Derailment near Grange Over Sands

[RichardAsh1981]

There are three pipes or hoses coming out on the seaward side, at different levels. Two come through the parapet wall, and one through the sea wall revetment. Presumably that one is the lower one visible in the photo, which goes through below the clay roof layer.

Finally, the void might have been there from the start - built in.

That raises another awkward question: did the collapse only happen because of the pump pipes/hoses at this point?

An obvious suggestion is that a leak in the lowest pump pipe might have been helping to wash sand out - it must have gone somewhere but pretty hard to spot in the bay full of the stuff!

With hindsight, was running the pipe below the clay layer (presumably to minimise pumping costs) an expensive mistake?

Also, if the embankment was built with material containing organics, then it would shrink significantly if the organic content was able to rot down - which would depend on availability of air and water. Provide both and you can get serious shrinkage over time, without any removed material.

A couple of doors up a pond was filled in about 1975 (to ground level), shrinkage has lowered the front garden by about a foot, and caused at least one subsidence insurance claim.

 

[CarrotPie]

https://twitter.com/Guard_Amos/status/1755664874741420239

Quoting this to appease the mods:

Right folks. The hero at
@northernassist
is here again. You'll now find this #guardoftwitter working the 1913 Lancaster-Carlisle service between Lancaster and Barrow. This is due to the usual 156 being replaced with a 195. Those means folk can get home

#notallheroeswearcapes

 

[yorkie]

Quoting this to appease the mods:

Correction: to make the forum accessible to all, including blind people and those without access to Twitter.

 

[mbonwick]

An obvious suggestion is that a leak in the lowest pump pipe might have been helping to wash sand out - it must have gone somewhere but pretty hard to spot in the bay full of the stuff!

With hindsight, was running the pipe below the clay layer (presumably to minimise pumping costs) an expensive mistake?

Running it well buried in the embankment was perfectly sensible at the time it was put in, and the pumps were only needed on the rare occasion - it's protected from all the dynamic forces at rail level.
The lengths to the side in the picture tell a story and I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of hole/leak in it somewhere.

Combine that with a nice scour hole where the pumps discharge on the seaward side and there's a workable theory for where all the material has gone. Wouldn't have taken long with how much the pumps have been run this winter.

Incidentally, reopening has been put back to at least 21st April.

 

[randyrippley]

One thing to think about.... From watching the Morecambe sea wall rock armour since it was installed I reckon it has lost around 10% of its mass in around 30 years, dissolved by sea water.
That's the same local limestone described as quarry waste in the embankment build notes. 10% in 30 years on big rocks. Dissolution will be quicker on the embankment fines. How many years has it been there?

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

195115 did a full Lancaster to Carlisle run on 8th Feb, a picture of it at Lancaster was posted by @Guard_Amos on X. It was a sub for a failed 156, I tracked it on RTT and it made it all the way.

I’m sure someone said this was swapped at Barrow? 195s aren’t cleared past Maryport, unless the sectional appendix has been updated.

actually, there was a second tweet which suggests the 195 didn’t make it to Carlisle:


Tweet from Guard Amos

Guard_Amos

@Guard_Amos
·
Feb 8

There'll be a unit swap at Barrow. Workington crews don't sign CAF stuff

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Running it well buried in the embankment was perfectly sensible at the time it was put in, and the pumps were only needed on the rare occasion - it's protected from all the dynamic forces at rail level.
The lengths to the side in the picture tell a story and I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of hole/leak in it somewhere.

Combine that with a nice scour hole where the pumps discharge on the seaward side and there's a workable theory for where all the material has gone. Wouldn't have taken long with how much the pumps have been run this winter.

Im sure RAIB will have this in their sights and whether there was adequate oversight of the pumping arrangements in determining root cause

Incidentally, reopening has been put back to at least 21st April.

 

[Scooby]

Incidentally, reopening has been put back to at least 21st April.

Oh bloody hell. That's a PITA !

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

One thing to think about.... From watching the Morecambe sea wall rock armour since it was installed I reckon it has lost around 10% of its mass in around 30 years, dissolved by sea water.
That's the same local limestone described as quarry waste in the embankment build notes. 10% in 30 years on big rocks. Dissolution will be quicker on the embankment fines. How many years has it been there?

In this area of Cumbria, is there any reason why granite was not used in the embankment?

 

[furnessvale]

In this area of Cumbria, is there any reason why granite was not used in the embankment?

Seems to be mainly limestone and sandstone in that area.

 

[randyrippley]

In this area of Cumbria, is there any reason why granite was not used in the embankment?

Local stone is mainly limestone - which was heavily quarried for iron and steel making. The "fines" were the small bits of waste stone, too small to be useful otherwise

 

[VideozVideoz]

The salt marsh is mostly covered in grass and does look rather like a meadow at times. Grange seafront is particularly unusual - a promenade with what looks like a field rather than sea next to it.

Go back 30 years and it did used to be sandy, not grassland!

 

[stuving]

Tim Farron (local MP) has got hold of some interesting information. From cumbriacrack:

But Mr Farron said it has emerged that Network Rail had been informed of damage to a water pipe on the line just two days before the derailment.

In the early hours of Wednesday, March 20, an incident was reportedly logged to Network Rail that the tamper – a machine which make the tracks and roadbed more durable – had struck a water pipe on the Furness Line next to Grange Golf Club, he said.

Mr Farron said: “I’m hugely grateful to the Network Rail engineers on the ground who have been working so hard to move the train and fix the sinkhole. I’m glad I was able to visit the site earlier this week and hear more about the work they’ve been doing.

“But I am deeply alarmed to have been shown evidence that an official report showed damage to the track just 53 hours before the train was derailed.

“I am hugely concerned that things could have been much worse – and lives potentially could have even been lost – if the train hadn’t stayed upright, or if the retaining wall hadn’t prevented the train falling down the embankment into the bay.

“That’s why I am seeking answers from Network Rail about this very concerning evidence.”

He has also written to train operator Northern to ask for a rail shuttle service to be put in place between Barrow and Grange, and another running from Arnside to Lancaster.

Some of that is typical MP making a noise stuff - though I doubt NR have the nerve to reply "we are still awaiting official notification of your appointment as replacement for the RAIB; until then we will give all the information we have to them".

 

[randyrippley]

The salt marsh is mostly covered in grass and does look rather like a meadow at times. Grange seafront is particularly unusual - a promenade with what looks like a field rather than sea next to it.

That grass is the best sea wall protection you can get - it holds the beach together and lets the sand grow

 

[yorksrob]

Tim Farron (local MP) has got hold of some interesting information. From cumbriacrack:


Some of that is typical MP making a noise stuff - though I doubt NR have the nerve to reply "we are still awaiting official notification of your appointment as replacement for the RAIB; until then we will give all the information we have to them".

I'm very pleased that Tim Farron is calling for the shuttle services. Again, he seems to have his finger on the pulse as far as passengers are concerned.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Some of that is typical MP making a noise stuff - though I doubt NR have the nerve to reply "we are still awaiting official notification of your appointment as replacement for the RAIB; until then we will give all the information we have to them".

It is odd how whenever a politician says anything some people object but representatives of the railway seem to be able to say anything they want, no matter how ridiculous, and that seems to be fine because they work on the railway.

A day or so after the derailment occurred North West Tonight interviewed someone from Network Rail and asked if the retaining wall wasn't there would the train have ended up in the bay? The reply was, no it would almost certainly have stayed straight. I went up for a nosey last week and had a chat with a few locals, including one who witnessed the derailment, and not a single one believed it wouldn't have ended up in the bay had that wall not been so well built.

 

[ScottGallagher]

I'm very pleased that Tim Farron is calling for the shuttle services. Again, he seems to have his finger on the pulse as far as passengers are concerned.

As MPs go he's one of the better and more proactive ones

 

[Green tractor]

It is odd how whenever a politician says anything some people object but representatives of the railway seem to be able to say anything they want, no matter how ridiculous, and that seems to be fine because they work on the railway.

A day or so after the derailment occurred North West Tonight interviewed someone from Network Rail and asked if the retaining wall wasn't there would the train have ended up in the bay? The reply was, no it would almost certainly have stayed straight. I went up for a nosey last week and had a chat with a few locals, including one who witnessed the derailment, and not a single one believed it wouldn't have ended up in the bay had that wall not been so well built.

The train was probably held on the embankment by the wheel running along the inside of the rail by the embankment (acting in the same way as a check rail over a viaduct.) More than by the retaining wall.

 

[RGM654]

If the story of NR being warned of damage to a pipe is false, they could say so, without prejudice to the RAIB investigation. If it is true, the MP is making a valid point.

 

[Pinus contorta]

That grass is the best sea wall protection you can get - it holds the beach together and lets the sand grow

This I can confirm because the English Nature expert said their models showed that, when I was at a local council meeting about 25 years ago, amongst much clamouring from locals to remove the lot by chemical or mechanical means.

 

[randyrippley]

The train was probably held on the embankment by the wheel running along the inside of the rail by the embankment (acting in the same way as a check rail over a viaduct.) More than by the retaining wall.

If you watch the security cam footage of the derailment you can see the sparks where the front left wing of the train scrapes along the sea wall. The headlights go out, and then there's a new site of illumination where the train is touching the wall. The wall clearly stopped the train going down the bank

 

[edwin_m]

If you watch the security cam footage of the derailment you can see the sparks where the front left wing of the train scrapes along the sea wall. The headlights go out, and then there's a new site of illumination where the train is touching the wall. The wall clearly stopped the train going down the bank

It may be that if the wall hadn't had been there, the derailed wheels might have come into contact with the opposite rail before the train deviated far enough to topple down the bank. It's a bit academic, as knowing the answer to this depends on what the profile of the bank would have been with no wall there.

 

[Green tractor]

If you watch the security cam footage of the derailment you can see the sparks where the front left wing of the train scrapes along the sea wall. The headlights go out, and then there's a new site of illumination where the train is touching the wall. The wall clearly stopped the train going down the bank

Having viewed the train, there isn't much damage to that side of it. Just a few minor scrapes

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

The train was probably held on the embankment by the wheel running along the inside of the rail by the embankment (acting in the same way as a check rail over a viaduct.) More than by the retaining wall.

It may be that if the wall hadn't had been there, the derailed wheels might have come into contact with the opposite rail before the train deviated far enough to topple down the bank. It's a bit academic, as knowing the answer to this depends on what the profile of the bank would have been with no wall there.

I don’t think there’s enough room between the rail and the drop for the rail to have acted as a stopper - by the time the right hand wheel reached the left hand rail, I’m fairly sure it would have been too late as the train would have been down the bank with the right hand wheel in the air above the rail. The CCTV clip linked earlier also showed it jumped up quite a bit, so it looked like it was well above the tracks as it moved sideways. I’m sure this is something that will be addressed in the RAIB report, possibly with some modelling to demonstrate various outcomes.

 

[AndrewRL]

Tim Farron (local MP) has got hold of some interesting information. From cumbriacrack:


Some of that is typical MP making a noise stuff - though I doubt NR have the nerve to reply "we are still awaiting official notification of your appointment as replacement for the RAIB; until then we will give all the information we have to them".

The full report in cumbriacrack goes further than the passage quoted. In particular, Tim says:
“To Network Rail I would like to ask you the following questions:

• How confident are you that there aren’t any more voids under the trackbed, along any other part of the stretch of track along the bay?
• Have you investigated any link between the reported incident item 109 report 6J89 which happened at 1.15am on Wednesday 20th when the ballast tamper had reported it had struck a water pipe, and this incident which happened just 53 hours later?
• Was there any intervention by Network Rail or any of its contractors to address the leak caused by this incident in the intervening period between the strike and the derailment?
• Would you also please clarify whether the water pipe struck by the tamper on Wednesday 20th was or was not one of the pipes across the track next to the sink hole which are used to pump floodwater from the golf club into the bay?"

All good questions, I'd say.

 

[norbitonflyer]

The restriction is beyond Maryport; it does make me worry about whats going to happen when the 156s are no longer serviceable.

This has been puzzling me. In the olden days the coast route was restricted to short frame (57'6" = 17.5metres) dmus - mainly class 108s: indeed the three class 129 parcels units were built specially for the line and, unlike the other parcel units, were short frame. I assumed the long frame 64'6" designs were barred because of greater throwover on bends (the same reason they were not allowed in the Hotel Curve at Kings Cross)

Scroll forward to now, and the 20 metre 150s (about the same length as a 64'6" long-frame 1st generatiuon DMU) are apparently barred, but it seems the even longer 23m 156s (and 153s when Northern had some) are allowed. What has changed?

And where do the (even longer) 195s fit (or not!) into this?

 

[AndrewRL]

Work site on Sunday afternoon, from the saltmarsh side

 

[Llanigraham]

If you watch the security cam footage of the derailment you can see the sparks where the front left wing of the train scrapes along the sea wall. The headlights go out, and then there's a new site of illumination where the train is touching the wall. The wall clearly stopped the train going down the bank

Considering that much of the front of a train at wall level is either plastic or alloy I don't see how that could have produced sparks.

 

[AndrewRL]

The pumps were back in action



The train hit the wall hard enough to send all this masonry down the bank, about 50m after derailing



The train is still waiting to be towed away. I presume the cable ties are to stop damaged parts from fouling the track or the skates - any better information available?

 

[norbitonflyer]

Considering that much of the front of a train at wall level is either plastic or alloy I don't see how that could have produced sparks.

You can get a spark off any metal. (Alloy is just a fancy name for a mixture of different metals)