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Driverless trains report

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theageofthetra

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Apparently there is a report in today's FT re a working group developing driverless trains. As its protected by a paywall does anyone have a link via another site? I do wonder if some completely new line e.g HS2 may go down this route.
 
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LLivery

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People would not feel safe going 200mph with a robot, I wouldn't. The DLR is one thing but 100, 125, 140, 186, 200mph? No thanks. Plus it would cost a fortune to implement. It probably won't happen. I still doubt London Underground.
 

Howardh

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Would you be a passenger in a pilotless aircraft?

Is it correct that even these days, once programmed a plane can take off, fly, land and taxi without being touched by a pilot? And when numerous accidents are put down to pilot error - one wonders if pilot-free is safer?

Back to trains/tube/metro - have any driverless trains had an accident of any significance? Would removing human error make them safer??

Personally, I wand a human up there for when, inevitably, machines and computers crash.
 

LowLevel

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Until someone comes up with a system that involves everyone getting a good wage for free every year then we need jobs to do and the people with the dollar signs in their eyes keep designing more out of the process every time despite population increases. I don't want to work in a lab or an office and as I only seem likely to have one life I want to do something I deem fulfilling, not what someone who somehow ended up in charge deems right or wrong. If we carry on down that path vive la revolution.
 

yorkie

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People would not feel safe going 200mph with a robot, I wouldn't. The DLR is one thing but 100, 125, 140, 186, 200mph? No thanks. Plus it would cost a fortune to implement. It probably won't happen. I still doubt London Underground.
I don't know what you mean by "doubt London Underground", but a closed metro system with common stock is completely different to the intricacies of the National network. It's not viable, at least in the forseeable future. And we've had loads of threads about this already.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Apparently there is a report in today's FT re a working group developing driverless trains.
They already exist, but it's not viable for the national network.

As its protected by a paywall does anyone have a link via another site? I do wonder if some completely new line e.g HS2 may go down this route.
If the report was that significant, it would be more widely available, than just one paywall site. And if it was, a Google search would find it! ;)
 

AM9

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Is it this one?

http://eandt.theiet.org/news/2014/jun/future-rail.cfm

Basically, robots will replace everything and humans will have nothing to do but shop and travel


I laughed at this bit:
"Journey delays could be eradicated by the advent of driverless trains...."
Only if they had passengerless trains! Much as they would like to remove any responsibility for employees, they can't force all passengers into behaviour that never means extended dwell times.
 

Clip

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People would not feel safe going 200mph with a robot, I wouldn't. The DLR is one thing but 100, 125, 140, 186, 200mph? No thanks. Plus it would cost a fortune to implement. It probably won't happen. I still doubt London Underground.

So you are basing what people would based on your own feelings. Amazing. 65 million peoples opinions based on one person.
 

Bantamzen

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Would you be a passenger in a pilotless aircraft?

Is it correct that even these days, once programmed a plane can take off, fly, land and taxi without being touched by a pilot? And when numerous accidents are put down to pilot error - one wonders if pilot-free is safer?

Back to trains/tube/metro - have any driverless trains had an accident of any significance? Would removing human error make them safer??

Personally, I wand a human up there for when, inevitably, machines and computers crash.

At work I write quite a lot of applications for various tasks, and I know only too well that even the slightest error in the code can have some, well rather interesting effects. There will always be a time when you have a PICNIC (problem in chair, not in computer) moment & find yourself swearing at the screen as your code runs away with itself. So personally, I'd be quite nervous writing the software that would be responsible for carrying several hundred people long distances at speed, be it by train or plane. That's not to say the technology should just be dismissed out of hand, but driverless / pilot-less systems operating at speeds that can be dangerous need to be rigorously tested, and retested, and tested again....

Personally, I don't think it's a great idea to take the human factor completely out of the loop, and if the man or woman at the front is no longer in control I would still feel a lot happier if they where very close by ready to hit that switch to manual control when the software has a wobble.
 

HSTEd

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Would you be a passenger in a pilotless aircraft?

Yes, yes I would.

Is it correct that even these days, once programmed a plane can take off, fly, land and taxi without being touched by a pilot? And when numerous accidents are put down to pilot error - one wonders if pilot-free is safer?
We have aircraft that can do this reliably yes, but it requires deployment of systems the rollout of which is only just commencing.
LAAS and its European compatriots will allow for the elusive hands-off approach which will enable entirely hands off flight from brakes-off on the runway to the taxi to the terminal at the other end.

The reason that most accidents are blamed on pilot error is because in the majority of cases the autopilot will only hand back control when the situation has become essentially unsalvageable. For instance see the Alaska Airlines accident that inspired the incident in Flight - the crew attempted the same manoeuvre but they were unable to save the aircraft.

Back to trains/tube/metro - have any driverless trains had an accident of any significance? Would removing human error make them safer??

Well with ETCS and its built in ATP functionality most human error accidents have been eliminated.
The only thing the driver has to worry about are unexpected obstructions on the track.

Personally, I wand a human up there for when, inevitably, machines and computers crash.
If the computer crashes the train will likely become uncontrollable since everything else is dependent upon computers.
What if it crashes in a way that is not immediately obvious but takes out the cab signalling equipment and the driver doesn't realise until he sees the back of another train ahead?
 

DD

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Quite a pointless article considering that ERTMS wont be fully implemented on the whole network until 2044 if the timetables all go to plan.
 

BestWestern

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gordonthemoron:1877958 said:
ice3 are largely computer controlled and the driver does little most of the time

This is precisely the point. A Driver (or 'Train Operator' to use the LU term for someone who sits in the front cab but isn't a Driver) will always be required on an open railway network using heavy rail at normal operating speeds. A computer can never be totally relied upon to spot a fallen tree, an obstruction blown across the line, a pushbike dumped on a level crossing, a trespasser, or so on, there are just too many variables and possibilities. Nor is it likely to slam on the brakes having just wiped out a jumper when passing through a platform, instead perhaps rolling into the next stop with a rather colourfully decorated nose cone....the list of basic human functions that a computer simply cannot do is substantial. It works on the DLR because the infrastructure is segregated, the network is limited, speeds are low and risks are minimal. The Underground has potential for the same reasons. Existing heavy railway lines are not in the same category and likely never will be. HS2 could be possible if it ran at 40mph, but seriously unlikely at 200.
 
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Beveridges

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A computer can never be totally relied upon to spot a fallen tree, an obstruction blown across the line, a pushbike dumped on a level crossing, a trespasser, or so on, there are just too many variables and possibilities


Niether can a human driver. Ever seen the drivers view during darkness (most of the time in winter) in a unit with **** poor headlights like a 142?
You can see almost nothing if there was something on the track ahead.
And even though its uncommon, in thick fog, you can't see hardly anything even if you've got a modern train with powerful headlights.
 
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Class377/5

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First ATO on the national rail network will happen in about four years time on Thameslink, but the driver will be in the cab at all times.
 

DownSouth

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Nor is it likely to slam on the brakes having just wiped out a jumper when passing through a platform, instead perhaps rolling into the next stop with a rather colourfully decorated nose cone
Didn't a human-driven TGV recently wipe out a person and carry on to the next scheduled stop with the body lodged in the front without the driver knowing?
 

SpacePhoenix

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Didn't a human-driven TGV recently wipe out a person and carry on to the next scheduled stop with the body lodged in the front without the driver knowing?

Think it was a cyclist at a level crossing, think it made it to the end of the route before they were noticed. I'm fairly sure there is a thread about it somewhere
 

BestWestern

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It did indeed, yes. Very, very rare incident, though rather shocking for those waiting on the platform!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Beveridges:1878165 said:
A computer can never be totally relied upon to spot a fallen tree, an obstruction blown across the line, a pushbike dumped on a level crossing, a trespasser, or so on, there are just too many variables and possibilities


Niether can a human driver. Ever seen the drivers view during darkness (most of the time in winter) in a unit with **** poor headlights like a 142?
You can see almost nothing if there was something on the track ahead.
And even though its uncommon, in thick fog, you can't see hardly anything even if you've got a modern train with powerful headlights.

That's true, but the human still has the better chance. Again, there is simply too much external risk to have mainline trains running without somebody sat with a emergency brake plunger, whether that be a driver or somebody less qualified on a lower salary.
 

whoosh

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I can just hear a Railway Boss now, having been convinced by Technical Boffins and Marketing people, "We're going to get rid of human train drivers. Every so often they want a pay rise, and some of them retire meaning new ones need training. It costs £millions.

So... Wouldn't it be good if we could replace them with computers. There'd be no strikes then. Except control staff and maintenance staff could still cripple the network of course, but let's gloss over that. The computers would need software updates which would need testing, and oh yes, the computers themselves would need upgrading periodically - a bit like those drivers retiring!

Anyway, it's only going to cost £x TRILLIONS , and will save us money!"
 
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HSTEd

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Control staff are far easier to replace and a 24 hour strike by maintenance staff is unlikely to bring the railway to a complete halt in the same way that a strike by train crew can.

And if the railway was controlled by a dozen people watching computers do all the work then they could be paid so much that they would never strike and it would still save money.
 

carriageline

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But will there seriously ever be trains with NO ONE up the front? Things fail period. Be it signalling equipment, train equipment, and someone will have to be there to step in and drive it manually. I'm jot completely sure what the future holds for technology, but having one person watch X amount of screens with trains on them doesn't sound like the way forward. Plus what happens if things like examination of the line needs to be carried out? What about the things drivers ring up us signallers now to report (ie trespassers, smoke from a location cabinet, something wrong with a passing train), I can't see an automatic train will deal with them.

Too much to go wrong in my eyes, I think the future will just be similar to what we have on the tube lines. Otherwise, are you going to have no one on certain trains at all? Or are they going to bring guards back and make them GOO :p
 

HSTEd

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But will there seriously ever be trains with NO ONE up the front? Things fail period. Be it signalling equipment, train equipment, and someone will have to be there to step in and drive it manually.

The only way a failure of the atuomatic train control system can cause a dangerous fault is if it fails by some mechanism that prevents any of the watchdog systems detecting it (or you have to assume that the watchdogs all fail which is so unlikely its difficult to even calculate).
It is even harder to contrive a mechanism that could produce such massive cascade failures but would not disable the trains 'manual' controls - which on many trains are far from actually being manual these days.

And remember that in the worst case scenario an electric train, which for the majority of lines is the future, can be stopped remotely by the simple expedient of tripping the power supply breaker.

And drivers are terribly expensive to train and pay.
I'm jot completely sure what the future holds for technology, but having one person watch X amount of screens with trains on them doesn't sound like the way forward.
All the person watching the screens has to do it look for anything completely out of the ordinary, having dozens of screens watching the train run to the eaxctly programmed schedule would be rather pointless.
It is more to do with using cameras to react to out-of-ordinary situations such as a train losing communication with the control centre.
At that point, having your eyes in a central control centre may in fact be beneficial as it avoids the 'fog of war' effect that conerns staff in the field.

Plus what happens if things like examination of the line needs to be carried out?
Examination of the line?
If in response to some trigger incident rather than simply prophylactic then the man in the control centre can switch to the appropriate feed from a train in the appropriate position and watch it in real time or even record it since all feeds could be practically buffered for a significant amount of time.

And for prophylactic monitoring a large fraction of the capability can be gained by simple leaving a screen on a randomly selected train whenever it is not in use for something else.
What about the things drivers ring up us signallers now to report (ie trespassers, smoke from a location cabinet, something wrong with a passing train), I can't see an automatic train will deal with them.
Trespassers can be detected through proper deployment of intrusion alarms of various types, additionally the increasing isolation of the railway from the general population (the security measures I see trackside are far in excess of historical norms).
Smoke from a location cabinet could be handled by the simple expedient of fitting heat detectors to trackside cabinets - and remember that the amount of trackside wiring is going to be significantly reduced by ETCS L2 (which will eliminate the signal wiring) and eventually by ETCS L3/R (which will eliminate track circuits/axle counters).
In the long run all that will be left will be the pointwork controllers.

And something wrong with the passing train?
What exactly?
Computerised diagnostics aboard the train would be able to detect a wide variety of faults that would have been difficult to diagnose historically - it is hard to think of faults that would escape notice by the computers but that would be a serious matter.

Too much to go wrong in my eyes, I think the future will just be similar to what we have on the tube lines. Otherwise, are you going to have no one on certain trains at all? Or are they going to bring guards back and make them GOO :p

As I understand it Line 14 of the Paris Metro (the METEOR) operates with noone on the trains at all.
That is the future, especially on our increasingly underground metro operations (where PEDs will be standard in the future).
And pattern recognition obstacle detection is drastically better than it used to be, the Google Car proves that.
 

LLivery

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So you are basing what people would based on your own feelings. Amazing. 65 million peoples opinions based on one person.

I never meant it like that... I've spoken to all kinds of people who say they wouldn't want no driver in a cab at High Speed. Have you never thought about something ''hmm I doubt most people would want that...''? I'm not trying to speak for all 64 million people of the UK. What is amazing is if the majority wanted it.
 

DD

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As I said, ERTMS will not be completed nationwide until 2044 if it goes to plan so unless they construct a new underground system somewhere that will be built to be driverless you will have quite a wait. People talk about driverless cars, pilotless planes and boats etc as if the technology has just been invented when infact the technology for boats, planes and boats has been around for a long time. However, just because it can be done does not mean its the best solution. A driverless underground/metro system is far safer compared to mainlines because they are a secure operating environment with short distances between stations with purpose built walk ways providing safe walking routes in the event of a train evacuation, whether by emergency or in a controlled situation.

The problem with mainline trains is that someone will always need to be onboard in the event of a train fault, signalling fault, door faults, track defects, OHLE defects, trespassers, lineside fires, objects, trees etc etc etc so the best solution would be to have the train operate in ATO mode with a driver over seeing the train. When I had an incident on an inner suburban line within in London still took over 40minutes for assistance to help....and I have even had to extinguish a lineside fire! and if that was in the middle of some field it would have taken alot more than 40minutes for help to arrive! this is why the best solution is not driverless, and the head of HS2 agrees when he said that a human being is not perfect but nor is a computer, however by combining them both you have the best of both. Its also not cheaper removing the driver...its infact more expensive not having a driver.
 

physics34

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This is precisely the point. A Driver (or 'Train Operator' to use the LU term for someone who sits in the front cab but isn't a Driver) will always be required on an open railway network using heavy rail at normal operating speeds. A computer can never be totally relied upon to spot a fallen tree, an obstruction blown across the line, a pushbike dumped on a level crossing, a trespasser, or so on, there are just too many variables and possibilities. Nor is it likely to slam on the brakes having just wiped out a jumper when passing through a platform, instead perhaps rolling into the next stop with a rather colourfully decorated nose cone....the list of basic human functions that a computer simply cannot do is substantial. It works on the DLR because the infrastructure is segregated, the network is limited, speeds are low and risks are minimal. The Underground has potential for the same reasons. Existing heavy railway lines are not in the same category and likely never will be. HS2 could be possible if it ran at 40mph, but seriously unlikely at 200.

hmmm, i reckon cameras connected to a control centre with people viewing them (on far less pay than a train driver) and sensors etc etc could maybe be used....
 
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HSTEd

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I never meant it like that... I've spoken to all kinds of people who say they wouldn't want no driver in a cab at High Speed. Have you never thought about something ''hmm I doubt most people would want that...''? I'm not trying to speak for all 64 million people of the UK. What is amazing is if the majority wanted it.

Its amazing what you can get people to go for by simply rubbing a finger and thumb together.

And at 200mph the driver is actually less useful than at lower speeds since in most cases by the time a driver has identified something you have already hit it.
 

Tomnick

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hmmm, i reckon cameras connected to a control centre with people viewing them (on far less pay than a train driver) and sensors etc etc could maybe be used....
Is that based on a thorough knowledge of the driver's duties and responsibilities? At least HSTEd, as much as I don't think much of whatever goes on in this wonderful theoretical world would stand up to the realities of the railway environment, can back up his thoughts and proposals with a thorough and reasoned (even if some of the big words are made up ;) ) argument!

On those realities - I think we're some way away from being able to examine the line remotely. The driver's presence and thorough route knowledge counts for a great deal - a good number of broken rails, for example, are detected by a driver, before it deteriorates too badly, reporting a rough ride (and distinguishing that from the various bits of track that are known to always produce a bit of a kick). Defects on passing trains - would an on-board computer be able to (within a reasonable budget) detect a shifted or otherwise unsafe load? Assuming that there won't be a sudden influx of hi-tech freight stock, would a computer even be able to 'drive' a heavy freight train on a challenging route - still a task requiring a fair amount of skill, I understand.

As an aside, isolating the power supply isn't (currently - no pun intended - at least) an effective way of getting a train stopped quickly - reference to stories of electric trains coasting twenty miles or more into Euston proves that!
 

DownSouth

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hmmm, i reckon cameras connected to a control centre with people viewing them (on far less pay than a train driver) and sensors etc etc could maybe be used....
This is the approach that Rio Tinto are going towards with their massive iron ore trains in the Pilbara region of Western Australia. It's a long-term project, made complex by the fact these are the heaviest trains in the world (with distributed power in the mix) that will make the issue of level crossings one of the easier aspects to deal with.

The driverless project there will lead to similar numbers of people being employed and at a similar pay grade, but in a city-based control centre which won't have all the extra overheads of running a FIFO (fly in fly out, the crews work with systems like eight days on and six days off rather than living there permanently) operation in rather inhospitable conditions.

The issues of train handling, extreme weather and the FIFO operation obviously won't apply to Britain where there is no heavy freight, no distributed power, much smaller ranges of temperatures to deal with and no remote areas.
 

radamfi

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In a world with driverless cars, indeed manually driven cars would be banned on the grounds of safety, it would be hard to argue that you can't have driverless trains.
 
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