Driver training

[Intermodal]

Just to pick up on this point specifically. My understanding is that if you pass the first time, but fail to below national standard the second time, that’s game over.

Unless you are saying subsequent attempts don’t overwrite the first? If so, please can you provide some evidence?

You are incorrect. You are allowed to fail twice. After the 2nd fail, it's game over.

It's never been based on attempts. It's failures that count. Passes do not count at all towards lives.

You can pass three times and then fail, and you'd still have one life left.

 

[choochoochoo]

This document provides some insight. Essentially the ORR is a non ministerial government department - but there are regulations governing the testing, who can do it etc.

https://www.orr.gov.uk/sites/default/files/om/draft-train-driver-licences-training-and-examination-guide.pdf

That's an interesting document regarding testing centres.

However, whilst adopted industry-wide, I've still not located a document that specifically states you need to have passed these tests to undertake driver training and get a train driving licence. It's a bit like the 'pirate's code' - Merely guidelines.

 

[43066]

At no point was a practise at the tests mentioned within this thread.

To be clear the standard isn’t two attempts. It’s two failed attempts. If someone passed and then failed they would be able to sit the tests again.

Operators do not require a candidate to resit a test they have already passed. If the operator deems the amount of time since passing to be excessive, that is ultimately the operators decision.

As referenced earlier this debate has been done for years in numerous threads. We will not debate it as this would be advertising. We simply point out the standards, and incorrect statements regarding the process.

Wish you all good luck with your applications.

You are incorrect. You are allowed to fail twice. After the 2nd fail, it's game over.

It's never been based on attempts. It's failures that count. Passes do not count at all towards lives.

You can pass three times and then fail, and you'd still have one life left.

Ok - well if that is the case then I’m happy to admit that I’m wrong - but can we please have chapter and verse on that? In terms of some actual ORR/RSSB guidance/regs?

If we can iron it out, maybe it could be made a sticky thread, because this question has come up over and over for years, as you both say.

To be clear the standard isn’t two attempts. It’s two failed attempts. If someone passed and then failed they would be able to sit the tests again.

So if you passed to national standard at attempt one, and failed at your second attempt, you’d be allowed a further attempt?

I’m also aware of instances over the years where TOCs have split the tests, so that candidates might face the computer based tests then, assuming they passed, they would face the DMI. If they failed the DMI they wouldn’t be invited back to take the MMI. Would that count as a life lost?

Chapter and verse is needed please! @RCG is best placed to do the legwork to provide it, since he’s monetising it?

My advice stands - don’t pay for anything - simply apply to TOCs, read the practice materials, buy the book on the Group Bourdon test that helped me (if anyone wants to know which book, PM me and I’ll tell you).

It’s much easier just to pass at your first attempt and get the job for free.

That's an interesting document regarding testing centres.

However, whilst adopted industry-wide, I've still not located a document that specifically states you need to have passed these tests to undertake driver training and get a train driving licence. It's a bit like the 'pirate's code' - Merely guidelines.

I suggest you have a read of this. I’d like others to provide chapter and verse, and make their positions clear (I’ve already digested it, but I’m not earning any money by regurgitating it on here)...

The Train Driving Licences and Certificates Regulations 2010

These Regulations implement, for Great Britain, Directive 2007/59/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23rd October 2007 on “the certification of train drivers operating locomotives and trains on the railway system in the Community” (Official Journal No. L 315, 3.12.2007, p.51).

www.legislation.gov.uk

My personal view is that the tests should be more reflective of the job, and therefore made much tougher. One attempt. Fail that, you’re out on your rear end.

 

[Intermodal]

@43066 this document from the OPC explicitly states the two failures rule at the bottom, in the FAQ: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.theopc.co.uk/files/Train%20Driver%20Assessment%20Centre%20Guide%20(002).pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiFsruPov_sAhV-ShUIHVhXCroQFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw0--T4puKoOR9P7xDTlTn2k

Admittedly there is no mention that passes do not count towards "lives", but if this was not the case then surely it would be mentioned. I can assure you what myself and RCG are saying is the reality of the situation - sorry I can't find a direct rebuttal of your query but to be honest I've never heard your version of it before - it's always been my understanding that passes do not count and the lack of mention of passes in the OPC document seems to reinforce that.

As for failing a DMI, this categorically does not count as a 'life' as it isn't a psychometric test and as such wouldn't be recorded as failing one. I know drivers who have passed the tests and then failed as many as 5 DMIs who are now driving. Again, I can't provide any documentation of this but I can assure you it is the case.

 

[ComUtoR]

You are incorrect regarding only being allowed two attempts at the test if one is a pass. A candidate will only be unable to resit if they have failed the tests twice before. The tests are designed as a barrier for entry and therefore there are restrictions.

Your website specifically states that there is only a maximum 2 attempts. Pass/fail is not mentioned.

 

[Timpg]

I assume that you pay for the tests to gain national standard. A high majority of toc’s/foc’s have now adopted the ‘enhanced’ pass mark for entry to employment. So if you pay for your standard test passes, then apply for a company that requires an enhanced score. Your gambling not only your £500, but also one of your two lives.
A gamble I wouldn’t necessarily be willing to take, especially knowing that I’d still, more than likely, have to do further testing after paying for national standard testing!

 

[Lumpa6259]

I’m presuming that if you sit the test with a TOC who wants enhanced standard but only pass to the national standard then this wouldn’t class as a failure?

And does anyone know how different the enhanced standard is?

 

[Intermodal]

I’m presuming that if you sit the test with a TOC who wants enhanced standard but only pass to the national standard then this wouldn’t class as a failure?

And does anyone know how different the enhanced standard is?

Yes, if you take enhanced but do not meet it, but still pass to national standards in all tests then this is a pass, not a fail. Obviously you would not get whatever job you applied for that required enhanced, though.

The enhanced standard varies by TOC. To call it a standard is misleading - every TOC that requires enhanced sets their own parameters for it. An enhanced with one TOC may be no good for another.

 

[Lumpa6259]

Yes, if you take enhanced but do not meet it, but still pass to national standards in all tests then this is a pass, not a fail. Obviously you would not get whatever job you applied for that required enhanced, though.

The enhanced standard varies by TOC. To call it a standard is misleading - every TOC that requires enhanced sets their own parameters for it. An enhanced with one TOC may be no good for another.

Thank you. I must confess though that the shroud of secrecy about what the relevant pass marks and criteria is does worry me!!

 

[DA1]

Thank you. I must confess though that the shroud of secrecy about what the relevant pass marks and criteria is does worry me!!

Some also do extra tests. When I got my enhanced passes I not only had to up my national standard passes by completing certain tests again but I additionally had to complete the DFFT (Driver Fault Finding Test) and the VSE (Visual Search Exercise).

 

[Intermodal]

Thank you. I must confess though that the shroud of secrecy about what the relevant pass marks and criteria is does worry me!!

Even on the day you will get very limited feedback using specific phrases that they were trained to use. I remember being told I worked "quickly and accurately" several times in my feedback. At one point I asked if I had missed any dots in the group bourdon test and with a completely blank face I was just told again that I worked "quickly and accurately".

 

[Lumpa6259]

Even on the day you will get very limited feedback using specific phrases that they were trained to use. I remember being told I worked "quickly and accurately" several times in my feedback. At one point I asked if I had missed any dots in the group bourdon test and with a completely blank face I was just told again that I worked "quickly and accurately".

Ha... I have been practicing the bourdon tests at Metodorf.com and seem to be getting now to about 12 or 13 lines with no more than 3 errors across the 5 tests. Problem is, you never know if that is good enough or if you need to practice further etc!!!

 

[Intermodal]

Ha... I have been practicing the bourdon tests at Metodorf.com and seem to be getting now to about 12 or 13 lines with no more than 3 errors across the 5 tests. Problem is, you never know if that is good enough or if you need to practice further etc!!!

My advice to you would be to aim for zero errors. Slow down in your practice until you can make absolutely zero errors, and then work on your speed. This is critically important as if you did the whole sheet on the day and made 3 errors then it is potentially a fail. If you only did half the sheet and made 0 errors then it's quite likely you could pass. Both speed and accuracy are important, but accuracy more so.

You may have heard before, and it is true, that the real life GBT is easier than practice material. The test they give you on the assessment is absolutely huge and the groups of dots are quite large and also spaced further apart than most practice material. Sounds like you are on a good path to pass it. I personally was most worried about the GBT but on the day found it the easiest and I am fairly certain I didn't make a single mistake - just due to my level of practice.

Additionally I would strongly recommend printing out the tests and doing them on paper to practice. It's quite different to doing it on a computer and if the first time you do it on paper is in the test centre then you may struggle.

 

[Spincity]

At no point was a practise at the tests mentioned within this thread.

To be clear the standard isn’t two attempts. It’s two failed attempts. If someone passed and then failed they would be able to sit the tests again.

Operators do not require a candidate to resit a test they have already passed. If the operator deems the amount of time since passing to be excessive, that is ultimately the operators decision.

As referenced earlier this debate has been done for years in numerous threads. We will not debate it as this would be advertising. We simply point out the standards, and incorrect statements regarding the process.

Wish you all good luck with your applications.

Somewhat confused about the your website, it says valid for 5 years and valid for all TOCs.

With a number of Companies having higher standards and some only valid for 3 or so years how are results valid for all TOCs for 5 years?. Are you doing the extra tests that some require and do provide test results and scores

 

[43066]

@43066 this document from the OPC explicitly states the two failures rule at the bottom, in the FAQ: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.theopc.co.uk/files/Train%20Driver%20Assessment%20Centre%20Guide%20(002).pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiFsruPov_sAhV-ShUIHVhXCroQFjAAegQIAxAC&usg=AOvVaw0--T4puKoOR9P7xDTlTn2k

Admittedly there is no mention that passes do not count towards "lives", but if this was not the case then surely it would be mentioned. I can assure you what myself and RCG are saying is the reality of the situation - sorry I can't find a direct rebuttal of your query but to be honest I've never heard your version of it before - it's always been my understanding that passes do not count and the lack of mention of passes in the OPC document seems to reinforce that.

As for failing a DMI, this categorically does not count as a 'life' as it isn't a psychometric test and as such wouldn't be recorded as failing one. I know drivers who have passed the tests and then failed as many as 5 DMIs who are now driving. Again, I can't provide any documentation of this but I can assure you it is the case.

Thanks. I’m not sure we are any the wiser - it’s a mystery.

 

[Intermodal]

Thanks. I’m not sure we are any the wiser - it’s a mystery.

It's not a mystery - you can only fail twice. It's clearly stated in the document. You can pass as many times as you like. Just because a rule is not explicitly stated not to exist does not mean we can conclude if does.

 

[43066]

It's not a mystery - you can only fail twice. It's clearly stated in the document. You can pass as many times as you like. Just because a rule is not explicitly stated not to exist does not mean we can conclude if does.

That’s not been made clear above.

It’s a mystery to me how anyone can fail it the first time tbh.

 

[Intermodal]

That’s not been made clear above.

It’s a mystery to me how anyone can fail it the first time tbh.

Nobody needs to disprove something you've come up with. You need to prove it. I propose that the core of the Earth is made of melted cheese - please disprove this?

 

[choochoochoo]

I suggest you have a read of this. I’d like others to provide chapter and verse, and make their positions clear (I’ve already digested it, but I’m not earning any money by regurgitating it on here)...

The Train Driving Licences and Certificates Regulations 2010

These Regulations implement, for Great Britain, Directive 2007/59/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23rd October 2007 on “the certification of train drivers operating locomotives and trains on the railway system in the Community” (Official Journal No. L 315, 3.12.2007, p.51).

www.legislation.gov.uk

My personal view is that the tests should be more reflective of the job, and therefore made much tougher. One attempt. Fail that, you’re out on your rear end.

Interesting read, thanks.

Still doesn't say those particular tests are mandatory. It just says the content of the occupational psychological assessment is to determine that an applicant has no established occupational psychological deficiencies (particularly in operational aptitudes). [That may explain how those older drivers jumped through that requirement. Perhaps they just had a chat with an occupational psychologist ?]

So using that interpretation of the regulations it does seem technically possible to get a trainee position without taking those specific tests if a TOC/FOC really wanted you to be a driver. (Who knows, maybe if daddy/mummy/wifey/hubby are high ranking execs/board members for example).

It may just be that the industry has agreed to adopt a 'standard' set of tests, probably to make things easy from a recruitment standpoint.

 

[ainsworth74]

This thread got very fractious of late and as such has been subject to a major tidying by the Forum Staff. It is, however, now open again for any further comments.

On a general point I would just like to note that everyone is entitled to their opinion as to whether or not doing the tests privately is a waste of time/money, whether it is in someway cheating or trying to "buy a key" or alternatively a good idea that will help you get into a job and career that you want. And that is fine. This is a discussion forum it would be rather boring if we all agreed

However, I have to ask that all members keep in mind the Forum Rules in particular those under the heading of 'Respectful' and especially the requirements not to provoke other members and to respect each other. You are more than welcome to disagree, you are not welcome to post in a way which provokes, insults, belittles or is otherwise disrespectful.

I would also ask that members who see posts which cause them concern do not reply to those posts and instead report them to the Forum Staff using the report button (find at the bottom of every post). Doing so ensures that we see problems early and by not replying you avoid making the problem worse by causing further discussion and by creating more work for us to fix it once we do see the issue.

Finally, it might be worth everyone who comments on any thread to think before they post. Think about how their post is likely to be read, how someone else might read it, how they might then react. It is very easy to dash off a message with no thought when actually spending an extra thirty seconds can create a much more positive post leading to a better atmosphere and a higher quality of discussion.

Please keep the above points in mind and many thanks

ainsworth74

 

[S-Car-Go]

I've read this thread with intrigue. No one's mentioned what happens when they change the standards for the tests, which is what I experienced.

In 2010, I passed all the old tests at OCP except I failed the interview by 1 mark (it wasn't called MMI, but was broadly similar interview).

Was so gutted I didn't apply again until 2018 lol. I took the OCP tests, and when it came to the pre-test questionnaire, where it asks 'Have you taken these tests before, and when?', I was instructed to put "No". Some rule and standards changes back in 2013 changed the tests and rendered my previous attempt null & void. So effectively giving me 1 life back. Passed it all that time though.

 

[Stigy]

I've read this thread with intrigue. No one's mentioned what happens when they change the standards for the tests, which is what I experienced.

In 2010, I passed all the old tests at OCP except I failed the interview by 1 mark (it wasn't called MMI, but was broadly similar interview).

Was so gutted I didn't apply again until 2018 lol. I took the OCP tests, and when it came to the pre-test questionnaire, where it asks 'Have you taken these tests before, and when?', I was instructed to put "No". Some rule and standards changes back in 2013 changed the tests and rendered my previous attempt null & void. So effectively giving me 1 life back. Passed it all that time though.

Indeed. It was the same for me.

I originally took the tests in 2011 and failed one aspect of the written assessments. When I retook them in 2014 I was pleasantly surprised.

As for the debate as to whether it’s a case of every attempt being classed as one of your two strikes whether you pass or not. I can 100% say that if you pass, you can have as many goes as you like. It’s only “fails” which count as a strike.

 

[Fred Dinenage]

I failed the “old-style” tests on the final interview (CBI, I think it was called ). Then passed the new tests the following year.

As for some saying that tests should be passed first time or made harder...I’ve came across this in messrooms quite often. Some who passed the older tests reckoned that there was a 90% failure rate on those, and only a 10% failure rate on the newer tests. Posturing from old-timers? They didn’t provide any evidence, it was because they said so.

Having sat through them both, I’d say there was little difference between them in difficulty.

Some drivers like to make out as if they’re saving the world by carting passengers about. It’s not like they’re made of nitroglycerin!

 

[Fat Gaz]

At the end of the day, if you want to pay for your tests - good luck to you.
I waited and it took 2 1/2 years to get it all done F.O.C. Along the way, others who had passed various tests were overtaking me in the recruitment process and getting DMI's before I got stage 2s. Having the tests in the back pocket is a gamble because some TOCs require enhanced tests. If the TOC you apply for doesn't need enhanced, then you'll obviously jump the queue in the recruitment process by not having to wait around to get offered stage 2 tests (like I did).

Bottom line, if you turn up to a TOC asking for a job and you only need a DMI, you're a "quick win" to them over someone like me who needed all of the tests. For me, I had no control over other people getting all of their tests done with another TOC and then stepping in and getting an offer before me. That's called competition.

It's your money and your free choice. If it works for you, good luck.

 

[baz962]

I failed the “old-style” tests on the final interview (CBI, I think it was called ). Then passed the new tests the following year.

As for some saying that tests should be passed first time or made harder...I’ve came across this in messrooms quite often. Some who passed the older tests reckoned that there was a 90% failure rate on those, and only a 10% failure rate on the newer tests. Posturing from old-timers? They didn’t provide any evidence, it was because they said so.

Having sat through them both, I’d say there was little difference between them in difficulty.

Some drivers like to make out as if they’re saving the world by carting passengers about. It’s not like they’re made of nitroglycerin!

Well driver manager's at two places told me that it's 50-60% failure at national level. The OPC told me it's around 80% fail to enhanced. Take that as you will. Current tests.

 

[Timpg]

Well driver manager's at two places told me that it's 50-60% failure at national level. The OPC told me it's around 80% fail to enhanced. Take that as you will. Current tests.

Sounds about right to be honest, I did mine to enhanced. I can honestly say, it was ruthless with applicants dropping like flys!
I still can’t believe how fortunate I am to have passed them!!

 

[Stigy]

I failed the “old-style” tests on the final interview (CBI, I think it was called ). Then passed the new tests the following year.

As for some saying that tests should be passed first time or made harder...I’ve came across this in messrooms quite often. Some who passed the older tests reckoned that there was a 90% failure rate on those, and only a 10% failure rate on the newer tests. Posturing from old-timers? They didn’t provide any evidence, it was because they said so.

Having sat through them both, I’d say there was little difference between them in difficulty.

Some drivers like to make out as if they’re saving the world by carting passengers about. It’s not like they’re made of nitroglycerin!

The same “older hands” that say that, also didn’t have the level of rules/traction training and assessments that trainees now have from what I’ve been told by drivers who still only have 10-12 years in the job. Swings and roundabouts I guess.

Sounds about right to be honest, I did mine to enhanced. I can honestly say, it was ruthless with applicants dropping like flys!
I still can’t believe how fortunate I am to have passed them!!

Same here. May even have been at the same assessment centre? I was surprised I passed to be honest, especially on that DFFT!

 

[Rylievie]

I would say the same thing as mentioned. I passed to enhanced standard but upon taking the tests I had no quantifiable clue as to what enhanced was I just did the best that I could. In any case I believe you would do that regardless. The only thing you dont want to do is fail to national standard. Then you go from there. In its Baisic form the higher the mark anyway the more likely you are to be offered a place. Enchanced is a way of culling the mass of applications they get I would say. Paying for it is certainly a risk but what isnt. The only 2 more open parts of the process are the DMI and the MMI both are subject to the opinions of the assessor. The bottom line is yes you can get it for free, yes you could have to re sit parts and yes it doesnt guarantee you any form of "jumping the queue" but as long as you dont fail, apart from the cost I cant really see how it can hurt either if you want to pay the money.

 

[RedYellowGreen]

Out of curiosity, what is the general recruitment process for a qualified driver moving TOC/FOC?

 

[Fred Dinenage]

Just so I’m not misunderstood, the older hands I refer to are full of it. I’m saying things were in no way easier for them at all, some of them just think it was, they think new starters aren’t worthy / boil-in-the-bags, etc.

On the flip side of that, you get other old-timers who are only too happy to help out and pass on their experience.

Any cross-section of life is like that, I suppose. You get helpful types, lazy ones, some who think they’re saving the world doing a monotonous job, etc.