Difference in restrictions between 16 - 25 and Senior Railcards

[Ianno87]

That would make it the year 2001 when you were 14. What was your paid employment in that period of time.

Top marks for the mathematics.

It was indeed a paper round. 3-4 hours every Saturday and Sunday morning, plus weekday mornings too during school holidays.

I could go for weeks at a time without having anything that could be described as a 'lie in'.

My posture, however, has never forgiven me...

 

[Ianno87]

I am not sure of the legal niceties here, so can anyone confirm that a young person of 14 in Britain can be legally said to be an employee in legalistic terminology?

Regardless of the legal technicalities, it still constituted getting my arse out of bed at 6am on freezing winter mornings to lug heavy stuff around to earn money for the things I want in life. At the time, that was Dreamcast games.

I object to the lazy, broad brush assumtions that all millenials are somehow 'self-entitled' and don't know what real hard work is.

 

[TUC]

The differences in policy between the 16-25 and Senior railcards do make sense, at least within the Network Railcard area:

Senior Railcard holders making journeys wholly within the Network Railcard area cannot obtain discount on tickets used to travel before the Off Peak Day Return is valid. This prevents use for commuting to work.

16-25 Railcard holders can get discount led fares at any time subject to the £12 minimum fare. At face value this seems unfair as under 25 year olds can get discounted fares to commute to work in the morning (if the undiscounted fare is more then c£18). However this helps under 25 year olds who probably earn a far lower wage than older workers and who are less likely to be able to afford the upfront price of a season ticket. I can’t see this being changed given that the Government wishes to help younger people with the cost of living.

Although, given the Network Railcars applies to a minority students of the country, I hope that isn't the key driver of policy on this issue.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I am not sure of the legal niceties here, so can anyone confirm that a young person of 14 in Britain can be legally said to be an employee in legalistic terminology?

They are an employee and so have an employer.

Children aged 13 and 14 will likely need to have a work permit from their local education authority (this is subject to local bylaws but I think it's pretty standard).

The hours children under 16 can work is limited.

 

[Darandio]

The hours children under 16 can work is limited.

Is that recent then? Born in August 1980, I left school in May 1996 at the age of 15. I started working 40+ hours a week a few days later.

 

[MikeWh]

Is that recent then? Born in August 1980, I left school in May 1996 at the age of 15. I started working 40+ hours a week a few days later.

Most people born in that Sept-Aug school year would be 16. I doubt there was any resistance to keep the last few 15-year-olds out of employment once the summer term (or exams) had finished.

 

[Joe Paxton]

The law is actually based on the minimum school leaving age rather than specifically being aged 16. I don't think this has changed in recent years, though the requirement in England to either stay in education or do training until age 18 is newer.

GOV.UK - Child employment

Darandio, my reading is that there may have been a legally questionable period up to the last Friday in June, but I dare say that this isn't something people quibble over so long as the person has genuinely finished school.

 

[Hadders]

The

Although, given the Network Railcars applies to a minority students of the country, I hope that isn't the key driver of policy on this issue.

The Network Railcard has nothing to do with it but morning restrictions apply to the Senior Railcard for journeys wholly within the Network Railcard area.

Read my post again and it will make sense.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Network Railcard has nothing to do with it but morning restrictions apply to the Senior Railcard for journeys wholly within the Network Railcard area.

Am I right or not in my understanding of the usage of the Senior Citizen Railcard that railcard discounts are available throughout Britain, but there is a Monday to Friday embargo on the use of them in the morning peak periods for journeys that are wholly within the London and South East Network Railcard areas.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Am I right or not in my understanding of the usage of the Senior Citizen Railcard that railcard discounts are available throughout Britain, but there is a Monday to Friday embargo on the use of them in the morning peak periods for journeys that are wholly within the London and South East Network Railcard areas.

Senior Railcard - When can I use my Railcard?

Time Restrictions:

Your Senior Railcard is NOT valid when travelling between two stations inside London and the South East area during morning peak time.

Morning off-peak services vary by route, so it's a good idea to check before buying your tickets.

Morning peak time restriction does NOT apply on public holidays.

The 'London and the South East area' mentioned above is the same thing as the Network Railcard area. Linking to a PDF map entitled
'Network Railcard Area' from the Senior Railcard website is arguably potentially confusing and could perhaps do with a bot of clarification.

 

[FenMan]

Surely it's just a matter of money so far as the TOCs are concerned?

Surveys tell us that most over 60s are retired/not economically active/in part time work. The revenue leakage caused by Senior Cardholders outside of the Network SE Area purchasing discounted tickets for peak time commutes to work is likely to be minimal and could well be less than the additional revenue generated by this group choosing to purchase tickets for a greater number of non-essential journeys further afield that otherwise would not be affordable.

Abolition of the peak time minimum fare requirement for 16-25 Railcard users would result in a significant loss of revenue that would have to be recovered from somewhere.

As ever, the railway will continue to milk its captive market as hard as it can while offering incentives to people who have a choice over whether or not to use the train.

 

[AM9]

... As ever, the railway will continue to milk its captive market as hard as it can while offering incentives to people who have a choice over whether or not to use the train.

Or more to the point while offering incentives to people who use the trains at times when they aren't fully loaded therefore costing the industry less.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Or more to the point while offering incentives to people who use the trains at times when they aren't fully loaded therefore costing the industry less.

Bletchleyite in post #13 above suggested all Railcards should have the same T&Cs, so same time restrictions, minimum fare etc. This isn't going to happen of course, and whilst it might be an attractive idea for its simplicity it would remove the ability to target different markets in different ways.

For example, the Network Railcard's 'not before 10am' weekday restriction (with a few exceptions) does encourage discretionary travellers to travel that little bit later, i.e. after at least the first wave of morning off-peak trains, and so spread out demand. It's the same general principle as having Off-peak and then slightly cheaper Super Off-peak tickets on some routes (though the way it has been implemented in places isn't always all that great).

 

[bb21]

Bletchleyite in post #13 above suggested all Railcards should have the same T&Cs, so same time restrictions, minimum fare etc. This isn't going to happen of course, and whilst it might be an attractive idea for its simplicity it would remove the ability to target different markets in different ways.

It won't happen, I agree on that, but they can and should be simplified, perhaps down to two or three different sets of conditions.

Under the current arrangement, every single Railcard has something different about it. I wonder how many guards remember all of them. I bet not many.

 

[30907]

As a Senior Railcard holder myself, I would not object in principle to a minimum fare before 0930, but I agree with others that it would bring in little net revenue. And if you pursue the argument, it should apply to F and F too - but again, I doubt it would be worth it.

 

[ainsworth74]

I wonder how many guards remember all of them. I bet not many.

Saw a guard this morning who told a passengers 'You can only use your Senior Railcard at this time because your ticket is over £12 after discount otherwise you wouldn't be able to'.

 

[Qwerty133]

As a Senior Railcard holder myself, I would not object in principle to a minimum fare before 0930, but I agree with others that it would bring in little net revenue. And if you pursue the argument, it should apply to F and F too - but again, I doubt it would be worth it.

I believe at one point there was an exception for the rule that adult and child must travel together at all times for parents making journeys to take children to and from school so presumably the railway has always been happy with the family and friends card being used before 09:30

 

[Bletchleyite]

It won't happen, I agree on that, but they can and should be simplified, perhaps down to two or three different sets of conditions.

I think you could get most of the way with it.

So what would be the standard Railcard? Perhaps this:
- First Class travel allowed.
- For travel completely within London and the South East, no travel before 10am.
- For other travel, minimum fare of £X per adult ticket (per the present 18-25 Card).
- General adult fare of 66% of any adult fare
- Where applicable, general child fare 40% of any child fare

Then you just give the individual Cards their extra bits on a very simple basis, at different price levels:
- Friends and family - can be used, per card, for any group between 1 adult, 1 child and 4 adults, 4 children, one of the adults must be one of the named holders.
- NSE - as Friends and Family but 1 lone adult is allowed as a "group" and geographical restrictions apply
- Gold Card - don't understand why this is different and not just a free NSE
- Senior - no additional stipulations other than age restriction on issue
- 18-25 - no additional stipulations other than age restriction on issue
- DSB - can be used for one or two people one of whom is named holder, restricted issue
- Two Together - can be used for two named people
- National Railcard - unrestricted issue, no additional stipulations

...and whatever else they might come up with.

Yes, you'd lose the NSE minimum fare, but that's messy anyway. Just charge more for the Card. Or even bin it if we got a proper National Railcard.

The key thing this would achieve is to allow one "Railcard" button on TVMs, no need for separate ones because the discounts and times of validity are all the same.

 

[MikeWh]

- For travel completely within London and the South East, no travel before 10am.

This would massively alter the attractiveness of some railcards in many areas. The general rule is that travel is allowed when off-peak tickets are available. This is often on trains timed to arrive in London after 10am.

 

[Starmill]

Ah, the delights of intergenerational conflict!

I tried my best. The subject still doesn't have even the most tenuous of links to railcard terms.

 

[AM9]

I think you could get most of the way with it.

The key thing this would achieve is to allow one "Railcard" button on TVMs, no need for separate ones because the discounts and times of validity are all the same.

So, optimising the choices on your list:

- Friends and family - can be used, per card, for any group between 1 adult, 1 child and 4 adults, 4 children, one of the adults must be one of the named holders.
- NSE - as Friends and Family but 1 lone adult is allowed as a "group" and geographical restrictions apply Use F & F
- Gold Card - don't understand why this is different and not just a free NSE
- Senior - no additional stipulations other than age restriction on issue Use F & F
- 18-25 - no additional stipulations other than age restriction on issue Use F & F
- DSB - can be used for one or two people one of whom is named holder, restricted issue
- Two Together - can be used for two named people Use F & F
- National Railcard - unrestricted issue, no additional stipulations Use F & F

there would only be two types of card worth buying:
the DSB for those who qualify - and pay less for the card
and
the F&F for everybody else

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are discounts available in comparision with the annually-issued Senior Citizen Railcard, when the online three-year version of this railcard is purchased. My wife and I have purchased the three-year Senior Citizen railcard twice now.

 

[Hadders]

I've mentioned this before but if the 16-25 railcard was banned from use pre-09:30 it would result in huge price rises for younger commuters paying high prices, this would not go down well given this is part of the population the Government claims to want to help.

For example, Stevenage - London Terminals Anytime Day Return is £21.30/£3,612 per annum.

A young commuter travelling to London is able to buy a 16-25 Railcard discounted ticket for £14.05 making the weekly cost £70.25. It's difficult to calculate the annual cost as it depends on how much holiday the person gets but let's assume 5 weeks plus 8 Bank Holidays so around 217 days a year which works out at £3,049 per annum. I know season tickets offer additional benefits but they're unlikely to trump the saving.

What the current policy means is that younger commuters can make a significant saving over an annual season ticket, helping them out with the cost of living at a time in their career when they are likely to earn less than older workers. It also means they can pay as they go - not all companies offer season ticket loans.

 

[infobleep]

The law is actually based on the minimum school leaving age rather than specifically being aged 16. I don't think this has changed in recent years, though the requirement in England to either stay in education or do training until age 18 is newer.

GOV.UK - Child employment

Darandio, my reading is that there may have been a legally questionable period up to the last Friday in June, but I dare say that this isn't something people quibble over so long as the person has genuinely finished school.

How fascinating. I hadn't realised it was a postcode lottery as to whether children were allowed to work somewhere and at what time. Etc. Etc. I'd have thought there be one set of laws covering all of England. Obviously Wales and Scotland and Northern Ireland would be different.

I use the term postcode lottery tongue-in-cheek because newspapers use it when referring to provision of health services.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I use the term postcode lottery tongue-in-cheek because newspapers use it when referring to provision of health services.

Let us also remember the People's Postcode Lottery, that is advertised on television...

 

[MikeWh]

there would only be two types of card worth buying:
the DSB for those who qualify - and pay less for the card
and
the F&F for everybody else

And the F&F card is suitable for the myriad of groups where there are no children, yes?

oops!

 

[Bletchleyite]

And the F&F card is suitable for the myriad of groups where there are no children, yes?

oops!

I think he's probably suggesting that it becomes more like the Network Railcard, i.e. allows an adult-only group (or one adult).

I don't really agree, though, I see no particular issue with different group sizes etc for different prices, though I would like to see a National Railcard at a higher price (perhaps something like £80-100 per year via direct debit) with no restrictions of that nature.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A young commuter travelling to London is able to buy a 16-25 Railcard discounted ticket for £14.05 making the weekly cost £70.25. It's difficult to calculate the annual cost as it depends on how much holiday the person gets but let's assume 5 weeks plus 8 Bank Holidays so around 217 days a year which works out at £3,049 per annum. I know season tickets offer additional benefits but they're unlikely to trump the saving.

It would be better to offer discounted season tickets to under 26s than to allow that, though.

 

[adrock1976]

It would be better to offer discounted season tickets to under 26s than to allow that, though.

Season tickets are already discounted though, when compared with 5 lots of Anytime fares over the course of a week.

The price savings increase the longer the duration of a season ticket.

 

[Joe Paxton]

It would be better to offer discounted season tickets to under 26s than to allow that, though.

A further discount then? It's an idea.