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Despite the government's announcement, should HS2 be cancelled?

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Starmill

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You would argue against it because it is wrong. Rail's share of transport miles and journeys is small, under 10% so whatever you do with rail won't make that much difference. What matters is decarbonising road transport, so if decarbonisation is the goal then forget rail, you would be better taking a fraction of the cost of HS2 and using it to roll out a decent EV charging network across the UK, which would do far more to cut carbon.
The mode share held by rail is low because the railway has so little capacity.

EVs, by contrast, offer zero capacity increases, as they take up exactly the same amount of space in car parks and on highways.

A combination of reducing overall demand and shift from air to rail, which is unachievable without HS2, will create a large decarbonisation of the system on its own. The other important things to look at will be electric buses, some private EVs for rural transport and a decarbonisation of the electrical energy used to power this (that will be required for all consumers of electricity though, not only transport ones). Finally there will be a need for restrictions on car parking in cities. None of this is achievable without HS2 - we cannot feasibly grow the capacity of our roads and we cannot expect more than a very modest reduction in demand. People still need to travel for lots of reasons to support the modern world.
 
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Bald Rick

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You would argue against it because it is wrong. Rail's share of transport miles and journeys is small, under 10% so whatever you do with rail won't make that much difference. What matters is decarbonising road transport, so if decarbonisation is the goal then forget rail, you would be better taking a fraction of the cost of HS2 and using it to roll out a decent EV charging network across the UK, which would do far more to cut carbon.

That’s partly right, but partly not.

one way to decarbonise road transport is to switch it to more efficient means, such as electric rail transport. This is particularly the case for freight. Fortunately HS2 releases a lot of capacity in the WCML for freight, which can be electrically hauled, and thus removing many diesel HGVs from the M1, M40, A34 and A14.

Also it is reasonable to assume that HS2 will take a further big chunk of the London - Scotland air market, following the similar success of the WCML upgrade. This could reduce the number of flights in that market by around 30% (in comparison, the WCML upgrade reduced the flights on the London - Manchester routes by 70%), and that is another decent carbon saving.
 

AlbertBeale

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The mode share held by rail is low because the railway has so little capacity.

EVs, by contrast, offer zero capacity increases, as they take up exactly the same amount of space in car parks and on highways.

I agree with you that EV private cars are a red herring, and not only in capacity terms, but in environmental terms too. Being rid of most private cars of any sort is essential in my view.
 

Kingston Dan

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You would argue against it because it is wrong. Rail's share of transport miles and journeys is small, under 10% so whatever you do with rail won't make that much difference. What matters is decarbonising road transport, so if decarbonisation is the goal then forget rail, you would be better taking a fraction of the cost of HS2 and using it to roll out a decent EV charging network across the UK, which would do far more to cut carbon.
Except replacing one million (out of 40 in the UK) ICE cars produces as much carbon as the entire construction of the HS2 network. Decarbonising and road transport are almost mutually exclusive.
 

tomuk

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That’s partly right, but partly not.

one way to decarbonise road transport is to switch it to more efficient means, such as electric rail transport. This is particularly the case for freight. Fortunately HS2 releases a lot of capacity in the WCML for freight, which can be electrically hauled, and thus removing many diesel HGVs from the M1, M40, A34 and A14.

Also it is reasonable to assume that HS2 will take a further big chunk of the London - Scotland air market, following the similar success of the WCML upgrade. This could reduce the number of flights in that market by around 30% (in comparison, the WCML upgrade reduced the flights on the London - Manchester routes by 70%), and that is another decent carbon saving.
Reducing domestic flights isn't a decent saving it contributes only 1.2% of transport emissions which are 27% of total UK emissions so 0.324%. Spending few billion pounds on free electric vans would give greater benefit.
 

Bantamzen

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I accept that HS2 might reduce overall carbon emissions somewhere down the line. The point is that even optimistic scenarios put that decades away. Meanwhile, in ecological terms, it's part of the problem now - and the situation is critical.
And herein is the problem with the approach of some environmentalists, wanting not to focus on big ticket, viable, long term solutions but instead search frantically for some magic bullet that will save the world tomorrow. But there isn't one, as I have been banging on in various threads relating to environmental issues. Man made climate change has been in the making for thousands of years, even the Industrial Age impact is now several hundred years in the making. So all of this isn't going to be reversed in a few years or even decades.

So instead of flailing around panicking & gluing ourselves to roads, we as a society need to help drive long term solutions that not only will work to reduce our impact (it will never be zero BTW), but that will work in our society. This is important because if it negatively impacts people, then people will always push back. HS2 is one such project, and in my opinion should have already been at least partly built & be operational, and delivering it's benefits. Sadly it isn't & I'm sorry to say that among others the environmental lobby has had a hand in that. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to pressure decision makers into taking measures to affect meaningful change for the better, but honestly increasingly the environmental lobby (or at least some of it) seems to have moved increasingly from activists concerned by man made climate change to a bunch of NIMBYs & publicity seeking social media content makers.
 

Bald Rick

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So instead of flailing around panicking & gluing ourselves to roads, we as a society need to help drive long term solutions that not only will work to reduce our impact (it will never be zero BTW), but that will work in our society. This is important because if it negatively impacts people, then people will always push back. HS2 is one such project, and in my opinion should have already been at least partly built & be operational, and delivering its benefits. Sadly it isn't & I'm sorry to say that among others the environmental lobby has had a hand in that. There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to pressure decision makers into taking measures to affect meaningful change for the better, but honestly increasingly the environmental lobby (or at least some of it) seems to have moved increasingly from activists concerned by man made climate change to a bunch of NIMBYs & publicity seeking social media content makers.

As a long term committed environmentalist, I whole heartedly agree.
 

Glenn1969

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There's supposedly going to be three tracking between Leeds - York.

Because the capacity benefits aren't released as they would've been with a proper eastern leg. And the Marsden - Manchester route will not be a high speed line.

The comment was saying you were using the rhetoric the right wing, oil lobby think tanks also use (like the IEA). And you were.
There are major capacity constraints at Leeds and Sheffield stations. Without new build NPR and HS2B East how are these meant to be addressed ?
 

HSTEd

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There are major capacity constraints at Leeds and Sheffield stations. Without new build NPR and HS2B East how are these meant to be addressed ?

HS2B East does not do anything for Sheffield capacity, the trains will arrive the same way they do now, having crawled from Chesterfield.

And if you have to build a Leeds station I don't think it much matters if the trains came via Marsden or via Nottingham
 
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The Ham

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You would argue against it because it is wrong. Rail's share of transport miles and journeys is small, under 10% so whatever you do with rail won't make that much difference. What matters is decarbonising road transport, so if decarbonisation is the goal then forget rail, you would be better taking a fraction of the cost of HS2 and using it to roll out a decent EV charging network across the UK, which would do far more to cut carbon.

It isn't a case of either/or we need to do both.

Whilst rail is fairly small in terms of current route miles, it does have scope to reduce carbon emissions more than just switching to EV. That's because the current per person per km emissions from EV's are comparable to the average (which includes a fair amount of diesel use) per person per km from rail travel.

It should also be noted that by encouraging rail use we could also are more walking/cycling/bus travel if it makes the justification for car ownership harder. This is especially true given the increase of WFH.

If you don't need a car to get to work every day, you can more easily visit friends/family by other modes, your shopping is delivered, and so on, then some may then consider if they actually need a car (or at least reduce the number of cars that they have in their household).

Yes to really make inroads you need to have a lot of stuff working together (better rail, better buses, improved cycle facilities, high fule costs, etc.) however you can't just rule out one element as the mileage undertaken by that mode is low.

Reducing domestic flights isn't a decent saving it contributes only 1.2% of transport emissions which are 27% of total UK emissions so 0.324%. Spending few billion pounds on free electric vans would give greater benefit.

Electrification of internal flights had been started as able to save 2.7 million tonnes of carbon and London/Scotland (mainland) flights are 40% of all flights and the UK's total emissions are 405.5 million tonnes, if we could remove London/Scotland flights it would cut 0.27% of our total carbon emissions (which is likely to be an understatement as electric flights are likely to require more energy than rail).

HOWEVER, as we cut more and more emissions from other sectors that percentage is going to increase. For example if we manage to cut our current emissions to 100 million tonnes then it becomes a saving of just over 1%. Given that we're targeting net zero by 2050 that may not be all that far away.

It's also worth noting that (other than actually building a railway line) it's not all that difficult to get people to switch if it gets faster and/or cheaper than flying (ideally both). If we could just remove London/Scotland flights by building HS2 we'd only need 6 years of no such flights and no other modal shift to get to carbon neutrality (obviously that's an extreme example, but does highlight just how fast the carbon costs could be offset if there was a real desire to do so).
 

tomuk

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Electrification of internal flights had been started as able to save 2.7 million tonnes of carbon and London/Scotland (mainland) flights are 40% of all flights and the UK's total emissions are 405.5 million tonnes, if we could remove London/Scotland flights it would cut 0.27% of our total carbon emissions (which is likely to be an understatement as electric flights are likely to require more energy than rail).

HOWEVER, as we cut more and more emissions from other sectors that percentage is going to increase. For example if we manage to cut our current emissions to 100 million tonnes then it becomes a saving of just over 1%. Given that we're targeting net zero by 2050 that may not be all that far away.

It's also worth noting that (other than actually building a railway line) it's not all that difficult to get people to switch if it gets faster and/or cheaper than flying (ideally both). If we could just remove London/Scotland flights by building HS2 we'd only need 6 years of no such flights and no other modal shift to get to carbon neutrality (obviously that's an extreme example, but does highlight just how fast the carbon costs could be offset if there was a real desire to do so).
But that is still just a tiny drop in the ocean, an irrelevance. The reduction in travel caused by covid reduced UK emissions by 19% that is 70-100 times more of an improvement than getting modal shift of flights to HS2. Just as the 'greens' are wrong to argue against HS2 on 'embedded' carbon grounds supporters of HS2 are equally as bad to claim reducing domestic flights as significant benefit of HS2.

The four big emitters (only 27% of overall emissions) in transport are Cars & Taxis, International Air, HGVs, and Vans it is the decarbonisation of those, and electricity generation and heating, not HS2 or the railways.
 

Noddy

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At what point in time do we reckon the Simon Jenkins, the Ester McVeys, the Green Party et al will finally realise that it’s too late to cancel and move on to some other pet hate so the public are no longer inflicted with their drivel? I guess once we start seeing slab track or masts in places that might happen-any ideas when they may start?
 

Bald Rick

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I guess once we start seeing slab track or masts in places that might happen-any ideas when they may start?

Couple of years yet.

They won’t stop snivelling even when trains are actually running.
 

yorksrob

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Complete the current section to Birmingham.

Then nothing more unless the rest of the current network is guaranteed.

No more HS2 without the existing railway, including Whitby, S&C, Marshlink and all the rest etc. I want to see Prime Minister in the house guaranteeing "no cuts to the existing rail network" in return for the rest of HS2.
 

Noddy

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Couple of years yet.

They won’t stop snivelling even when trains are actually running.

Really only a couple of years? At least then it will stop being such an abstract thing!

Yeah they will probably still be moaning but hopefully the majority can see they’re just idiots!
 

Xavi

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Complete the current section to Birmingham.

Then nothing more unless the rest of the current network is guaranteed.

No more HS2 without the existing railway, including Whitby, S&C, Marshlink and all the rest etc. I want to see Prime Minister in the house guaranteeing "no cuts to the existing rail network" in return for the rest of HS2.
Agreed, it would be good to hear, however, probably the best we can hope for is the small print in future autumn statement / budget.

Yesterday, the DfT Resource Department Expenditure Limit was maintained at £2bn (very similar to the rail revenue gap) above pre-Covid for 2023/24, reducing by £1bn a year later. Time for fare reform to grow revenue!

Capital investment is a separate budget.
 

yorksrob

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Agreed, it would be good to hear, however, probably the best we can hope for is the small print in future autumn statement / budget.

Yesterday, the DfT Resource Department Expenditure Limit was maintained at £2bn (very similar to the rail revenue gap) above pre-Covid for 2023/24, reducing by £1bn a year later. Time for fare reform to grow revenue!

Capital investment is a separate budget.

Yes, revenue spend is the poor relation and it's importance is never acknowledged.
 

The Planner

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Really only a couple of years? At least then it will stop being such an abstract thing!

Yeah they will probably still be moaning but hopefully the majority can see they’re just idiots!
HS2 are ploughing on getting the structures built, once you have got most of that out the way you effectively have a haul road along the length of the route.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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At what point in time do we reckon the Simon Jenkins, the Ester McVeys, the Green Party et al will finally realise that it’s too late to cancel and move on to some other pet hate so the public are no longer inflicted with their drivel? I guess once we start seeing slab track or masts in places that might happen-any ideas when they may start?
The politicos have several opportunities to lobby for cancellation/truncation.
Assuming Hunt's budget gets past the vote in parliament, there's the Phase 2b (Crewe-Manchester) Bill which has just started its passage through the committee stage (3rd reading).
Esther McVey will have plenty of opportunity to shout it down or press for major changes.
She's unlikely to succeed (but will take credit from her Tatton constituents for fighting it).
Neighbouring MP Graham Brady (who scotched the Golborne link) will be on her side.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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HS2 are ploughing on getting the structures built, once you have got most of that out the way you effectively have a haul road along the length of the route.
They getting on with it at pace which makes it bizarre that they still forecast potentially another decade before it opens to traffic.
 

Xavi

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They getting on with it at pace which makes it bizarre that they still forecast potentially another decade before it opens to traffic.
Some of the civils contracts will be completed considerably before opening, however, there will be delays somewhere preventing the rail systems installation. from commencing. I sense there’s more contingency in the program than there was for Crossrail.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Some of the civils contracts will be completed considerably before opening, however, there will be delays somewhere preventing the rail systems installation. from commencing. I sense there’s more contingency in the program than there was for Crossrail.
By 2025 base civils will be done then should be a couple of years for railway systems and 6mths for testing - Dec 2027 timetable change!!
 

Mikey C

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The politicos have several opportunities to lobby for cancellation/truncation.
Assuming Hunt's budget gets past the vote in parliament, there's the Phase 2b (Crewe-Manchester) Bill which has just started its passage through the committee stage (3rd reading).
Esther McVey will have plenty of opportunity to shout it down or press for major changes.
She's unlikely to succeed (but will take credit from her Tatton constituents for fighting it).
Neighbouring MP Graham Brady (who scotched the Golborne link) will be on her side.
But Labour and the Lib Dems will support 2b anyway, so it won't matter if 20 or 50 Tories rebel.

This isn't some minor technicality on which opposition parties can rebel to embarrass a government, if HS2 from Crewe to Manchester was cancelled because Labour didn't support it, they'd look ridiculous at the next election in NW seats.
 

The Ham

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But that is still just a tiny drop in the ocean, an irrelevance. The reduction in travel caused by covid reduced UK emissions by 19% that is 70-100 times more of an improvement than getting modal shift of flights to HS2. Just as the 'greens' are wrong to argue against HS2 on 'embedded' carbon grounds supporters of HS2 are equally as bad to claim reducing domestic flights as significant benefit of HS2.

The four big emitters (only 27% of overall emissions) in transport are Cars & Taxis, International Air, HGVs, and Vans it is the decarbonisation of those, and electricity generation and heating, not HS2 or the railways.

Yes selling HS2 only because of domestic aviation is missing the point. The point I was making was that the embedded emission from the construction of HS2 could be wiped out within a decade of it only improved our carbon emissions from domestic aviation between London and Scotland.

Whilst HS2 does impact on domestic aviation, it will also have some impact of car use and HGV use.

It does so by increasing capacity in the rail network, which creates space for more passengers and in turn means that car usage could be reduced. By how much, that depends on other policies, however it gives some the option to leave the car behind.

Likewise by freeing up capacity of the WCML there's the potential for more freight to move by rail and so reduces the need for HGV movements.

Even National Highways is talking about options to improve the use of rail between Southampton and the Midlands (M3/A34 corridor) so we can reduce our emissions.

Link to document:

That's likely to require more investment in rail to create the capacity needed. Whilst that may not need HS2, it does require the government to be serious about rail as an option. The cutting of HS2 would make a lot question is that was the case.

It comes down to we need to be doing lots of small things to risk a big reduction in emissions, as the government has set us on the target of reaching net zero by 2050. As such we can't only deal with swapping to EV's as the emissions from them aren't low enough to get us close enough, especially given that there's likely to still be ICE cars on the roads.

Whilst cars aren't going to go away, there needs to be a switch in thinking from "I'll use my car" almost regardless of the travel to "can I walk, if not can I cycle, if not can I use public transport, if not then I'll use a car" the only way we can get people to use rail or other public transport is to increase the capacity and linked to that use that extra capacity to increase the frequency.

It's why HS2 needs to be part of other ongoing investment in the existing rail network (including East West Rail, reopening of Portishead, Crossrail 2, and the many other smaller enhancements which aren't exciting but are important to improve rail services and capacity) along with improvements to walking and cycling facilities and improvements to other public transport.

To get the sorts of modal shift needed there's also going to be a need to make it less attractive to drive (such as the introduction of VED to EV's) as well.

Arguably having more cars than income tax payers shows us that we've probably got too many cars. This is shown up by the fact that between 1995 and 2019 oil use equivalent for road based transport is virtually unchanged, even though vehicles are noticeably more efficient than they were then.

Now unless we can provide options for most travel without using a car then people will continue to own a car. When they own a car they use it, even if they would have otherwise used another mode (as it's just as suitable).

However one of the reasons people don't cycle is because there's too many cars. We would need levels of cycling to increase by 20% just to get to 1/4 of the level of cycling we saw in the 1950's. That 20% increase would be huge, and we'd still be way way behind where we used to be.

20 years ago we could talk about "why do x it's only going to be a small change", now, because too little was done 20 years ago, we need to think "if we try to achieve these 1,000 small cuts in emissions it gives us a chance of not quite doing as well as we'd have liked and to still reach out goal".

It's one of the reasons that I'm not convinced that carbon capture and storage to create blue hydrogen to allow us to increase the amount of hydrogen we use is that great an idea, especially if that is for things (such as domestic flights) where we could use a lower energy option - that being rail. Again there's a place for hydrogen, but I'm not sure significant increases in it's use is that great an idea, given the energy losses in its supply chain and use
 

HSTEd

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Whether or not I agree with the specifics of the scheme, its either accept this or spend at least another decade arguing about another route.

Support the scheme or get nothing at all, which is annoying.

If only doing anything didn't take 20 years!
 

stuu

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Whilst cars aren't going to go away, there needs to be a switch in thinking from "I'll use my car" almost regardless of the travel to "can I walk, if not can I cycle, if not can I use public transport, if not then I'll use a car" the only way we can get people to use rail or other public transport is to increase the capacity and linked to that use that extra capacity to increase the frequency.
This is wildly off topic, but one of the biggest things we need to do is to stop building enormous car-based housing estates. Even though they pay lip-service to non-motorised users, they still are. We need to encourage people to live in higher density blocks, so services like shops are much closer. This doesn't have to mean the high rises of the 1960s, just 4-6 storey blocks like in Paris or Barcelona. And they need less energy to run and service with deliveries etc

It's the daily life and the local journeys that have the biggest impact. Which is why the obsession with aviation is so flawed
 

HSTEd

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This is wildly off topic, but one of the biggest things we need to do is to stop building enormous car-based housing estates. Even though they pay lip-service to non-motorised users, they still are. We need to encourage people to live in higher density blocks, so services like shops are much closer. This doesn't have to mean the high rises of the 1960s, just 4-6 storey blocks like in Paris or Barcelona. And they need less energy to run and service with deliveries etc
In a post coronavirus world I think trying to force people to live in blocks of flats, especially ones as cramped as British ones are, is an exercise in futility.
Noone will want to live in a rabbit hutch that they might end up locked inside for months at zero notice.

People will want more space, especially with the trend towards "home working".
I'm afraid we just have to accept that low density suburbia is the way things will be

It's the daily life and the local journeys that have the biggest impact. Which is why the obsession with aviation is so flawed

If you run decarbonisation scenarios (which I do as part of my research role), you see that because of the chained inefficiencies in synthetic aviation fuel manufacture, that in a decarbonised system aviation will consume as much primary energy as all ground transport.

Ground transport decarbonisation will dramatically cut "final energy" use, but it will skyrocket in aviation. Running electrolysis for synthetic fuels for current UK aviation fuel sales will consume as much electricity as is provided by our entire current electricity system.
 

stuu

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In a post coronavirus world I think trying to force people to live in blocks of flats, especially ones as cramped as British ones are, is an exercise in futility.
Noone will want to live in a rabbit hutch that they might end up locked inside for months at zero notice.
No, but that's because we build them so badly. We don't have to. 500m from where I'm sitting, there is a four storey block of flats with huge covered balconies the size of a decent room. It can be done
 
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The Ham

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It's the daily life and the local journeys that have the biggest impact. Which is why the obsession with aviation is so flawed

I fully agree that we need to deal with the daily life elements, however we can't just ignore other bits because they are small.

If you look at the majority of my posts I talk about cars and how we need to reduce our use of them. Primarily by walking, cycling and public transport.

HS2 has a part to play in that, in that we need to cater for the majority of trips which people will make for them to give up on the idea of personal car ownership (even just give up on the ideal of 2+ car ownership would be a huge step forwards), that means making sure that (as an example) XC services have more capacity on them by switching the longer distance passengers to HS2 (remembering that the original HS2 plan would have cut the Southampton to Newcastle fastest journey times by at least an hour and offering a more frequent service at that speed). By doing so it would allow more passengers to use XC services between adjoining stops for the very day to day travel we need to improve.

Yes XC need longer trains, however they need them as well as the extra capacity released by building HS2.

HS2 was based on rail growth of 2.5% per year, for several years from 2009 onwards growth was higher than this across the whole network. Leading to, for example, London/West Midlands rail use growing from a baseline of 100 in 2009 to 180 in 2019, when it "should" have only grown to 128 if the 2.5% growth was correct.

Even though growth rates were lower in the latter years, 2.5% growth on 128 passengers is an extra 3 passengers, to grow an extra 3 passengers when you've got 180 of them growth only needs to be 1.78%.

It's why ALL rail investment is needed, it's why the £30bn of spending by Network Rail in the 10 years to 2019 is important. It could never be like some of the European networks where it was HS rail at the expense of local rail and of our every for like that then I'd have argued strongly for it not to be like that. However it hasn't been, much as many have said that it would be. The last few years, due to COVID, have depressed the investment due to keeping services running, however there's still investment in TPU, East West Rail, Portishead, etc.

The point I was highlighting with regards to HS2 was that if it was the catalyst for a policy which was similar to that which France has brought in on internal flights, the concern which some have over embedded carbon could be dealt with swiftly - even though it's a small amount of our overall carbon emissions.

However, it should also be remembered that once you offer a viable alternative option people do use it. I have a friend who loves flying, however they very much prefer using Eurostar to get to France.

Yes HS2 could fix 40% of domestic flights, however it's about rail capacity first and foremost. Rail capacity for travel long distances, but also to free up capacity too run more local services too and to carry more freight.

It could also mean they the cost of carrying each passenger falls, as there's far more passengers, which puts the finances of the railways in a better position.

By shortening journey times you need fewer resources to run the same services. Running 3tph London/Manchester using 11 coach 390's requires 165 coaches and 15 drivers at any given time (not allowing for spares), HS2 can do it with 16 coach trains at 3tph and only need 144 coaches and 9 drivers. As such the cost per train is less, even though the trains can carry nearly double the number of passengers (1,050 seats would be 1.8 times the number of seats of an 11 coach 390).

It's why the maths for making the 390's 12 coach units never really stacked up, as you'd need 180 coaches compared to HS2's 144 and you'd still be looking at no more than 2/3 of the capacity of a HS2 train.

With that sort of uplift in capacity but still with a reduction in operating costs the financial situation of the railways would be much healthier.

As of the existing trains costs £1 million per day, even with higher costs per coach and per driver for HS2 services you could expect those costs to fall, for argument sake let's say to £0.95 million (a 5% fall even though there's 13% fewer coaches and 40% fewer drivers). Over an 15 hour day with 11 coach 390's providing 1,767 seats an hour in each direction that's a cost of £18.86 per seat. Now with HS2 with train with 1,000 seats per train that cost falls to £10.56 per seat. (The actual costs don't really matter, as they'd still show the same sort of fall, in that if the original costs were £100 per seat the HS2 costs would be £56 per seat).

That gives the TOC more scope to offer cheaper tickets and still cover their costs, by having cheaper tickets it atracts more people to use the trains, and in turn they are less likely to drive for that trip. If that trip is their main justification for owning a car, then they are less likely to own a car, and if they don't own a car they are more likely to walk/cycle local journeys.

Likewise, if there's few domestic flights, the cost of a transfer flight increases, which means it's more expensive for someone not in London to travel internationally if there isn't a direct flight from their nearby airports. That in turn could reduce long haul flights (probably not by much, but by a little), with middle distance flights (where there's enough local demand to fly to a destination - for example people may reduce their travel to South or Central America instead heading to North Africa) taking up the slack.

Now with fewer non London passengers some long haul flights could become less viable, meaning that there's more need to hop to elsewhere in Europe to get the range of designations. However if other places are also reducing domestic flights or other short distance flights, (especially with more people choosing not to fly or not to fly as much) it could lead to other hub airports also loosing some of their destinations.

As such whilst domestic flights are a small amount of all aviation emissions their existence could encourage international flights, which otherwise wouldn't happen without them. Therefore the total aviation emissions lost by cutting London/Scotland flights could actually be higher than just that created by the flights themselves and AIDS up in reducing our emissions from international flights as well. This is because those with the largest carbon emissions are often frequent flyers (1% of the UK population takes 20% of international flights).

The other thing to note, is that rarely are people traveling from airport to airport. Now given that rail allows travel from much closer to home to much closer to where they are going to it is likely that the associated travel emissions for rail are lower.

Take for example someone living in Winchester and going to Manchester, if they go by train they can join at Winchester Station and travel to the city centre in Manchester. If they are flying they would have to travel to Southampton or one of the London airports (which could even be Luton or Stansted) and then from Manchester Airport to the city centre, which could add a fair amount of carbon emissions depending on how they travel. It's not unlikely that such emissions (potentially not in this case, but generally so) could be car based, so the switch from flying to train would likely reduce car emissions as well as aviation emissions.

No, but that's because we build them so badly. We don't have to. 500m from where I'm sitting, there is a four storey block of flats with huge covered balconies the size of a decent room. It can be done

It can be done, you also have to beat in mind a lot of suburban housing has parking and garage space which isn't that much smaller than the footprint of the building.

To highlight this take a look at Minehead, the town is quite a lot larger than the Butlins (easily 5 times the size, if not more). Yet the population of Minehead is 12,000 whilst the capacity of the Butlins is 10,000. Whilst there a lot of 1 or 2 bedrooms with a shower room which increases the capacity significantly, it's also true that it saves a lot of space by not needing to cater for cars on site by just having them all parked in 2 large car parks.
 
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