DOO on Northern and general discussion on future staffing arrangements

[Moonshot]

Do you think the company gives guards 5% commission of its own free will? Or would you acknowledge that that is something that trade unions negotiated for the benefit if their members?

No idea who negotiated it......but incentives exist in Companies where trade unions dont exist anyway. Im certain the Unions had no input into the likes of Stagecoach and First Group offering their staff share options as they are a big part of free market enterprises anyway

 

[muz379]

Do you think the company gives guards 5% commission of its own free will? Or would you acknowledge that that is something that trade unions negotiated for the benefit if their members?

i was under the impression that northers 5% was higher than at other tocs as well

 

[Llama]

So do you think G4S / whatever they are called this week get 5% commission?

 

[wigwamman]

Are you in the Union Moonshot, and if so Why ?

 

[Moonshot]

would you want to be paid minimum wage to do just the tickets but with no safety responsibility ?

Nope but then again neither would you.....and there is nothing to stop anyone on minimum wage applying for better paid roles .....
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So do you think G4S / whatever they are called this week get 5% commission?

I ve no idea ....do they ?

 

[muz379]

Nope but then again neither would you.....and there is nothing to stop anyone on minimum wage applying for better paid roles .....
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I ve no idea ....do they ?

oh same old stupid right wing rhetoric - apply for better paid roles . Some people cant get better paid roles because they lack qualifications
or relevant experience . And sometimes better paid roles aren't available .

I have worked for minimum wage before . straight out of uni I had to take a job somewhere to make ends meet .The hours and work were many times more strenuous than the work a guard does . It was horrible and nobody should be forced into that situation . everybody should get a fair wage for the work they do enough so that they can afford to live which is something unions across all industries rightly campaign for .

 

[Llama]

I ve no idea ....do they ?

What if I told you they don't, because they don't have adequate representation by a trade union? And when you see them sitting in store rooms and on that little table outside the toilets having their bare minimum break, that is because they are again underrepresented and haven't actually been given proper facilities to take meal breaks?

 

[muz379]

What if I told you they don't, because they don't have adequate representation by a trade union? And when you see them sitting in store rooms and on that little table outside the toilets having their bare minimum break, that is because they are again underrepresented and haven't actually been given proper facilities to take meal breaks?

this 110% .

I worked for a company for a while that didnt recognize a trade union . And after a short while working for that company it became very apparent why they didnt recognize a union


that company also subcontracted security to another company , and I actually witnessed that company bullying said security guard because he was on a zero hour contract and couldn't afford to kick up a fuss about what was being done to him . He also couldnt afford to take a day off to "apply for a better paid role" let alone have an interview for another job because if he refused to do their overtime he lost all of his hours for two weeks as a "punishment"

 

[wigwamman]

I've always said there is nothing worse than a right wing railwayman/woman.

 

[Moonshot]

What if I told you they don't, because they don't have adequate representation by a trade union? And when you see them sitting in store rooms and on that little table outside the toilets having their bare minimum break, that is because they are again underrepresented and haven't actually been given proper facilities to take meal breaks?

Which they were aware of before they applied ..... how many of these staff have applied and been successful for roles as guards ? I know of 2 myself.

 

[muz379]

Which they were aware of before they applied ..... how many of these staff have applied and been successful for roles as guards ? I know of 2 myself.

Oh so they where aware that the choice was between working on a zero hour contract job for minimum wage having meals breaks in a store cupboard out of the way of "proper railway staff" or having their job seekers allowance docked for refusing to take a job ? some choice they had there then .

and what if I told you there is only a finite number of guards jobs so not all of them can become guards ?

but oh wow 2 out of how many have become guards

 

[Moonshot]

Isnt it true that none other than Ed Balls was under fire earlier on this week for employing staff on zero hour contracts ??

 

[muz379]

Isnt it true that none other than Ed Balls was under fire earlier on this week for employing staff on zero hour contracts ??

who said I supported labor or ed balls ? such a typical entrenched political outlook on things quick someone is criticizing me for being right wing oh look the other way there is scandal over there to .

 

[Moonshot]

who said I supported labor or ed balls ? such a typical entrenched political outlook on things quick someone is criticizing me for being right wing oh look the other way there is scandal over there to .

I never said you did......i simply pointed out that, allegedly, Ed Balls has been employing staff on zero hour contracts. So your not a labour supporter then ?

 

[muz379]

ed balls employing people on zero hour contracts is not the point here .

The point is the people you think had a choice in taking the job that they currently do didn't actually have a choice . How is it fair that we are throwing people off the dole and onto zero hour contract minimum wage jobs where they cant even guarantee a level of income the same as people on the dole .

Yes some of them might be looking for better paid positions but it doesn't happen overnight and in the meantime they deserve the right to be paid a fair wage for a days work . and be guaranteed a minimum number of hours so they can afford to live .

The RMT are campaigning against these minimum wage zero hour employers that northern subcontract to for your benefit because one day in the future you might not meet the medical standards to be a driver or a guard . And rather than making you redundant because there is nothing for you to do northern could offer you a job as a non safety crit member of staff like an rpi . instead currently these jobs are subcontracted out to the lowest possible bidder .

 

[Llama]

Which they were aware of before they applied ..... how many of these staff have applied and been successful for roles as guards ? I know of 2 myself.

So they would have been shown the boiler room under the stairs which, even though they are not allowed in there, turns out to be the only quiet place they have found to take their meal break, before they started their employment?

And of those two who have recently successfully applied for conductor positions, do you think they will be appreciative that they now have somewhere to take their official meal break, that has adequate seating for the depot establishment, is cleaned regularly and has cooking appliances, a fridge, a tv, heating and air conditioning, a dedicated quiet room, they have free lockers to store their belongings, free parking in a secure car park for their vehicle, travel benefits, representation by trained and experienced union officials and a recognised union health and safety rep?

 

[muz379]

I never said you did......i simply pointed out that, allegedly, Ed Balls has been employing staff on zero hour contracts. So your not a labour supporter then ?

Im not a labour supporter no . I dont really subscribe to everything one party says , I studied some politics amongst other things whilst at uni so have become far too analytical in my thoughts towards political parties policies .


For someone that enjoys the fact that working Sundays is voluntary you sure dont half have a short memory when it comes to who has negotiated that benefit on your behalf

 

[Moonshot]

ed balls employing people on zero hour contracts is not the point here .

The point is the people you think had a choice in taking the job that they currently do didn't actually have a choice . How is it fair that we are throwing people off the dole and onto zero hour contract minimum wage jobs where they cant even guarantee a level of income the same as people on the dole .

Yes some of them might be looking for better paid positions but it doesn't happen overnight and in the meantime they deserve the right to be paid a fair wage for a days work . and be guaranteed a minimum number of hours so they can afford to live .

The RMT are campaigning against these minimum wage zero hour employers that northern subcontract to for your benefit because one day in the future you might not meet the medical standards to be a driver or a guard . And rather than making you redundant because there is nothing for you to do northern could offer you a job as a non safety crit member of staff like an rpi . instead currently these jobs are subcontracted out to the lowest possible bidder .

It was you who mentioned zero hour contracts in the first place....i just simply added to that by mentioning someone in political circles who is allegedley using them.....if it had been George Osborne , I would have mentioned that as well. I personally dont like any politician.....I have never voted in my life for anyone
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So they would have been shown the boiler room under the stairs which, even though they are not allowed in there, turns out to be the only quiet place they have found to take their meal break, before they started their employment?

And of those two who have recently successfully applied for conductor positions, do you think they will be appreciative that they now have somewhere to take their official meal break, that has adequate seating for the depot establishment, is cleaned regularly and has cooking appliances, a fridge, a tv, heating and air conditioning, a dedicated quiet room, they have free lockers to store their belongings, free parking in a secure car park for their vehicle, travel benefits, representation by trained and experienced union officials and a recognised union health and safety rep?

Which are not benefits unique to businesses with recognised trade unions....

 

[muz379]

It was you who mentioned zero hour contracts in the first place....i just simply added to that by mentioning someone in political circles who is allegedley using them.....if it had been George Osborne , I would have mentioned that as well. I personally dont like any politician.....I have never voted in my life for anyone

The relevance of someone in political circles doing it being ?Funny how you have no dropped being right wing . I have no doubt that a lot of front bench politicians could be implicated in this . but we were not talking about them . what we were talking about was our employer using zero hour contracts . and you somehow thinking that there was a credible choice between lessening amounts of dole for refusing to accept a job and working for min wage on a zero hour contract .
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It was you who mentioned zero hour contracts in the first place....i just simply added to that by mentioning someone in political circles who is allegedley using them.....if it had been George Osborne , I would have mentioned that as well. I personally dont like any politician.....I have never voted in my life for anyone
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Which are not benefits unique to businesses with recognised trade unions....

it is widely known that pay and conditions are measurably better in workplaces with unions when we are talking about unskilled or skilled manual labour

 

[Llama]

No, but I happen to be one of the people who knows first hand by whom, how and when such benefits were negotiated, and what the state of affairs was beforehand.

 

[Moonshot]

The relevance of someone in political circles doing it being ?Funny how you have no dropped being right wing . I have no doubt that a lot of front bench politicians could be implicated in this . but we were not talking about them . what we were talking about was our employer using zero hour contracts . and you somehow thinking that there was a credible choice between lessening amounts of dole for refusing to accept a job and working for min wage on a zero hour contract .

Where did I say i was right wing ? I ve no doubt politicians could be implicated in lots ot other things as well - expenses scandals spring to mind. I d rather we didnt have politicians at all......but thats unlikely to happen, though I would subscribe to a view of minimal state influence on every day lives.

 

[muz379]

No, but I happen to be one of the people who knows first hand by whom, how and when such benefits were negotiated, and what the state of affairs was beforehand.

i dont have any experience first hand of the state of affairs before this but even I have read enough to know that we have a lot to thank unions for in this day and age as I said earlier

 

[Moonshot]

The relevance of someone in political circles doing it being ?Funny how you have no dropped being right wing . I have no doubt that a lot of front bench politicians could be implicated in this . but we were not talking about them . what we were talking about was our employer using zero hour contracts . and you somehow thinking that there was a credible choice between lessening amounts of dole for refusing to accept a job and working for min wage on a zero hour contract .
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it is widely known that pay and conditions are measurably better in workplaces with unions when we are talking about unskilled or skilled manual labour[/QUOTE]

So why do trade unions get such a bad press then ?

 

[Llama]

My reply was to Moonshot, crossed wires I think.

 

[muz379]

Where did I say i was right wing ? I ve no doubt politicians could be implicated in lots ot other things as well - expenses scandals spring to mind. I d rather we didnt have politicians at all......but thats unlikely to happen, though I would subscribe to a view of minimal state influence on every day lives.

Well your opinions on unions . Your opinions on people being makers of their own destiny in terms of being able to apply for higher paid positions , your opinions on minimal stage influence and your mentioning of free market capitalism are all markers of the right wing mind .

 

[Moonshot]

i dont have any experience first hand of the state of affairs before this but even I have read enough to know that we have a lot to thank unions for in this day and age as I said earlier

I dare say we do.....but then we also have a lot to thank for from the likes of Emily Pankhurst and Richard Cobden
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Well your opinions on unions . Your opinions on people being makers of their own destiny in terms of being able to apply for higher paid positions , your opinions on minimal stage influence and your mentioning of free market capitalism are all markers of the right wing mind .

I ve never thought of it in those terms ....like I said, I hate politics and have never voted in my life. But I do remember what the extremes of trade unionism can do to society in general such as the winter of discontent in the 70s and the miners strike in the early 80s.....

 

[muz379]

The relevance of someone in political circles doing it being ?Funny how you have no dropped being right wing . I have no doubt that a lot of front bench politicians could be implicated in this . but we were not talking about them . what we were talking about was our employer using zero hour contracts . and you somehow thinking that there was a credible choice between lessening amounts of dole for refusing to accept a job and working for min wage on a zero hour contract .
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it is widely known that pay and conditions are measurably better in workplaces with unions when we are talking about unskilled or skilled manual labour[/QUOTE]

So why do trade unions get such a bad press then ?

Ive seen a lot of good press for the FBU surrounding the pension proposals that are leading to them strikes

but you do have some in the right wing media who dont like to see unskilled and skilled manual workers doing better for themselves through advancing their pay and conditions of employment

its come to something when railway employees are getting criticized for wanting basic things like a pay rise in line with inflation . Anything less than a pay rise in line with inflation is a real terms cut .

who is going to just sit there and accept a pay cut . Well those without representation to start with .

My reply was to Moonshot, crossed wires I think.

Oh No I wasnt having a go , was just saying its obvious to even people that havent experienced times before we have a lot to thank unions for .

I ve never thought of it in those terms ....like I said, I hate politics and have never voted in my life. But I do remember what the extremes of trade unionism can do to society in general such as the winter of discontent in the 70s and the miners strike in the early 80s.....

Unions have a lot less power now than they did then . But bear in mind as with any future strike that may occur there are two sides to every story .

 

[Moonshot]

ts come to something when railway employees are getting criticized for wanting basic things like a pay rise in line with inflation . Anything less than a pay rise in line with inflation is a complete a real terms cut . who is going to just sit there and accept a pay cut . Well those without representation to start with

isnt it true that Public Sector employees are having pay freezes imposed on them ? Do they not have trade union representation ?

 

[Carlisle]

I would say by the end of the next franchise ( 2024-2026) Guards will be gone more or less on the Northern franchise, once the 15x and 14x stock is life expired I think the traditional role of Guard will be finished, sadly.

Hasn't Irish Rail largely adopted the above changes as a couple of recent journeys on their DMUs my ticket was checked by on train staff but they did not appear to have dispatch duties

 

[muz379]

ts come to something when railway employees are getting criticized for wanting basic things like a pay rise in line with inflation . Anything less than a pay rise in line with inflation is a complete a real terms cut . who is going to just sit there and accept a pay cut . Well those without representation to start with

isnt it true that Public Sector employees are having pay freezes imposed on them ? Do they not have trade union representation ?

I believe they are having real terms freezes imposed , which means their pay rises are limited to 1% which is a little less than inflation .

and look at how many marches and protests have taken place . as well as teachers striking in rows over pay and pensions .Nurses came close to striking for the first time ever ,and civil servants have been on strike they arent just sitting back and taking it . But with essential services like teaching and the NHS they understand they cant bring these services to their knees either .

Everybody claims railway staff have got it dead easy in terms of getting decent payrises but before you came to the role many benefits like bank holidays being optional where "sold" so that payrises could still go ahead . So its not like railway staff have earned payrises for nothing they have had to sell long recognized benefits for them .