Donald Trump and the aftermath of his presidency

[jon0844]

Had to laugh when I saw Republicans saying it was time to move on from the January 6th insurrection, as it almost sounded identical to the Tories saying it's time to move on with Boris and the party.

I guess if you want to get away with murder, just try and delay the trial as much as possible and use 'it was ages ago, can't we worry about something else' as a defence.

 

[brad465]

Because US politics have become so polarised, at least as far as those involved in it are concerned, that they have completely lost their sense of right and wrong. If their man does something, he is in the right, and it the other side’s man does something, thence is in the wrong. Full stop. There are no shades of grey any longer: it is an ‘us v. them’ situation. To be one of us your must accept that our leader must always be right, if you don’t, you are one of the enemy. US patriotism has long been rather brash and flag-waving ‘My country right or wrong’ (embarrassingly so to British eyes) and this has taken it to its (il)logical conclusion. My leader represents my country and if it can’t be wrong, nor can he. I suspect that there is still a large, silent majority watching things with horror, but things have become so poisonous that they dare not speak or propound moderate ideas as they fear that the raving nutters will set on them. (This is my opinion. I have never been further west than Tralee.)

Couldn't agree more, Rupert Murdoch in particular has a lot to answer for, and I doubt things will improve while he and Trump are still alive (it would not surprise me though if when Trump dies, whenever that maybe, that a number of his supporters demand his corpse is President).

In any case I think a peaceful resolution is hard to achieve and a second civil war maybe on the cards in future, which will be bloody given gun ownership in the US; we just have to hope it doesn't last long and certain foreign powers stay out of it, and the US rebuilds stronger and better, in the same many of the Axis powers did after WW2.

Ultimately I think what we're seeing is the US equivalent of what the USSR went through in the 80s: it's political and economic systems failing. The USSR system of extreme collectivism failed first, which gave a false vindication of the extreme individualism seen in the US, but it's perfectly possible for both systems to be flawed in some way.

 

[dorsetdesiro]

Trump is like a cartoon car-crash that you can't help but look at the wreckage out of curiosity between your fingers.

It has been pretty dull without him since he stepped down as we in the office used have a lot to chat about him also marvelling about his mis-steps.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Because US politics have become so polarised, at least as far as those involved in it are concerned, that they have completely lost their sense of right and wrong. If their man does something, he is in the right, and it the other side’s man does something, thence is in the wrong. Full stop. There are no shades of grey any longer: it is an ‘us v. them’ situation. To be one of us your must accept that our leader must always be right, if you don’t, you are one of the enemy. US patriotism has long been rather brash and flag-waving ‘My country right or wrong’ (embarrassingly so to British eyes) and this has taken it to its (il)logical conclusion. My leader represents my country and if it can’t be wrong, nor can he. I suspect that there is still a large, silent majority watching things with horror, but things have become so poisonous that they dare not speak or propound moderate ideas as they fear that the raving nutters will set on them. (This is my opinion. I have never been further west than Tralee.)

It needs the middle ground to be large enough to figure in politics. Instead too many people are abandoning restraint and rushing towards the opposite of what they find unacceptable. Hence the polarisation. Remember the media desire to provide stories that are clearly defined one way or another as they don't want to report wishy washy middle ground stuff unfortunately.

 

[Shrop]

Because US politics have become so polarised, at least as far as those involved in it are concerned, that they have completely lost their sense of right and wrong. If their man does something, he is in the right, and it the other side’s man does something, thence is in the wrong. Full stop. There are no shades of grey any longer: it is an ‘us v. them’ situation. To be one of us your must accept that our leader must always be right, if you don’t, you are one of the enemy.

Sadly that doesn't sound all that unlike our own House of Commons at Question Time. Boris and his fanatical cohorts exhibit many of the traits you describe, the only saving grace is that Boris has "only" broken the law numerous times while still believing himself to be in the right, at least has hasn't directly incited a riot. But what a sorry state modern democracies have become, when we have these leaders on either side of the Atlantic.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Sadly that doesn't sound all that unlike our own House of Commins at Question Time. Boris and his fanatical cohorts exhibit many of the traits you describe, the only saving grace is that Boris has "only" broken the law numerous times while still believing himself to be in the right, at least has hasn't directly incited a riot. But what a sorry state modern democracies have become, when we have these leaders on either side of the Atlantic.

Is the phrase "House of Commins" a political satire about a person that my poor brain is not able to understand?

 

[yorksrob]

Sadly that doesn't sound all that unlike our own House of Commins at Question Time. Boris and his fanatical cohorts exhibit many of the traits you describe, the only saving grace is that Boris has "only" broken the law numerous times while still believing himself to be in the right, at least has hasn't directly incited a riot. But what a sorry state modern democracies have become, when we have these leaders on either side of the Atlantic.

If like to think that the Tories will still dutifully trot out of office when they're voted out. When we actually get to do that is anyone's guess.

 

[Shrop]

Is the phrase "House of Commins" a political satire about a person that my poor brain is not able to understand?

Whoops - typo! Now edited

Is the phrase "House of Commins" a political satire about a person that my poor brain is not able to understand?

But there must be room for a satire about Cummins in with that typo!

 

[43096]

But there must be room for a satire about Cummins in with that typo!

What's an American engine manufacturer done to deserve satire?

 

[najaB]

How is it that someone whose actions have been proved to lead directly to seeral deaths, can even be spared jail, let alone standing to run the world's most powerful democracy?

Largely because that causal link, while obvious to the layperson, has not yet been proven in a court of law.

If and when it is he will become ineligible to hold office.

 

[Shrop]

Largely because that causal link, while obvious to the layperson, has not yet been proven in a court of law.

If and when it is he will become ineligible to hold office.

It will be interesting to see how the US legal system fares on this. The UK legal system has proved itself to be absolutely abysmal in it's grossly biased and unreasonable punishments of Covid offences. Even after those things that were obvious to the layperson were eventually taken to court and the offences proved.

 

[daodao]

There was understandable anger after the US presidential election in 2020 because of the widespread feeling that it was "stolen", in part because of counting of "mail-in" ballots received after the close of "in person" voting, and other malpractices in Democrat-controlled districts, which appears to have changed the result in several swing states such as Pennsylvania. Clearly, those individuals who took matters into their own hands physically on 6th Jan 2021 and committed criminal acts should be identified, tried and punished if found guilty. However, Trump did no more than express his reasonable annoyance at the apparent theft of an election which he seemed initially to be winning, and his hounding by sections of the American body politic is disgraceful. It is better to take the approach "don't get angry, get even", which Trump temperamentally seems unable to do. I am not a US citizen and therefore take no particular position on the Democrat-Republican antipathy.

 

[jon0844]

I read that as you actually thinking the election WAS stolen? Are you serious?!

The only cases I've heard of fraud so far have been Republicans trying to vote in more than one state, and we're talking maybe 10-20 cases max.. so not anything either party would need to be worried about. It isn't a thing, full stop.

When Trump tried to stop the mail service, he ensured votes would be counted after polling closed - but that doesn't mean it was fraud. As long as you've posted your vote on time, that's all that matters.

I always vote in the UK by post.

 

[daodao]

I read that as you actually thinking the election WAS stolen?

No comment, because I don't know - many people believe it was stolen, many do not. I am extremely suspicious of the delayed/prolonged vote counting, which is not a feature of UK elections, with the exception of the complicated STV and De Hondt counting systems used in some non-English elections.

I always vote in the UK by post.

It will only be counted if it is received by the time "in person" voting closes.

 

[jon0844]

And it will only be counted if it is received by the time "in person" voting closes.

Unless there was a delay outside of your control with the postal service, in which case the count would have to be delayed. You cannot bin people's votes in a democracy, and you cannot install someone at the postal service to remove post boxes and do everything humanly possible to stop people voting.

It's quite incredible that this is what a country like the USA did, not some country where you might go 'meh' as if it's the norm. Sadly, every year that goes by has me thinking that if our Government tried to do the same thing, it wouldn't actually seem that surprising.

Many states made it quite clear the count would start after the polling closed. It wasn't a thing, until Trump started to sow the seed that it was all corruption and meddling, which started the big lie in the first place. Now we know that people around him knew it was a lie (well, duh) but they seemed happy to go along with it if it had worked.

 

[Cowley]

It will only be counted if it is received by the time "in person" voting closes.

Yes but how about answering the question @jon0844 asked you?
Which was:

I read that as you actually thinking the election WAS stolen? Are you serious?!

 

[dosxuk]

However, Trump did no more than express his reasonable annoyance at the apparent theft of an election which he seemed initially to be winning, and his hounding by sections of the American body politic is disgraceful.

Taking into account your views on Ukraine and the UK politics, I should probably just ignore this, but it needs correcting.

Trump was both calling for the count to be stopped where he was winning and the count to be continued where he was losing. He then made numerous unfounded claims of widespread fraud and other illegalities. He then called on his supporters to march on Congress and make their voices heard so the formal declaration would be disrupted.

None of that is "reasonable annoyance".

It should also be noted that the counting continued, as intended, in both Republican and Democrat controlled states, with Trump butting heads with Republican administrators who were being asked to "just find 10,000 votes".

 

[najaB]

There was understandable anger after the US presidential election in 2020 because of the widespread feeling that it was "stolen", in part because of counting of "mail-in" ballots received after the close of "in person" voting, and other malpractices in Democrat-controlled districts, which appears to have changed the result in several swing states such as Pennsylvania.

Counting of mail-in ballots after polling day isn't malpractice, it's been long-standing in many states that the postmark date is used for overseas and military ballots. In 2020 several states simply extended that to cover domestic mail-in ballots due to USPS delays (which, of course, had nothing to do with a Trump-appointed Postmaster General removing sorting machines).

Clearly, those individuals who took matters into their own hands physically on 6th Jan 2021 and committed criminal acts should be identified, tried and punished if found guilty.

Agreed. Everyone who committed criminal offenses both in the lead-up to and during the assault on the Capitol should identified, tried and punished if found guilty.

However, Trump did no more than express his reasonable annoyance at the apparent theft of an election which he seemed initially to be winning, and his hounding by sections of the American body politic is disgraceful.

He did significantly more than express his annoyance, he and those around him stirred up his base with repeated claims that they knew to be false, and engaged in a criminal conspiracy to try and change the result of the election. You don't need any more evidence than his very own words:

I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have.

That there isn't expressing annoyance, it is prima facia evidence of a conspiracy to overturn the election result in Georgia.

 

[Shrop]

There was understandable anger after the US presidential election in 2020 because of the widespread feeling that it was "stolen",

I don't agree that the anger was understandable. This allegation of "stolen" was made by a sore loser, with die-hard Republicans desperate to cling on to anything, irrespective of truth. Trump knowingly gave them this false belief which led directly to the anger, and then to multiple deaths.

And quite apart from that, I didn't see Trump or any other Republicans complaining when Trump got fewer votes than Hilary Clinton and yet was still elected. Surely that would give greater legitimacy than Trump had, to the Democrats to claim that their election was stolen. But they accepted it in the manner that any genuine democracy should.

Taking into account your views on Ukraine and the UK politics, I should probably just ignore this, but it needs correcting.

Trump was both calling for the count to be stopped where he was winning and the count to be continued where he was losing. He then made numerous unfounded claims of widespread fraud and other illegalities. He then called on his supporters to march on Congress and make their voices heard so the formal declaration would be disrupted.

None of that is "reasonable annoyance".

It should also be noted that the counting continued, as intended, in both Republican and Democrat controlled states, with Trump butting heads with Republican administrators who were being asked to "just find 10,000 votes".

Well said.

 

[XAM2175]

Unless there was a delay outside of your control with the postal service, in which case the count would have to be delayed. You cannot bin people's votes in a democracy, and you cannot install someone at the postal service to remove post boxes and do everything humanly possible to stop people voting.

To briefly address this point - as much as this would be more fair, it isn't the case in the UK. The ballot must be received by returning officials before 10 pm on election day to be valid.

 

[Strathclyder]

Counting of mail-in ballots after polling day isn't malpractice, it's been long-standing in many states that the postmark date is used for overseas and military ballots. In 2020 several states simply extended that to cover domestic mail-in ballots due to USPS delays (which, of course, had nothing to do with a Trump-appointed Postmaster General removing sorting machines).

Quite (but not just removing them, but having them destroyed).

Also worth noting here, if it hasn't been already, that the President can't directly fire the incumbent Postmaster General, that matter is up to members of the US Post Office board voting in favour of such a action IIRC. Part of me wishes Biden did have that power though, given DeJoy is, by a comfortable margin, the worst/most ill-suited person ever to be appointed in living memory and bore significant responsibilty for exacerbating the Post Offices' woes after he assumed the position* - not the root of it's pre-existing problems for sure, but he certainly made them a whole lot worse - the sorting machines fiasco merely being the tip of the iceberg.

* Seems to be one of the sparingly few things Trump and his stooges seem to be good at incidentally, much as it sickens me to admit: drop in, worsen existing problems while creating a laundry list of new ones while enriching themselves behind (mostly!) the scenes, then clearing off leaving everyone else to clean up the resultant mess. As befits their one-dimensional, purely transactionary way of going about things.

 

[Shrop]

Interesting news reports in recent days, about Trump exhibiting highly irrational behaviour at the time he was voted out of offices with numerous previously unheard testimonies. How then, is he still running the country on climate issues, gun laws, and abortion rights? Behind the scenes it would appear that the fact that Democrats have the President and the public vote, they seem to have little or no power to control some of the most important issues that concern the USA and beyond.

 

[najaB]

How then, is he still running the country on climate issues, gun laws, and abortion rights?

He's not, really. The recent supreme court decisions are as much Mitch McConnell's legacy as they are Trumps, perhaps more so.

 

[Strathclyder]

He's not, really. The recent supreme court decisions are as much Mitch McConnell's legacy as they are Trumps, perhaps more so.

Quite. As much as McConnell would disagree when the ramifications of his actions/inactions and blatant hypocrisy are brought to bear.

 

[brad465]

Just in case anyone was wondering how Trump is getting on:

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1553819684692234241

A real post from the 45th president

 

[Basil Jet]

How then, is he still running the country on climate issues, gun laws, and abortion rights?

He isn't, the constitution is. It's older than Trump. It's even older than Biden.

 

[pdeaves]

Just in case anyone was wondering how Trump is getting on:

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1553819684692234241

No change then, still reads like a toddler wrote it. He won't let the past remain in the past!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No change then, still reads like a toddler wrote it. He won't let the past remain in the past!

Or as Vic Reeves used to say in the Reeves and Mortimer show....."He wouldn't let it lie".

 

[Shrop]

He isn't, the constitution is. It's older than Trump. It's even older than Biden

Hmm, what this tells you is that both Trump and the constitution are seriously misguided and entrenched

No change then, still reads like a toddler wrote it. He won't let the past remain in the past!

and this follows - Trump can only make childish jokes based on his sour grapes refusal to accept that the American public really did want him out of office. I'm no great Biden fan, and the fact the Trump lost against him shows how disliked he was by millions of Americans.

Which all makes it all the more concerning that this "great country" holds on to the Trump stance on climate, abortion and gun laws. Quite a shambles really.

 

[Typhoon]

Just in case anyone was wondering how Trump is getting on:

https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1553819684692234241

Still, good news for the US media. The likes of Colbert, Kimmel and Meyers have material for the intro to the their next show, and Hannity can interview some nut-job one wearing a MAGA hat who swears that they saw 'The Beast' driving into some medical unit in Wisconsin just as The Donald claimed.