Doncaster Sheffield Airport to reopen?

[pug1]

It’s really not that long a runway. It’s mid-ranking in terms of length for civil runways in the UK. 747s landed and took off routinely at LBA on a much shorter runway for many years, so this idea that DSA has some advantage because of its runway is misplaced.

And that’s before we get to the fact that East Midlands, which is the regional air freight hub, is much better located in terms of major road and rail access. There isn’t any need for further freight provision currently.

The problem from a customer pov is that no major airlines want to make a major commitment to DSA as it offers them no advantage over more established airports in a similar catchment area (EMA, LBA and MAN). This isn’t a problem unique to DSA. Teeside and Humberside airports also struggle for exactly the same catchment area issues, although Teeside has a recent freight contract and also the RAF support airframes via Draken.

Exactly, EMA is far too close to DSA for DSA to have any real advantage in the freight sector. Its runway is within a couple of metres pretty much exactly the same length too.

Humberside doesn’t struggle, I think it’s a bit of a misunderstanding that because it’s not a busy passenger airport that it’s struggling. It has lucrative offshore contracts, the Search and Rescue function and due to the fact it’s actually quite a large ports complex, plus the offshore oil and gas and renewables sector, and the petrochemical industries it provides a lot of high yielding passengers for KLM through their Amsterdam link which is why it still exists there and has done for 50 years now.

All Humberside needs passenger wise is a modest selection of leisure orientated destinations to make the terminal operations profitable and it would be a successful little airport.

Problem DSA had and will continue to have should it reopen, is that it’s a large airport where demand cannot meet capacity. When Peel ran it they had huge overheads as necessary for running a full service 24h operation. That will have to change, so if it does get off the ground I wouldn’t start expecting it being business as usual.

 

[Bantamzen]

It would be good to do a lot of freight travel as the long runway is ideal for this area as it can take the largest Planes. The problem with customer travel is it’s not the best connected public transport wise as the X4 is hourly but the vehicles used are not set up for specific airport traffic & there is still the issue of no Train station.

As mentioned above, there is already EMA as a freight hub and carriers / logistics companies are not likely to move en masse simply because Doncaster CC want to re-open DSA.

Passenger traffic is even less likely, its already been tried and frankly got nowhere near the kind of numbers needed to actually break even and move into profit. Doncaster CC themselves only envisage similar passenger numbers (in the region of 1.5 - 2 million pa) with a projected 10 years before it will go into profit. Over on various aviation sites, the general consensus amongst people close to the industry is that DSA would need in excess of 3 million passengers pa to turn a profit, so Doncaster CC's projections won't exactly be setting fires in the aviation industry. And all of this is before you consider DSA's location. Being in the south east of the country, it is quite some distance from many Yorkshire cities and towns which are better served by Manchester and Leeds Bradford. And both of these are expanding, Manchester is building up T2 for considerably more capacity, and LBA is building a terminal extension, more stands and improved taxiways for some additional expansion. To the south many cities and towns have Birmingham and East Midlands better placed for them, and east of DSA is basically fields with few small towns and villages. So unless livestock start getting passports and booking holidays, DSA simply doesn't have the potential footfall to attract holiday airlines back.

Finally there's the cost of restarting operations. I suspect that Doncaster CC have wildly underestimated just how much it would cost just to get the airport back to a useful status and certified. Again those closer to the industry are talking in 9 figure numbers. So either they, or an operator will have to invest massively to get it up and running, which would likely take years just to get to a ready state. And with DCC's projection of no profits for a decade, its going to be the latter part of the next decade before even by their estimations it would become financially viable. On a gamble scale of small to grand, DSA is somewhere around blowing the mortgage on a single hand in Vegas....

 

[pug1]

As mentioned above, there is already EMA as a freight hub and carriers / logistics companies are not likely to move en masse simply because Doncaster CC want to re-open DSA.

Passenger traffic is even less likely, its already been tried and frankly got nowhere near the kind of numbers needed to actually break even and move into profit. Doncaster CC themselves only envisage similar passenger numbers (in the region of 1.5 - 2 million pa) with a projected 10 years before it will go into profit. Over on various aviation sites, the general consensus amongst people close to the industry is that DSA would need in excess of 3 million passengers pa to turn a profit, so Doncaster CC's projections won't exactly be setting fires in the aviation industry. And all of this is before you consider DSA's location. Being in the south east of the country, it is quite some distance from many Yorkshire cities and towns which are better served by Manchester and Leeds Bradford. And both of these are expanding, Manchester is building up T2 for considerably more capacity, and LBA is building a terminal extension, more stands and improved taxiways for some additional expansion. To the south many cities and towns have Birmingham and East Midlands better placed for them, and east of DSA is basically fields with few small towns and villages. So unless livestock start getting passports and booking holidays, DSA simply doesn't have the potential footfall to attract holiday airlines back.

Finally there's the cost of restarting operations. I suspect that Doncaster CC have wildly underestimated just how much it would cost just to get the airport back to a useful status and certified. Again those closer to the industry are talking in 9 figure numbers. So either they, or an operator will have to invest massively to get it up and running, which would likely take years just to get to a ready state. And with DCC's projection of no profits for a decade, its going to be the latter part of the next decade before even by their estimations it would become financially viable. On a gamble scale of small to grand, DSA is somewhere around blowing the mortgage on a single hand in Vegas....

Agreed, it’s not just the cost of reinstating equipment, recruitment and jumping through all the necessary regulatory hoops. There is also the requirement to invest in marketing to airlines, because the passenger side of things, although not the most profitable segment, is nonetheless the reason people seem to be supporting the use of tax payer money to get it up and running again. Nobody appears to be managing expectations in any way whatsoever. You still have people believing that it will be offering long haul flights for instance.

Part of the original OBC was an acceptance that the Council would need to subsidise an appointed operator for up to 24months from commencement of operations. Not only will that mean therefore that they will be liable for the lease payment, but reading between the lines a bit the operator may be asking for subsidies to entice airlines. To give you an example of how much this can cost, Flybe when they chose to open a base at DSA were subsidies to the tune of £1million per year by the airport operator. In return they didn’t even provide more than 400,000 passengers through the terminal per year.

I don’t think we know enough yet about how the structure of the airport operation will look, but I cannot fathom at the moment how any private sector investor would want to risk their own capital on this project at the moment. It’ll require a great deal of good will from Peel in doing so. Are the operator simply going to be an operator, running the airport on behalf of the council on a budget set by the council? Or are they to be expected to invest their own money into it?

Just a bizarre situation where I cannot see any winners in the long term, except for Peel who will win out whatever happens.

 

[Killingworth]

Despite encountering some traffic congestion on my journeys to and from Manchester Airport yesterday from my side of Sheffield both took less than 90 minutes by car. I know I can reach DSA in 50 minutes.

From the east side of Sheffield the comparison will be much more in DSAs favour.

Yesterday I saw many aircraft of all sizes from a variety of airlines together in one view. Last time I visited DSA I saw one all afternoon.

Of course you have to start somewhere. The runway is good and the terminal cries out for users.

Throwing multi-millions at airlines to attract them, largely to offer holiday flights, seems a profligate waste of public money that's desperately required for more pressing needs.

 

[pug1]

Despite encountering some traffic congestion on my joirneys to and from Mancester Airport yesterday from my side of Sheffield both took less than 90 minutes by car. I know I can reach DSA in 50 minutes.

From the east side of Sheffield the comparison will be much more in DSAs favour.

Yesterday I saw many aircraft of all sizes from a variety of airlines together in one view. Last time I visited DSA I saw one all afternoon.

Of course you have to atart somwhere. The runway is good and the terminal cries out for users.

Throwing multi-millons at airlines to attract them, largely to offer holiday flights, seems a profligate waste of public money that's desperately needed for more pressing needs.

I think drive time catchment areas are problematic. For instance, MAN has a huge drive time catchment area by virtue of the fact that it has a lot more flights so inevitably more people with travel from further afield to use it. I.e people from Hull are far more likely to drive to Manchester than people from Manchester to drive over to use Humberside. The gravitational pull of a major airport is what generates the continued demand and derisks sufficiently for airlines to try more routes and for the airport to invest further in the necessary infrastructure to handle it.

People quite the number of people within 60 minutes drive of DSA as being quite large, but actually it’s not that much different from the Humberside figure. In fact, within 30 minutes Humberside has a larger catchment area!

Then you have to factor in the competition. How many airports are within 60 miles of Sheffield for instance?

Then once you’ve done this, how many of those airports within 60 miles have airlines based or operating flights that would also be needed to make DSA a success? Why have they chosen EMA, LBA and MAN over DSA for instance? Is it because 75% of DSA’s catchment area on a map is sheep and cattle?

During the public enquiry of 2003 it was highlighted that DSA would be more convenient for less people. It’s simply played out, and Peels track records of investing in the wrong airports (except Liverpool, which gets conveniently skipped past? has allowed a narrative of ulterior motives to take over.

This is going to cost a fortune, it’s unlikely to generate the economic stimulus the council say it will. It would be better used for housing.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I think drive time catchment areas are problematic. For instance, MAN has a huge drive time catchment area by virtue of the fact that it has a lot more flights so inevitably more people with travel from further afield to use it. I.e people from Hull are far more likely to drive to Manchester than people from Manchester to drive over to use Humberside. The gravitational pull of a major airport is what generates the continued demand and derisks sufficiently for airlines to try more routes and for the airport to invest further in the necessary infrastructure to handle it.

People quite the number of people within 60 minutes drive of DSA as being quite large, but actually it’s not that much different from the Humberside figure. In fact, within 30 minutes Humberside has a larger catchment area!

Then you have to factor in the competition. How many airports are within 60 miles of Sheffield for instance?

Then once you’ve done this, how many of those airports within 60 miles have airlines based or operating flights that would also be needed to make DSA a success? Why have they chosen EMA, LBA and MAN over DSA for instance? Is it because 75% of DSA’s catchment area on a map is sheep and cattle?

During the public enquiry of 2003 it was highlighted that DSA would be more convenient for less people. It’s simply played out, and Peels track records of investing in the wrong airports (except Liverpool, which gets conveniently skipped past? has allowed a narrative of ulterior motives to take over.

This is going to cost a fortune, it’s unlikely to generate the economic stimulus the council say it will. It would be better used for housing.

I completely agree. Another point to consider is why would airlines move back to DSA? What incentive is there? Wizz has moved to LBA and seems to be doing quite well, TUI went to EMA and is growing their presence there. Why move back to DSA as an airline?

 

[pug1]

I completely agree. Another point to consider is why would airlines move back to DSA? What incentive is there? Wizz has moved to LBA and seems to be doing quite well, TUI went to EMA and is growing their presence there. Why move back to DSA as an airline?

This is the £138million question. I hear TUI are quite short on aircraft since leaving DSA and are unlikely to be able to commit to a new base. Jet2 are an outside possibility because they’ve reached a level of maturity where their customer base is incredibly loyal, but it still poses the question of why would they when they happily fly from LBA and EMA already, and both airports are investing heavily in their passenger facilities at the moment.

Question marks over easyjet, purely because it’s an open market for them in Yorkshire. There is a chance that should an experienced airport operator be at the helm of a DSA 2.0, they could influence easyjet enough to take a risk and go all in. Problem with that is their lacklustre support received when they attempted it twice previously, and they maintain a token presence at LBA I believe as a means of communication as it’s highly plausible they’re a target airline for when LBA has sufficient space to host them. However, with very little presence east of the Pennines they are a best case scenario for high volume growth at the moment. But just look at what happened at Southend as a cautionary tale.

Wizz might return, but knowing Wizz they might stay at LBA. Anyone’s guess.

Ryanair, who knows. They got an excellent deal before but still couldn’t be convinced to base there. One of their largest bases in the U.K. is at EMA, and they’re growing at LBA. Is there room?

KLM, perhaps they could be tempted across from Humberside. However they have operated from Humberside in various guises for 50 years. Is a change likely considering the clamping down on slots at AMS? It didn’t work out well when they tried to set up from LPL and EMA so what makes DSA an attractive proposition for them?

 

[YorkRailFan]

This is the £138million question. I hear TUI are quite short on aircraft since leaving DSA and are unlikely to be able to commit to a new base. Jet2 are an outside possibility because they’ve reached a level of maturity where their customer base is incredibly loyal, but it still poses the question of why would they when they happily fly from LBA and EMA already, and both airports are investing heavily in their passenger facilities at the moment.

Question marks over easyjet, purely because it’s an open market for them in Yorkshire. There is a chance that should an experienced airport operator be at the helm of a DSA 2.0, they could influence easyjet enough to take a risk and go all in. Problem with that is their lacklustre support received when they attempted it twice previously, and they maintain a token presence at LBA I believe as a means of communication as it’s highly plausible they’re a target airline for when LBA has sufficient space to host them. However, with very little presence east of the Pennines they are a best case scenario for high volume growth at the moment. But just look at what happened at Southend as a cautionary tale.

Wizz might return, but knowing Wizz they might stay at LBA. Anyone’s guess.

Ryanair, who knows. They got an excellent deal before but still couldn’t be convinced to base there. One of their largest bases in the U.K. is at EMA, and they’re growing at LBA. Is there room?

KLM, perhaps they could be tempted across from Humberside. However they have operated from Humberside in various guises for 50 years. Is a change likely considering the clamping down on slots at AMS? It didn’t work out well when they tried to set up from LPL and EMA so what makes DSA an attractive proposition for them?

Jet2 is loyal to LBA, Easyjet is drawing customers across the Pennines to MAN, Wizz is happy at LBA, Ryanair isn't interested, TUI might and KLM might. One things for certain, British Airways won't.

 

[westv]

I completely agree. Another point to consider is why would airlines move back to DSA? What incentive is there? Wizz has moved to LBA and seems to be doing quite well, TUI went to EMA and is growing their presence there. Why move back to DSA as an airline?

What made TUI choose Doncaster when it opened and why did they stay there until it closed?

 

[pug1]

What made TUI choose Doncaster when it opened and why did they stay there until it closed?

Haven’t we covered this already? TUI at DSA was a legacy of Thomsonfly which was their poorly implemented answer to fight off competition from Ryanair and Easyjet. They moved into DSA as a launch airline and never really received much competition. They did the same at Coventry. Google it.

Filling flights with package holiday customers is easy, but what they did was all but abandon LBA and HUY to do this, leaving a huge gap at LBA that was filled by Jet2. Jet2 now being a much larger airline and tour operator than the U.K. arm of what is now TUI.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Perhaps a new aircraft manufacturer could be tempted to set up at DSA to test aircraft. I think it unlikely that BAE or Airbus would move, but perhaps a smaller scale manufacturer could be tempted.

 

[edwin_m]

Perhaps a new aircraft manufacturer could be tempted to set up at DSA to test aircraft. I think it unlikely that BAE or Airbus would move, but perhaps a smaller scale manufacturer could be tempted.

Difficult to see why they would do that, when there are airports with existing free capacity without a (probably small) new manufactuer having to bear most or all of the running costs. For example EMA is often mentioned on this thread and most would agree it has been more successful than DSA, but it has capacity available for Ryanair training flights.

 

[AlastairFraser]

Difficult to see why they would do that, when there are airports with existing free capacity without a (probably small) new manufactuer having to bear most or all of the running costs. For example EMA is often mentioned on this thread and most would agree it has been more successful than DSA, but it has capacity available for Ryanair training flights.

Because those airports may use the valuable landing and take off slots for something else?

 

[edwin_m]

Because those airports may use the valuable landing and take off slots for something else?

That only applies if they are at capacity. As suggested in my last post, I doubt EMR is for example, otherwise Ryanair would do their training flights elsewhere.

 

[AlastairFraser]

That only applies if they are at capacity. As suggested in my last post, I doubt EMR is for example, otherwise Ryanair would do their training flights elsewhere.

It depends on the scale. Someone like e.g. Wright Aviation could well receive a lot of orders for 150 seat hybrids in the next decades and require more slots than are available at existing airports.

 

[HullRailMan]

You’ve got to love the hypocrisy and illogical thinking of politicians. Doncaster Council declared a “climate and biodiversity crisis” in 2019, and is putting council tax up by the maximum amount this year as its short of cash, but, within this context, thinks reopening an airport as a vanity project is somehow a cracking idea. Even local MP Ed Miliband, Labour’s chief net zero campaigner, thinks it’s a great idea. We really need saving from these people.

 

[edwin_m]

It depends on the scale. Someone like e.g. Wright Aviation could well receive a lot of orders for 150 seat hybrids in the next decades and require more slots than are available at existing airports.

I can't even find them on web search so they must be pretty obscure. As you suggest, hybrid aircraft could be decades away from production so not a firm basis for an airport business case.

 

[westv]

I didn't realise that Jet2 was now bigger than UK TUI as the later offers more destinations. However, a number of their routes also use other operator's flights.

 

[pug1]

I didn't realise that Jet2 was now bigger than UK TUI as the later offers more destinations. However, a number of their routes also use other operator's flights.

Jet2 had almost 1 million more ATOL licensed passengers than TUI last year, that is inclusive of the TUI passengers using other airlines.

With regards to aircraft manufacturing, not sure who would want to build a factory at an aspiring international airport? Who are Wright Aviation? The investment by Hybrid Air Vehicles is not related to DSA and it would not be able to be on an airport site as airships do not mix well with conventional aircraft.

The commercial director of eastern airways has issued caution today, ‘it’s not going to be a flurry of airlines clambering over each other to be in there first, a seriously considered plan is required to establish how financial and operational sustainability can be achieved’. Well said that man, someone who has experience in the field speaking out finally!

You’ve got to love the hypocrisy and illogical thinking of politicians. Doncaster Council declared a “climate and biodiversity crisis” in 2019, and is putting council tax up by the maximum amount this year as its short of cash, but, within this context, thinks reopening an airport as a vanity project is somehow a cracking idea. Even local MP Ed Miliband, Labour’s chief net zero campaigner, thinks it’s a great idea. We really need saving from these people.

In fairness the money they plan on investing into this scheme is intended for economic regeneration and such is the way these pots are allocated cannot be used for public services. I agree though, it doesn’t exactly send out a good message to the council tax payers who are seeing £millions being pumped into this and then getting notification of rates rises.

Problem with using the money intended for economic stimulation on an airport? Airports do not stimulate an economy, they reflect the economic strength of the region they serve. It is not Manchester and never will be, the market just does not exist, but no matter how much you say this stuff still they continue.

How would I invest the money? Create better, faster and more reliable surface links to Manchester airport. Local pride is an expensive thing.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Why would a start up aircraft manufacturer choose DSA when there's say Teeside not too far away, or Leeds East Airport, etc?

 

[pug1]

Why would a start up aircraft manufacturer choose DSA when there's say Teeside not too far away, or Leeds East Airport, etc?

Exactly, most manufacturers of times past had their own airfields (and weren’t too keen on sharing!), but you just have to look at the former aircraft manufacturing sites with airfields that have closed in the last 40 years. Bitteswell, Brough, Holme on Spalding Moor, Hatfield, Filton and Woodford are just a few. It is incredibly difficult to enter into the scaleable production of aircraft these days, it’s why Boeing and Airbus are the market leaders and will continue to be so for any future environmentally considerate developments. Component manufacturing and advanced R&D are the future, and you do not need to go to the expense of having a licensed airfield to complete that work. Which is one of the many stinkers in the announcements made by Oliver Coppard and Ros Jones in recent months to double down on their support for the airports reopening.

 

[BrianW]

You’ve got to love the hypocrisy and illogical thinking of politicians. Doncaster Council declared a “climate and biodiversity crisis” in 2019, and is putting council tax up by the maximum amount this year as its short of cash, but, within this context, thinks reopening an airport as a vanity project is somehow a cracking idea. Even local MP Ed Miliband, Labour’s chief net zero campaigner, thinks it’s a great idea. We really need saving from these people.

Thinks- are there any elections around the corner? Needs a headstone for an obvious vanity project. Doncaster has great rail services and needs no airport of its own. Where is Doncaster University?

 

[pug1]

Thinks- are there any elections around the corner? Needs a headstone for an obvious vanity project. Doncaster has great rail services and needs no airport of its own. Where is Doncaster University?

Yes, local elections in May. Purdah starts this weekend, so cynical announcement made on Thursday prior to entering the pre election phase (where such announcements are not allowed!).

 

[YorkRailFan]

Yes, local elections in May. Purdah starts this weekend, so cynical announcement made on Thursday prior to entering the pre election phase (where such announcements are not allowed!).

Mayoral elections in May as well.

 

[AlastairFraser]

I can't even find them on web search so they must be pretty obscure. As you suggest, hybrid aircraft could be decades away from production so not a firm basis for an airport business case.

Sorry, Wright Electric is their trading name.
Have a look here: https://www.weflywright.com/about
They have some serious backers.
I wasn't suggesting they are the sole solution, but they could provide a partial role in subsidising other operations.

 

[CC 72100]

Jet2 is loyal to LBA, Easyjet is drawing customers across the Pennines to MAN, Wizz is happy at LBA, Ryanair isn't interested, TUI might and KLM might. One things for certain, British Airways won't.

And certainly can't see Wizz taking on much new for the moment, having cut routes this summer due to engine issues.

 

[pug1]

And certainly can't see Wizz taking on much new for the moment, having cut routes this summer due to engine issues.

Don’t even know if KLM might. They fly from HUY, and their previous attempts to establish in bigger markets at EMA and LPL didn’t last long.

 

[Nym]

And with the flight number limits at AMS, it's unlikely that new routes on risky airports would happen.

I'd much rather see them try to move back into EMA again, the FlyBE route from there was popular.

 

[pug1]

And with the flight number limits at AMS, it's unlikely that new routes on risky airports would happen.

I'd much rather see them try to move back into EMA again, the FlyBE route from there was popular.

They could of course move the Humberside flights over to DSA, it’s not impossible. But they’ve been at Humberside for 50 years now under numerous guises and it was a target route for Peel when DSA opened and despite numerous attempts at undercutting the package at Humberside they decided to stay there.

 

[WestCoast]

Jet2 is loyal to LBA, Easyjet is drawing customers across the Pennines to MAN, Wizz is happy at LBA, Ryanair isn't interested, TUI might and KLM might. One things for certain, British Airways won't.

Interestingly, TUI has recently signed a deal with Ryanair actually to sell TUI holidays with Ryanair flights. If the fees are priced right, I could definitely see Ryanair operating flights into DSA from their bases in Spain / Portugal / Greece in the same way they do to airports like Teeside, Newquay and Norwich. It’s much lower risk than basing aircraft at DSA, although probably will mean the airport needs continual subsidy.