Driver Only Operated Trains

[455driver]

Not on the "big" railway, pretty much all the systems converted to DOO are straight forward systems with few junctions and standard train sets, TOCs dont run standard train sets and the track layout is a lot more complicated.

Building a new line to be automatic is easier than converting an existing one even where the trains are all the same.

 

[TheEdge]

But surely the railways are a very logical system, exactly what computers are good at. Yes the big railway is more complex but a computer is not really flummoxed by complex.

Compared to things computers do do now a railway is not complex. Like I said, Railworks can signal a railway and run trains and it is a game, a proper custom built system would be able to do it.

 

[bronzeonion]

Here is something that I talked about with someone at work.

GOO.

Guard Only Operation. All over the world railway systems are being automated and the driver is disappearing. Look at the DLR, driverless but with on board staff. According to Wiki the Victoria, Central and Jubilee drive themselves with the 'driver' opening the doors. All over the world there are rail systems without drivers.

IMO it is more likely we will see the driver consigned to history, even a proprietary sim like Railworks can understand how to keep trains apart so a specifically built computer system would be able to do it and arguably safer than a human at the controls and the guard continue to exist either overseeing safety at the interface or simply there in a customer service role.

Oh god no!!

 

[Cherry_Picker]

It will happen eventually. As long as they leave it for about 20 years I'll be fine.

 

[millemille]

So what are people's objections to DOO?

 

[Aictos]

So what are people's objections to DOO?

I don't like it as its a lack of staff visibility on DOO trains compared to non DOO trains as there's only one member of staff ie driver and this isn't acceptable to me.

I much prefer to have a guard to do customer service, revenue protection and look after their passengers while the driver drives the train and deals with the any problems that may arise ie a train faults etc...

If guards are not viable then least have ticket examiners as the second member of staff like SPT services do least it will increase staff visibility greatly.

 

[pompeyfan]

Going on the suggestion and discussion of GOO, it wouldn't work because there are too man variables, for example, what if a car or lorry or tree is blocking the line, you need someone in the cab that can hit the big red button should there be an external issue, you also need someone who can drive the train should the system go belly up as redundancy...so you'd still have to train someone up to be competent... Like Jeremy clarkson pointed out once... More accidents have happened on planes through pilot intervention then ones running on auto pilot, and that 90% of the flying is done by autopilot... However, would you step on a plane with no one in the cockpit?

 

[Goldfish62]

There is the problem, stop at the wrong car mark and the rear doors/ coaches are off the end of the platform and there isnt a guard to pick it up.

Full guard control for me (without all the wishy washy bull) can be just as fast (and possibly safer) than driver open/ guard close.

The Southern 377s have ASDO so that can't happen. I've seen an SWT 458 overshoot a platform by a carriage, but the guard still released the doors as from half-way down the platform it wasn't apparent there was an overshoot.

SWT are now installing ridiculously large and crude CCTV cabinets all along the platforms at Windsor lines stations for the 458/5s, to enable the guards to see with the extra length of the trains. This seems an odd decision as they're fitted with ASDO so the driver could release the doors without any risk of part of the train not being on the platform.

Overall I would have thought that full DOO with ASDO (which includes right-side door enable) and in-cab CCTV, which remains on as the train is pulling out, must be the safest method of operation.

 

[NSEFAN]

Going on the suggestion and discussion of GOO, it wouldn't work because there are too man variables, for example, what if a car or lorry or tree is blocking the line, you need someone in the cab that can hit the big red button should there be an external issue, you also need someone who can drive the train should the system go belly up as redundancy...so you'd still have to train someone up to be competent... Like Jeremy clarkson pointed out once... More accidents have happened on planes through pilot intervention then ones running on auto pilot, and that 90% of the flying is done by autopilot... However, would you step on a plane with no one in the cockpit?

You'd probably want a system like that which exists on the DLR. The trains have a conductor on board who can drive, but most of the time doesn't. Systems like the Underground tend to work in more controlled environments so it is simpler to get ATO working.

I reckon the big railway will eventually make the move to ATO too as obstacle detection gets better. New lines like HS2 will almost certainly have it, but I doubt that retro-fitting to classic lines is worth the cost and hassle of installation (for now at least).

 

[TheEdge]

Going on the suggestion and discussion of GOO, it wouldn't work because there are too man variables, for example, what if a car or lorry or tree is blocking the line, you need someone in the cab that can hit the big red button should there be an external issue, you also need someone who can drive the train should the system go belly up as redundancy...so you'd still have to train someone up to be competent... Like Jeremy clarkson pointed out once... More accidents have happened on planes through pilot intervention then ones running on auto pilot, and that 90% of the flying is done by autopilot... However, would you step on a plane with no one in the cockpit?

Look at the car industry. There are big inroads (groan) into driverless cars which use clever radar systems as a collision avoidance system, and there are a damn sight more variables on the road than on the railway. The Breckland Line now has crossings which wont clear until the radar on the crossing has confirmed there is no vehicle. Collision detection and obstacle detection is not something impossible.

Now I'm not saying this is going to happen overnight but continuing on the plane analogy in WWII the Luftwaffe had a system where their bombers could follow radio signal beams to guide them to British cities, now we have modern airliners that all but fly themselves. Just because it can't happen now doesn't mean it wont.

 

[millemille]

I don't like it as its a lack of staff visibility on DOO trains compared to non DOO trains as there's only one member of staff ie driver and this isn't acceptable to me.

And why don't you like it?

What facts or figures have you reviewed to form your dislike and declare that DOO is unacceptable?

 

[Monty]

SWT are now installing ridiculously large and crude CCTV cabinets all along the platforms at Windsor lines stations for the 458/5s, to enable the guards to see with the extra length of the trains. This seems an odd decision as they're fitted with ASDO so the driver could release the doors without any risk of part of the train not being on the platform.

The 458s don't have ASDO yet, but should do within this year. But then again with the delays in the rebuilding program I could this being pushed back to 2014. Even with ASDO the guard will still need to check check that the train is fully accommodated as the system SWT uses track beacons and not GPS (like Southern if I am not mistaken?) and there is still risk of doors on carriages that are not accommodated on the platform being released in the event of a stop short or overshoot. The CCTV also aids the guard when dispatching the train to make sure there are no more passengers boarding or alighting from the train.

 

[jopsuk]

The "guard as security" argument falls apart a little on formations of two or three units with no inter-unit corridor connector.

 

[Goldfish62]

The 458s don't have ASDO yet, but should do within this year. But then again with the delays in the rebuilding program I could this being pushed back to 2014. Even with ASDO the guard will still need to check check that the train is fully accommodated as the system SWT uses track beacons and not GPS (like Southern if I am not mistaken?) and there is still risk of doors on carriages that are not accommodated on the platform being released in the event of a stop short or overshoot. The CCTV also aids the guard when dispatching the train to make sure there are no more passengers boarding or alighting from the train.

I don't understand - how can it be possible that doors off platforms can still be released with ASDO? What is the point of it then? I think you're wrong, with respect. As I understand it, if any doors are off the platform, ASDO will not allow the doors of that carriage to be released.

Southern use GPS, SWT will use beacons - different technology, but the outcome is identical. The systems prevent door release for doors off the platform - intentional or otherwise.

Also, ASDO will be active on the 458/5s when they enter traffic from this summer, not 2014 - there are a considerable number of short platforms they will serve which need the system operational.

On the CCTV that SWT are installing, why is it so crude and intrusive on the platforms? Even the original DOO screens that LUL installed in the 1980s were better designed!

 

[pompeyfan]

No disrespect goldfish, but I'd like to think monty knows what he's on about. As a guard for SWT, you'd hope he knows more then the average joe... As far as I know, ASDO works using a database with how many carriages to release should the train stop in the correct position.

 

[pendolino]

There is the problem, stop at the wrong car mark and the rear doors/ coaches are off the end of the platform and there isnt a guard to pick it up.

The Southern 377s have ASDO so that can't happen.

Yes it can - and does. Stop at the 4 car mark with an 8 car train and 4 coaches will be off the platform. But the SDO doesn't know that the train is at the 4 car mark, it only knows it is within the GPS 'cloud' for that location, and if the database says it's, for example, a 7 car platform, then all doors bar the last coach will be released - with 3 sets of released doors off the platform.

 

[9K43]

My recall of DOO was one of ASLEF's move to get £8 per shift to go without a guard.
ASLEF in my view will do anything to get more money, no matter who got made redundant.
They would collude with management, and they never bothered about those who lost thier jobs.
It was an attitude that I'm all right jack and sod any one else.
I speak from bitter experiance of the first DOO train at Healey mills was October 1988., when a driver call Don Guy worked the first DOO train from the Mill to Toton and back again.
As far as I know ASLEF are still the same.

 

[jon91]

Compared to things computers do do now a railway is not complex. Like I said, Railworks can signal a railway and run trains and it is a game, a proper custom built system would be able to do it.

The idea that TS2013/Railworks signals a railway is laughable, speaking as someone who has had to put up with the quite frankly sh** signal scripts since RW2, the signalling is extremely basic (panicking whenever two trains need to use a section of single line) and the AI dispatcher couldn't organise a p***-up in a brewery.

All Railworks can deal with is scripted events, and very shoddily at that, if it had to handle random events you'd end up with a hole in your hard drive where TS2013 used to reside.

 

[northwichcat]

As far as I can see DOO trains only benefit the TOC and no one else.

Well no. Trains get cancelled due to no guard being available so I think most passengers would prefer a train with no guard to no train at all.

Am I right in thinking a train where the driver releases and closes the doors but has a ticket inspector on board is still classed as DOO? If so that also has an advantage to the passengers in that frequently on Northern services the train gets delayed because the guard is slow to get back to release the doors after carrying out revenue duties.

I do however think a train where the driver is the only staff member on board is only practical on lines where every station is staffed to ensure that assistance is available in particular for disabled passengers.

 

[millemille]

It would cost the TOC I work for ~£45M per year in additional wage bill and overheads to run every train with a guard on board.

Would they get a £45M improvement in safety and revenue as a result?

No.

 

[jopsuk]

I do however think a train where the driver is the only staff member on board is only practical on lines where every station is staffed to ensure that assistance is available in particular for disabled passengers.

Both Cambridge-London lines are DOO and have been for a long time. Many of stations have very limited staffing- typically weekday mornings.

 

[notadriver]

How about the Javelin trains ? While technically run as DOO, all services must have an on board manager that is paid more than a conductor. This is probably the the best example I can think of where a second member of staff was always going to be on board.

 

[Mojo]

How about the Javelin trains ? While technically run as DOO, all services must have an on board manager that is paid more than a conductor. This is probably the the best example I can think of where a second member of staff was always going to be on board.

And a forum member told me that a train was cancelled the other week because of no OBM being available. Conversely my understanding of the Strathclyde Manning Agreement is that trains on the Glasgow Electric suburban network can run if no TE is available.

 

[bronzeonion]

Scenario:

The 17:30 DOO rush hour service calling at all stations to Welwyn Garden City departs Kings Cross packed to the brim with commuters. Further along the line some vandals have laid a short piece of rail accross the 4 foot ontop of the rails. It is foggy and dark but the driver spots the rail last second and applies the emergency brakes knowing that will not stop the accident. The front of the train collides with an embankment wall killing the driver and the rest of the train derails and is in danger of being crashed into by a passing train on the other line. The passengers for the majority are alive but many are uncouncious and some are seriously injured from where they have been crushed by people, breaking bones etc. The passengers who are mainly uninjured naturally try to flee the scene and whilst doing so are limping accross the other lines trying to get away from the scene and find help. Meanwhile the still uncouncious or seriously injured passengers who are now unable to move due to serious injury are still in the wreckage and a fire breaks out. By now the emergency services have arrived and hopefully some emergency reponse units from the railway too.

If there was a guard on the train in that scenario the emergency services and control would have been alerted much quicker and the adjecent lines would be blocked preventing another collision or at least lessening the risk of another collision by a huge amount.

Unfortunately it will take a fatal accident to have DOO looked at properly, till then may the unsafe money saving method continue.

 

[GadgetMan]

It would cost the TOC I work for ~£45M per year in additional wage bill and overheads to run every train with a guard on board.

Would they get a £45M improvement in safety and revenue as a result?

No.

Introducing Guards on sections that are already DOO may not make financial sense. But doing away with Guards where they currently exist will not bring a financial saving without making other large investments installing TVMs, barriers and employing barrier staff. I collect on average 3 x my wages every month in revenue, the majority of that is from manned stations where people only pay when challenged even after being reminded of their responsibilities on numerous occasions.

So as far as I'm concerned I don't cost my TOC any money even after taking into account other costs like supplying uniform and having Guard's managers.

 

[RPM]

Am I right in thinking a train where the driver releases and closes the doors but has a ticket inspector on board is still classed as DOO? If so that also has an advantage to the passengers in that frequently on Northern services the train gets delayed because the guard is slow to get back to release the doors after carrying out revenue duties.

It's complicated. Different methods of working apply in different areas.

A ticket inspector may or may not also be a guard. A ticket inspector might travel on a DOO train but the train is still DOO (i.e. the driver remains in charge of the platform/train interface).

For example Chiltern services operated by class 165/168/172 units operate with a guard north of Banbury but switch to DOO mode south of Banbury. Sometimes for operational reasons the guard stays on board south of Banbury but he/she is no longer acting in the capacity of a guard from that point. Additionally, because the cabs are set up for DOO the drivers operate the doors even when north of Banbury, but the signal to close doors and the right away signal are given to the driver by the guard via the bell/buzzer system.

 

[GadgetMan]

Scenario:

The 17:30 DOO rush hour service calling at all stations to Welwyn Garden City departs Kings Cross packed to the brim with commuters. Further along the line some vandals have laid a short piece of rail accross the 4 foot ontop of the rails. It is foggy and dark but the driver spots the rail last second and applies the emergency brakes knowing that will not stop the accident. The front of the train collides with an embankment wall killing the driver and the rest of the train derails and is in danger of being crashed into by a passing train on the other line. The passengers for the majority are alive but many are uncouncious and some are seriously injured from where they have been crushed by people, breaking bones etc. The passengers who are mainly uninjured naturally try to flee the scene and whilst doing so are limping accross the other lines trying to get away from the scene and find help. Meanwhile the still uncouncious or seriously injured passengers who are now unable to move due to serious injury are still in the wreckage and a fire breaks out. By now the emergency services have arrived and hopefully some emergency reponse units from the railway too.

If there was a guard on the train in that scenario the emergency services and control would have been alerted much quicker and the adjecent lines would be blocked preventing another collision or at least lessening the risk of another collision by a huge amount.

Unfortunately it will take a fatal accident to have DOO looked at properly, till then may the unsafe money saving method continue.

You'll get responses along the lines of;

How likely is it that would happen,
The Guard could also be killed/seriously injured and unable to help,
Passengers these days have mobile phones and using GPS can tell the emergency services where they are.......
A super duper computer on the train can make automatic calls to emergency services and give them a break down of exactly how many souls are on board and their invidual injuries as each carriage will be lined with millions of human scanners and x ray machine type sensors....

 

[bronzeonion]

Also in normal circumstances the passengers benefit from useful announcements made by the guard and the safer operation of doors.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You'll get responses along the lines of;

How likely is it that would happen,
The Guard could also be killed/seriously injured and unable to help,
Passengers these days have mobile phones and using GPS can tell the emergency services where they are.......
A super duper computer on the train can make automatic calls to emergency services and give them a break down of exactly how many souls are on board and their invidual injuries as each carriage will be lined with millions of human scanners and x ray machine type sensors....

It is unlikely to happen youre right but it can happen and rails accross the track has happened before!
You have double the chance of having a member of railway staff who knows what they're doing in these circumstances by having a guard.

 

[ainsworth74]

You'll get responses along the lines of

Along with answers like:

I'm not a fan, at all, of DOO as found on FCC and SE (et al) for the reasons outlined in that scenario and also just basic customer service. But where there is still a second member of train crew on board, such as with Strathcylde Scotrail services (which are DOO), then I'm less convinced by the arguments put forward by that scenario. As there would still be someone else on board to raise the alarm and deal with passengers.

 

[bronzeonion]

Along with answers like:

I'm not a fan, at all, of DOO as found on FCC and SE (et al) for the reasons outlined in that scenario and also just basic customer service. But where there is still a second member of train crew on board, such as with Strathcylde Scotrail services (which are DOO), then I'm less convinced by the arguments put forward by that scenario. As there would still be someone else on board to raise the alarm and deal with passengers.

That is true, but they are not trained to the same standard as a guard would be. And if they are they may as well do the doors and announcements too as the driver already has enough on his/her plate and door operation by the guard is safer anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How about the Javelin trains ? While technically run as DOO, all services must have an on board manager that is paid more than a conductor. This is probably the the best example I can think of where a second member of staff was always going to be on board.

This method makes no sense, someone who is of manager grade getting paid more than a traditional conductor/guard whatever you want to call them is always on board. It makes more financial sense (something the modern UK railway seems to love) to have an ordinary conductor/guard handling doors and announcements!