pictures confirming the removal operation is very much underway at last, I've pasted a couple of key images in for those with no FB access:

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(Images of 395008 being prepared for removal, surrounded by engineering staff and a Class 66 loco in shot)

What's the gas cylinders for?

 

[cjmillsnun]

What's the gas cylinders for?

Nitrogen, probably for the jacks.