DOO on Northern and general discussion on future staffing arrangements

[Moonshot]

Have you actually seen the list of the closure dates for these boxes..you are talking a couple of decades at least.

yes I know....but its happening, and should see some significant improvements in the operational efficiency of the rail network.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

yes I know....but its happening, and should see some significant improvements in the operational efficiency of the rail network.

You have way too much faith in Network Rail Moonshot lol

 

[muz379]

You have way too much faith in Network Rail Moonshot lol

what do you mean Network rail will deliver the efficient reliable high capacity railway the north needs on budget and on time , and the dft will pave the way for the nice modern reliable rolling stock that is needed

 

[Moonshot]

You have way too much faith in Network Rail Moonshot lol

Not sure what that means.....but in any event the building and commissioning of a new state of the art signalling centre at Ashburys will mean that the entire NW region will have signalling controlled from a single point. Its a rational decision to make. The sooner the Network is fully track circuited and with coloured light signals , the better.

 

[muz379]

Not sure what that means.....but in any event the building and commissioning of a new state of the art signalling centre at Ashburys will mean that the entire NW region will have signalling controlled from a single point. Its a rational decision to make. The sooner the Network is fully track circuited and with coloured light signals , the better.

some places that just isnt necessary though , look at rainford to kirkby , absolutely no business case for changing the signalling up there .

I get in many places TCB and even ERTMS is the way forward but not everywhere

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Not sure what that means.....but in any event the building and commissioning of a new state of the art signalling centre at Ashburys will mean that the entire NW region will have signalling controlled from a single point. Its a rational decision to make. The sooner the Network is fully track circuited and with coloured light signals , the better.

Trouble is moonshot is the likelihood of that happening would take 20 years at least. People still remember the chaos that was the so called replacement of Edgeley 1&2 and Stockport 1&2 boxes.. Spent millions on a future proof system that was.....NOT compatible lol

 

[Moonshot]

Trouble is moonshot is the likelihood of that happening would take 20 years at least. People still remember the chaos that was the so called replacement of Edgeley 1&2 and Stockport 1&2 boxes.. Spent millions a future proof system that was.....NOT compatible lol

Like I said, its already happening ......a brand new state of the art building for signalling is already built and nearly ready to use. Whats happened in the past is frankly ...the past.

 

[muz379]

look at the problems getting like 4 new signals to work at the tod curve . and then magnify that to cover an area the size of the NW

The building is already up and the process is already underway but its still a long drawn out process of problems and faults ahead to transfer control of all of those boxes areas into one big signalling center . It wont happen overnight and it wont be smooth at times .

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Like I said, its already happening ......a brand new state of the art building for signalling is already built and nearly ready to use. Whats happened in the past is frankly ...the past.

Until the next multi million pound foul up occurs. People are supposed to learn from the Mistakes of the past....Network rail prefer to repeat the same errors (usually because their budget is squeezed all the time). I don't know how long you have been on the railway Moonshot but you have way too much faith in Network Rail than someone who has been a railwayperson for a while

 

[Moonshot]

Until the next multi million pound foul up occurs. People are supposed to learn from the Mistakes of the past....Network rail prefer to repeat the same errors (usually because their budget is squeezed all the time). I don't know how long you have been on the railway Moonshot but you have way too much faith in Network Rail than someone who has been a railwayperson for a while

I seem to remember British Rail investing heavily in a so called tilting train ( APT ) many years ago - which never saw service. But hey ho there we go ....

I ll just repeat what I stated earlier but in different words....the days of old fashioned signal boxes are numbered....and rightly so.

 

[muz379]

well yer there is no requirement to locally control LC's or see the train out of section any more , there is no safety case for a signaller to be able to see a railway from his window

but that doesnt mean the transition isnt going to take time and encounter a number of snags along the way which is what Anorthernguard was saying

 

[ANorthernGuard]

well yer there is no requirement to locally control LC's or see the train out of section any more , there is no safety case for a signaller to be able to see a railway from his window

but that doesnt mean the transition isnt going to take time and encounter a number of snags along the way which is what Anorthernguard was saying

Thankyou Muz someone who has figured out what I am saying lol

 

[Moonshot]

well yer there is no requirement to locally control LC's or see the train out of section any more , there is no safety case for a signaller to be able to see a railway from his window

but that doesnt mean the transition isnt going to take time and encounter a number of snags along the way which is what Anorthernguard was saying

And.....?

 

[muz379]

And nothing , thats kind of the point Anorthern guard was making

all technical advances will come with their snags when implementing them and your getting excited about ashburys when it is nowhere near fully operational is a bit premature

 

[Moonshot]

And nothing , thats kind of the point Anorthern guard was making

all technical advances will come with their snags when implementing them and your getting excited about ashburys when it is nowhere near fully operational is a bit premature

Im not getting excited about anything......I m simply pointing out what is happening on the ground now.....and what it implies for the future.

 

[wigwamman]

I was under the impression that any new or future DOO schemes had to be operated by in cab monitor or CCTV cameras ?

An outgoing Northernrail director told me only two weeks ago that DOO was years away on the Northern Network.

 

[muz379]

whats going to be happening on the ground for a looooooong time before the whole of the NW is controlled from ashburys

 

[Moonshot]

whats going to be happening on the ground for a looooooong time before the whole of the NW is controlled from ashburys

I never said it wasnt.....but as I have stated already , the first signal box to be controlled from here is Huyton - timed for some point in July.

 

[muz379]

and ?

a few more weeks apparently the 23rd

 

[Tomnick]

Like I said, its already happening ......a brand new state of the art building for signalling is already built and nearly ready to use. Whats happened in the past is frankly ...the past.

Meanwhile, elsewhere in the country, the new ROC is already in work (and has been for a few years now) and at least one resignalling scheme in the area (AB to TCB) looks almost certain to be postponed by several years, and beyond the current control period, seemingly because the cost can't be justified. If it ain't broke...!

 

[Moonshot]

Meanwhile, elsewhere in the country, the new ROC is already in work (and has been for a few years now) and at least one resignalling scheme in the area (AB to TCB) looks almost certain to be postponed by several years, and beyond the current control period, seemingly because the cost can't be justified. If it ain't broke...!

But signalling ( like tha railway in general ) isnt broke.......however, much can be improved in the way of efficiency. Getting rid of old fashioned signal boxes and reducing the numbers of signallers required to operate the network is the right thing to do.

 

[Tomnick]

Yet it's not happening (for now) in at least one area, because (apparently) the cost of the investment necessary to achieve these efficiencies can't be justified.

 

[muz379]

But signalling ( like tha railway in general ) isnt broke.......however, much can be improved in the way of efficiency. Getting rid of old fashioned signal boxes and reducing the numbers of signallers required to operate the network is the right thing to do.

well you certainly dont like other people having jobs do you , got my suspicions that you are a troll tbh

What are your long term career plans then ? Hopefully nothing a robot or efficiency could do away with ?

I should have become a lawyer , are lawyers okay ? or could a more efficient robotic court system do away with those as well ?

 

[Moonshot]

Yet it's not happening (for now) in at least one area, because (apparently) the cost of the investment necessary to achieve these efficiencies can't be justified.

Which may or may not be true.......but going back to the prospectuses highlighted as the topic of this thread, a recurring theme through each of them is the requirement to operate with a reduced cost base and greater operating efficiencies.

 

[313103]

I know what lets have one signalling centre to control the whole network, lets take all the Guards off all the trains, where possible automate all the trains so as to dispense with drivers, close all ticket offices, dispense with all train dispatchers. The only staff that need to be kept are of course the cleaners, however they will not be paid to do the work, these jobs would be done by the Naughty Boy squad. There would be no need for catering as all the major stations will be glorified shopping centre's. That should get rid of at least half of the railway workforce.

That then leaves the Management and what should we do with them, after all the railway cant run without them.

Some would say I haven't gone far enough, I will just say that is for starters.

 

[ilkestonian]

Which may or may not be true.......but going back to the prospectuses highlighted as the topic of this thread, a recurring theme through each of them is the requirement to operate with a reduced cost base and greater operating efficiencies.

But sometimes, technology costs more than people.

And your faith in Network Rail's ability to deliver it's plans on time and more crucially, on budget, is somewhat greater than current evidence suggests is warranted, IMHO.

 

[Moonshot]

But sometimes, technology costs more than people.

And your faith in Network Rail's ability to deliver it's plans on time and more crucially, on budget, is somewhat greater than current evidence suggests is warranted, IMHO.

I ve never mentioned anything about Network Rails ability to deliver its plans on time and on budget......I ve simply pointed out what is happening de facto.....

 

[ilkestonian]

I ve never mentioned anything about Network Rails ability to deliver its plans on time and on budget......I ve simply pointed out what is happening de facto.....

I thought you were quoting what was supposed to happen, and that it was unquestionably a good thing?

And I haven't seen an answer to the question I posed earlier regarding your assertion that the cold hard fact is that DOO brings no increase in the risk factor?

 

[Moonshot]

I thought you were quoting what was supposed to happen, and that it was unquestionably a good thing?

And I haven't seen an answer to the question I posed earlier regarding your assertion that the cold hard fact is that DOO brings no increase in the risk factor?

Like I said, I never mentioned Network Rails ability.....

If DOO brought an increase in risk - it wouldnt get accepted in this industry ..I happen to work in it. Rail safety is at an all time high.....

 

[A-driver]

I thought you were quoting what was supposed to happen, and that it was unquestionably a good thing?



And I haven't seen an answer to the question I posed earlier regarding your assertion that the cold hard fact is that DOO brings no increase in the risk factor?

Are people on here still seriously claiming that DOO is no more risky than guard worked trains? I have never heard such rubbish.

At my company stop shorts and wrong side releases are very common. And in a few recent incidents people jumped from trains not platformed onto the ballast. My company is 100% DOO.

Stop shorts and wrong side releases are both incidents almost exclusive to DOO. And both pose a very real risk to public safety. The industry recognises that spads, whilst serious, are rarely dangerous. Passing a red signal by half a coach length is unlikely to harm anyone. Stopping short or wrong side releasing is highly likely to see people falling or jumping out risking injury or worse. They are the most dangerous incidents on the railway.

Infact the industry recognises that DOO has risks. Certain departments in the ORR are petrified of the dangers of DOO. A certain DOO toc was recently threatened with having its DOO licence withdrawn due to the worryingly high number of dispatch and PTI incidents. Quite what that would have led to in reality is anyone's guess but serious threats were made and the company concerned took it very, very seriously.

But DOO is still seen as cheaper. It's far from the cost saving measure it appears to be but the railway is obsessed by saving with the left hand but indirectly spending even more with the right.

And of course the big pull factor to DOO is an anti-union government spoiling for a fight. And sadly people can be thick enough to believe that cutting down on guards will mean their ticket prices drop!