DfT Feb 25th (2014) meeting on Hull-Selby electrification

[7griffinjack]

A local Hull MP has recently said:

"Minister told me last week that announcement on rail electrification would be made soon but not in budget."

Apparently government are still finalising plans.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

My understanding is that the part taking time is the price and mechanism for handing the constructed infrastructure over to Network Rail.

I can't see Network Rail ceding design authority for the electrification of a major route to anyone.

 

[WatcherZero]

Their not proposing that, its a build and leaseback model, similar to HS1 and that proposed in Scotland but then abandoned.

They want NR to borrow for and build it in return for them taking up a fixed lease. Of course the problem is that leaves NR with the risk if First Hull went bust before they paid off the infrastructure costs.

 

[IanXC]

Tim Iredale (BBC Look North Policital Editor) has just stated that MPs are expecting an announcement tomorrow (Thursday 20th)

 

[PhilipW]

We wait to hear

http://www.kcfm.co.uk/news/local-ne...ication-between-hull-and-selby-will-go-ahead/

... and another article ....


Let's hope this is all for real.

http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/Hook...ion-plan-set/story-20831065-detail/story.html

 

[IanXC]

And there it was!

Secretary of State has approved £2.5m to take the project to GRIP3.

 

[swt_passenger]

And there it was!

Secretary of State has approved £2.5m to take the project to GRIP3.

Updated news article:

In response, Mr McLoughlin said: “I am very pleased to be able to announce today that I can make available the £2.5m to take this project up to GRIP3 and that notification will be going to Network Rail and to colleagues, who I shall be writing to today, saying that I am making the money available.”

The Mail understands the next stage of the feasibility process, known as GRIP3, will build on the work already carried by First Hull Trains and Network Rail. The further study will verify costs and timescales.

Will Dunnett, managing director at First Hull Trains, said: “This will be welcome news for everyone concerned.

“It is exactly what we asked the Secretary of State for when we met him in February.

“The scheme to GRIP 3 will follow over a year of very detailed technical and commercial negotiations led by First Hull Trains, which has moved the programme through two stages of approvals.

http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/Hook...-given-ahead/story-20832366-detail/story.html

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Updated news article:

That takes it to the same state as the rest of the TP electrification plans.
However, unlike TP, it doesn't yet amount to a "go ahead".

 

[snowball]

GRIP 3 is option selection. What sort of decisions would that involve in a case like Selby to Hull?

Presumably some questions would relate to the swing bridge but I imagine they would be quickly answered - it isn't going to be replaced by a fixed bridge, a tunnel or a completely new swing bridge (incidentally the works postponed from last year are starting right now).

There would be the question of whether to include Temple Hirst but again I imagine that would be quickly answered.

Presumably GRIP 3 wouldn't include anything so detailed as locations of masts on plain line.

So what else?

 

[IanXC]

I suspect it would include things like detailed work on bridges - do you replace, track lower or whatever. Plus I suppose there are questions about scope (which have interfaces with wider NR concerns):
-Ferriby platform loop
-where will the depot be - leading to do you wire Botanic Gardens
-the loop from Hessle Junction to the coast line which is used for diversionary purposes
-Selby Canal curve (logically a wider LNE connectivity add on)
-Selby Barlby loops and Potters freight terminal

I suppose there is the option of whether to wire all the platforms at Hull, but given NT and TP havee both said they'd turn some services over to electric that doesn't seem likely.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

GRIP 3 is option selection. What sort of decisions would that involve in a case like Selby to Hull?

Presumably some questions would relate to the swing bridge but I imagine they would be quickly answered - it isn't going to be replaced by a fixed bridge, a tunnel or a completely new swing bridge (incidentally the works postponed from last year are starting right now).

There would be the question of whether to include Temple Hirst but again I imagine that would be quickly answered.

Presumably GRIP 3 wouldn't include anything so detailed as locations of masts on plain line.

So what else?

Clearance work, resignalling/remodelling, route upgrades, maintenance requirements, stabling etc?
I should think the electrification design will be pretty much based on the NW project.
It should also consider the impact on other TOCs services (eg Hull-Goole-Doncaster-Sheffield).

 

[northwichcat]

Some badly worded tweets being posted on Twitter by high profile people regarding Hull electrification, lacking a reference to it being a rail project. One MP posting that she's please Hull will be electrified by the time it becomes UK Capital of Culture.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Wow - commonsense breaking out on UK Railways at long last?

 

[TheKnightWho]

I know this is slightly off-topic, but can anyone explain why FHT go via Selby and Howden and not Goole (it being larger than both combined and a more direct route)?

 

[joeykins82]

I would guess that Goole already has 2tph between Doncaster and Hull so is well served for connections at Doncaster, whereas Selby has far fewer trains.

 

[eastwestdivide]

I know this is slightly off-topic, but can anyone explain why FHT go via Selby and Howden and not Goole (it being larger than both combined and a more direct route)?

Only guessing, but there's not a vast difference in population, and maybe the Selby route was more attractive because Goole already had a decent rail service southwards, whereas until HT appeared, Selby didn't. The latter might have also swung the open access application in their favour - opening up "new" routes.

 

[ianhr]

I think at some time in the past there were serious problems with the Ouse Bridge near Goole. Although both routes involve a swing bridge I think the Goole one was causing more problems.

I would have thought that the Goole route was shorter, but again as has been mentioned Selby probably needed to be compensated for the loss of trains to the south after the ECML was diverted via Hambleton.

Maybe there will be a good case for wiring the Goole line in CP6 now as it will become an 'island' of diesel working when the Selby routes are wired and the Midland Line electrification is extended from Sheffield to Doncaster.

 

[IanXC]

I know this is slightly off-topic, but can anyone explain why FHT go via Selby and Howden and not Goole (it being larger than both combined and a more direct route)?

Without putting Goole down too much, Selby and Howden have a much greater demand for intercity travel. They're more affluent areas, both also having large rural areas who drive to the stations.

Whilst the Goole route is more direct, the journey time isn't that much different given the first stretch of the Selby route is on the ECML and that there are 2 stops rather than 1.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maybe there will be a good case for wiring the Goole line in CP6 now as it will become an 'island' of diesel working when the Selby routes are wired and the Midland Line electrification is extended from Sheffield to Doncaster.

It does look like a logical next step. My concern is that many of the Northern express services which pass through Goole run onto the Yorkshire Coast Line. If this through working were lost these would become at least 2 connections away from vast swaithes of the network. (I'd suggest that a 3rd CrossCountry service north from Birmingham, to Hull via Doncaster would resolve this, and allow the current Doncaster XC to be routed via Leeds as XC have long wanted, but thats getting very, very off topic!).

 

[westv]

Hopefully it won't be too many years before we get the opportunity to complain about delays due to overhead line problems.

 

[Class 170101]

Wow - commonsense breaking out on UK Railways at long last?

Go and stand in the corner and wash your mouth out - common sense on the railway - whats that?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Presumably some questions would relate to the swing bridge but I imagine they would be quickly answered.
There would be the question of whether to include Temple Hirst but again I imagine that would be quickly answered.

Surely Selby to Templehirst is part of the Transpennine scheme already? Better not have another electrification scheme where the bits were done in the 'wrong' order like Bishops Stortford to Shepreth Branch Jn, Royston to Cambridge and Ipswich to Norwich.

As for Selby swing bridge how about Trowse Swing Bridge at Norwich? Its already wired so experience to be gained from there I am sure.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Maybe there will be a good case for wiring the Goole line in CP6 now as it will become an 'island' of diesel working when the Selby routes are wired and the Midland Line electrification is extended from Sheffield to Doncaster.

Would seem logical for diesel services to run between Doncaster and Scarborough via Goole and Hull and run electric services between Sheffield and Hull via Doncaster and Selby. Some re-organisation of services seems likely and sensible.

 

[yorksrob]

I know this is slightly off-topic, but can anyone explain why FHT go via Selby and Howden and not Goole (it being larger than both combined and a more direct route)?

Theres a lot of money in Howden.

 

[IanXC]

Surely Selby to Templehirst is part of the Transpennine scheme already?

Nope. Transpennine don't go that way, and neither does the scheme.

 

[fgwrich]

Hopefully it won't be too many years before we get the opportunity to complain about delays due to overhead line problems.

Too late, as someone already complained about the OHLE problems on the East Coast on the Hull Mail website and claimed that it's a waste of money already. Well, you can't please everyone.

 

[Aictos]

Too late, as someone already complained about the OHLE problems on the East Coast on the Hull Mail website and claimed that it's a waste of money already. Well, you can't please everyone.

Plus it seems the 180s are totally clapped out as they break down so often :roll:

 

[northwichcat]

Plus it seems the 180s are totally clapped out as they break down so often :roll:

The 175s used to have similar problems but Alstom's depot at Chester seems to have found a solution so maybe they could do the same with 180s.

 

[PhilipW]

I was rather surprised at how low key this announcement was. I thought this was untypical for government who rather like to announce such schemes with much fanfare.

OK, I realise that the DfT have just given authority for Network Rail to proceed with the next GRIP Phase, but the point of no return has been passed. With the scheme having the support of all political parties and business groups in the area, there is no way that the scheme will not proceed now. The line is being electrified.

The implications, I think, are quite far reaching and so far have been quite understated. With London services, cross Pennine services and local stopping services to both Leeds and York all now being able to be electric, quite a substantial number of diesel units will be freed up for use elsewhere or sent to the scrapyard.

 

[jimm]

I was rather surprised at how low key this announcement was. I thought this was untypical for government who rather like to announce such schemes with much fanfare.

OK, I realise that the DfT have just given authority for Network Rail to proceed with the next GRIP Phase, but the point of no return has been passed. With the scheme having the support of all political parties and business groups in the area, there is no way that the scheme will not proceed now. The line is being electrified.

The implications, I think, are quite far reaching and so far have been quite understated. With London services, cross Pennine services and local stopping services to both Leeds and York all now being able to be electric, quite a substantial number of diesel units will be freed up for use elsewhere or sent to the scrapyard.

No, the line is not being electrified. Not until the parties involved secure the funding and there is a signed agreement to that effect - which is rather different to saying 'we believe we have a way to fund it'. When that final deal is done, then there will be a big announcement. This is just another step on the road.

There are a good few projects which have got to Grip Stage 3 but no further for the moment, eg reopening Honeybourne to Stratford-upon-Avon.

 

[PhilipW]

No, the line is not being electrified. Not until the parties involved secure the funding and there is a signed agreement to that effect - which is rather different to saying 'we believe we have a way to fund it'. When that final deal is done, then there will be a big announcement. This is just another step on the road.

There are a good few projects which have got to Grip Stage 3 but no further for the moment, eg reopening Honeybourne to Stratford-upon-Avon.

Well technically you may be correct. Legally you may be correct too.

.... but politically, no. Nobody backs out from this now. Everyone has far too much to lose. It will be done.

 

[jimm]

Well technically you may be correct. Legally you may be correct too.

.... but politically, no. Nobody backs out from this now. Everyone has far too much to lose. It will be done.

Oh really? Well just look at what's going on in Scotland right now over the electrification programme there, or in Wales, where the UK and Welsh Assembly governments are now squabbling over who's going to pay to wire the Valley Lines.

 

[ainsworth74]

The 175s used to have similar problems but Alstom's depot at Chester seems to have found a solution so maybe they could do the same with 180s.

Three of the four 180s that HT have are now very reliable, one of them however remains temperamental. It is inaccurate to suggest that the 180s reliability is woeful. That being said it's take far to long for them to get to this stage!