Derailment near Carlisle - 19/10/2022 - 1715 Clitheroe Castle Cement Gb to Carlisle N.Y. (6C00)

[GB]

There are thermal detectors that have a wider view of the passing train but these a few and far between and seem to have more false positives than not.

 

[Chris M]

There was a piece in Modern Railways some years back where they had steel hawsers to drag stuff up embankments. They attached it to the railway tracks then they sat a loco by the attachment to stop lateral movement. There were pulleys to give advantage. The pulling was done with 1 or more locos. Think they could use this to make wagons upright by passing the cable over the wagon and attach it to the chassis.
Someone here will remember this and fill in my hazy memory.

I don't remember the incident you are talking about, but I don't think doing something similar in this situation would be possible. This is because it wasn't an embankment but a bridge (i.e. a vertical drop not a slope) that was significantly damaged by the accident which also basically destroyed the tracks you would need to anchor to. There is also no guarantee the bridge would have been able to take the loading even if it hadn't been damaged.

 

[Hans]

Taken from a post on Cumbria Road Watch

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

View attachment 123743

Taken from a post on Cumbria Road Watch

Of course it takes a lot of preparation and logistics to get the crane setup to lift and then the lifts will be quite speedy relatively

 

[_toommm_]

Last three wagons removed today, with the expectation of the line reopening early December:

https://twitter.com/networkraillc/status/1591827089656844290?s=46&t=zxXo5iNxMWk6BtOR1aVB8w

LATEST PHOTOS

️The last 3 derailed wagons in Carlisle have been rescued

Off they go by lorry to @raibgovuk inspectors

‍♂️Our engineers can now start fixing the track️

Aim is to have trains running by early December

‼️Please check @nationalrailenq @northernassist

 

[EveningStar]

I don't remember the incident you are talking about, but I don't think doing something similar in this situation would be possible. This is because it wasn't an embankment but a bridge (i.e. a vertical drop not a slope) that was significantly damaged by the accident which also basically destroyed the tracks you would need to anchor to. There is also no guarantee the bridge would have been able to take the loading even if it hadn't been damaged.

Couple of incidents in the mid-1970s.

One was on GWML near Reading. Class 31 overran exit from a loop and ended up, via a catch point, embedded down a soft embankment. Location was no good for cranes (think the class 66 at Loch Trieg), so recovery was by using steel cables developed for pulling North Sea pipelines ashore. Two class 47 to pull the class 31 up a temporary ramp, with lateral stay cables clamped to the adjacent main lines, needing another four class 47 parked to prevent this lateral load pulling the rail into distortion. Can remember the numbers. Struck me as a lot of bother to recover a class 31, as pushing it further down the bank would solve all problems ...

Another was in South Wales, 37143 if I recall. Again, equipment developed to haul North Sea pipelines was used to pull the derailed loco up a temporary ramp. If I remember correctly, locos providing power (there was no lateral restraint as 37143 was already on its side) were class 47s and 'Falcon'.

Both incidents used the embankment, so different from this recovery.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Kelbus winches. A lot of breakdown crews had them although by the mid 1980’s they were becoming rarer. The last time the team at the Oak used them in anger was on the Central Wales DMU incident, where one car was recovered but the one right in the river was a (specially built) crane job.

Finsbury Park used their winches a few times at Hertford North alone, when stuff used to go beyond the bay platform stops and down the bank. They had theirs until their breakdown gang disbanded in 1983.

You really need a decent amount space to turn any overturned vehicle to put it on a prepared slope, before you even thought about where you would spin, winch or lift it from, so this gig at Carlisle, with it’s restricted space, looked like a road crane recovery from the off.

 

[HSTEd]

It would be interesting to see the cost analysis for a massive increase in number of hotbox detectors or similar trackside equipment compared to simply paying for the fitment of ECP braking to the entire train fleet

The latter would not only detect that a wheel was slipping but would also have informed the driver about the handbrake being applied and potentially even allowed it to be released from the cab

 

[Ken H]

Kelbus winches. A lot of breakdown crews had them although by the mid 1980’s they were becoming rarer. The last time the team at the Oak used them in anger was on the Central Wales DMU incident, where one car was recovered but the one right in the river was a (specially built) crane job.

Finsbury Park used their winches a few times at Hertford North alone, when stuff used to go beyond the bay platform stops and down the bank. They had theirs until their breakdown gang disbanded in 1983.

You really need a decent amount space to turn any overturned vehicle to put it on a prepared slope, before you even thought about where you would spin, winch or lift it from, so this gig at Carlisle, with it’s restricted space, looked like a road crane recovery from the off.

Kelbus. Thanks. memory duly jogged.

 

[trebor79]

The latter would not only detect that a wheel was slipping but would also have informed the driver about the handbrake being applied and potentially even allowed it to be released from the cab

Already stated up thread that this incident was definitely not due to a handbrake being left applied.

 

[HSTEd]

Already stated up thread that this incident was definitely not due to a handbrake being left applied.

Sorry I'm arriving rather late to this thread, so is their a theory about how this happened?

 

[Chris M]

Already stated up thread that this incident was definitely not due to a handbrake being left applied.

This is true, but the goal of fitting ECP breaking would be to prevent multiple types of incident, including ones resulting from handbrakes being left on, not just the specific circumstances that applied at Carlisle.

Sorry I'm arriving rather late to this thread, so is their a theory about how this happened?

While there are obviously many theories, there is no reliable information in the public domain regarding the cause. We may need to wait for the RAIB report to find that out.

 

[AndrewE]

It would be interesting to see the cost analysis for a massive increase in number of hotbox detectors or similar trackside equipment compared to simply paying for the fitment of ECP braking to the entire train fleet

The latter would not only detect that a wheel was slipping but would also have informed the driver about the handbrake being applied and potentially even allowed it to be released from the cab

but all of this is post-hoc / after-the-event stuff.
See post #268.

 

[HSTEd]

but all of this is post-hoc / after-the-event stuff.
See post #268.

On the other hand, procedural controls (ie. controls relying on human staff to do checks etc) have repeatedly been shown to be suboptimal.

Perform the checks enough time and eventually human fallability will lead to a problem - which is why, in the nuclear industry at least, procedural controls are the least preferred method of control.

 

[zwk500]

It would be interesting to see the cost analysis for a massive increase in number of hotbox detectors or similar trackside equipment compared to simply paying for the fitment of ECP braking to the entire train fleet

The latter would not only detect that a wheel was slipping but would also have informed the driver about the handbrake being applied and potentially even allowed it to be released from the cab

The economics of this would be dependent on traffic density. E.g. fitting ECP brakes to Container wagons that spend much of their time on the WCML is likely to be more expensive/worse value than more regular Axlebox checks on the WCML given the density of traffic, but for wagons that spend much of their time on secondary lines like the S&C then ECP brakes are likely to be more cost-effective as there are so few trains for a HABD to check.

According to this article from 2017: https://smart-union.org/editorial-rail-safetys-sake-ecp-brake-technology-must/ the cost is reasonable:

The modest cost of installing ECP brakes, about $3,000 per car on a new DOT 117 tank car that costs $144,000 to build, and about $60,000 per locomotive,

This is for the US, who have more room to play with on their wagons and more wagons to get economies of scale across as well as experience with ECP brakes, but it suggests you could fit a fair number of wagons for the price of a HABD.

 

[Killingworth]

Northern have been advised not reopening until 7th December, estimate, as steel reinforcing needed for bridge.

 

[Carlisle]

Northern have been advised not reopening until 7th December, estimate, as steel reinforcing needed for bridge.

Thanks for the information, can’t help thinking if this was one of our primary mainlines they’d have found ways of reopening it far quicker .

 

[Ken H]

Whats happening about reinstating the cement flow? Will new wagons be needed, where will they come from. Has the flow been maintained during the closure. what route? how did they get paths over Shap?

Who pays NR for the clear up and reinstatement? I assume an insurer will pick up the tab. I imagine the replacement buses have to be paid for by someone.

What about other freight flows. The timber from Hellifield and the considerable amount of NR traffic. How has that been handled?

 

[Elecman]

Thanks for the information, can’t help thinking if this was one of our primary mainlines they’d have found ways of reopening it far quicker .

Rubbish !!

 

[Chris M]

Who pays NR for the clear up and reinstatement? I assume an insurer will pick up the tab. I imagine the replacement buses have to be paid for by someone.

AIUI NR pays for the clear up and reinstatement, but will be able to claim some of that back from the train operator if the train is determined to be at fault (the train operator will then likely claim some or all of that back from the wagon owner, who will claim some or all of that back from the wagon maintainer).
The rail replacement buses and compensation to passengers will I think be paid for by the TOC whose services are being replaced, but this will be claimed from Network Rail as it is an infrastructure fault that means they can't run trains. Network Rail will then pass at least some of those costs onto the freight train operator, who will pass it on in turn as above.
Ultimately most of the costs will be picked up by one or more insurance companies, who will adjust their client's premiums accordingly. However, the big exception to this is the salaries of the staff in every organisation whose job it is to move all the money around.

 

[Carlisle]

Rubbish !!

You may be right, some seem to agree others don’t,

 

[Chris M]

Thanks for the information, can’t help thinking if this was one of our primary mainlines they’d have found ways of reopening it far quicker .

And what options would there be to reopen it quicker?
They can't reopen the line until they've replaced the track
They can't replace the track until they've rebuilt the bridge
Rebuilding the bridge is being done as quickly as it is possible to do safely, but that couldn't begin until all the derailed vehicles had been recovered.
Recovering the vehicles was done quicker than expected once the crane was built.
Building the crane couldn't have been done any quicker than it was - unless you want every bit ground near to a railway to be prepared and maintained to be capable of supporting a giant crane for the one time in a couple of centuries (or longer) when it is needed there.

 

[Ediswan]

Building the crane couldn't have been done any quicker than it was - unless you want every bit ground near to a railway to be prepared and maintained to be capable of supporting a giant crane for the one time in a couple of centuries (or longer) when it is needed there.

A heavy-lift airship (or hybrid) would have the lifting capacity and require no ground preparation. But despite various attempts, nobody has ever brought one of those into commercial service.

 

[Chris M]

So not an option to open this quicker, and wouldn't have been an option to open a mainline quicker either, so the question remains.

 

[Freightmaster]

What about other freight flows. The timber from Hellifield and the considerable amount of NR traffic. How has that been handled?

The handful of freight services which would normally traverse the entire S+C are being diverted via Shap;
other workings, such as gypsum to Kirkby Thore and stone from Arcow, are unaffected.

On the Tyne Valley, the Seaton flask train has been running via Beattock and Berwick;
all other trains have been suspended.




MARK

 

[DelW]

Thanks for the information, can’t help thinking if this was one of our primary mainlines they’d have found ways of reopening it far quicker .

And what options would there be to reopen it quicker?
They can't reopen the line until they've replaced the track
They can't replace the track until they've rebuilt the bridge
Rebuilding the bridge is being done as quickly as it is possible to do safely, but that couldn't begin until all the derailed vehicles had been recovered.
Recovering the vehicles was done quicker than expected once the crane was built.
Building the crane couldn't have been done any quicker than it was - unless you want every bit ground near to a railway to be prepared and maintained to be capable of supporting a giant crane for the one time in a couple of centuries (or longer) when it is needed there.

Not only are those valid points, but also cranes that size can't be magicked up from nowhere. They are few in number, and have their schedules booked up months or even years ahead. It's likely that a lot of work went into rescheduling its other work to make it available for lifting these wagons.

The site has to be prepared to carry 12t axle loads on the access route, and outrigger pad loads up to maybe 250t at the lift site. This has to be got right and properly checked or the consequences can be very serious as numerous YouTube videos demonstrate.

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

Is the aimed reopening of early December still on?

Trying to plan a couple of journeys in early to mid month!

 

[Ken H]

Is the aimed reopening of early December still on?

Trying to plan a couple of journeys in early to mid month!

National Rail say 7th December and are selling tickets for then
I would not bet any money though

 

[SteveHFC]

Yes, 7th December reopening (at 0545) is still the plan (unless there is something that's gone into my work inbox since I left the office on Friday telling me otherwise).

 

[ItsGrimUpNorth]

Network Rail released an update this evening:

Railway line set to reopen after Carlisle freight train derailment

Passengers will once again have direct trains between Carlisle and Newcastle and Carlisle and Skipton from next week after the routes were closed by a major freight train derailment.

www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk