Drivers - DSD and ankle issues

[Fred Dinenage]

Has anyone else experienced this? I’ve got bad tendonitis in one ankle, not so much in the other. DSD, or bad driving posture? Mainly aimed at drivers who’ve been on a long time, I suppose. Just wondering if my malady is possibly connected to the cab, and how I can alleviate the issue. Another driver at my depot also has issues, wondering if any other drivers have came across it.

 

[whoosh]

Yes I do. I think it's the flat design of the driver's seats. They do not support the buttocks or hips and let the upper legs roll outwards. This manifests itself in the ankle being at the wrong angle, in my opinion.

Some stock I have driven in the past have had the DSD placed quite far forward too - if you see pictures of the correct way of how you should sit at a desk, then it involves tucking your feet back and underneath where you are sitting, which is absolutely not how anyone is forced to drive a train. Voyagers and Meridians are quite bad in this respect.

I have driven older stock in the past (now scrapped), which had a seat with curved sides, much more supportive and counteracted any outward roll of the hips. I never had any problem when driving with these units.

 

[Sheridan]

I haven’t had any issues caused by the DSD but I’ve had a recent ankle issue from running and it’s made me notice my position on the DSD more. I prefer to sit roughly horizontal, while most DSDs and the area they sit in seem to be angled up, so my toes are always higher than my heel. It’s never caused me discomfort in itself but it was definitely more noticeable with a sore ankle. I would say, more generally, the wider the DSD pedal the better - the older ones with a narrow strip in the middle force you to twist your leg(s) in to keep your foot in the right position.

 

[dk1]

Yes I've got it in my right ankle. Guess it's just something we'll have to live with.

 

[Stigy]

Not so much with the ankles but I’ve had issues with my left wrist I can only assume is repetitive strain in using the Power/Brake Controller. I’ve had issues with that wrist for a while, but it gets worse and then improves a few times a year these days which it never used to.

Climbing in and out of cabs from ground level is starting to take its toll on my knees too. I’ve only been driving a few years but I feel old

 

[mechanic2]

I'm notba driver, yet. However, as someone who is in the process of applying, I'm now curious as to this injury/issue.

How often does the DSD actually sound? And is it a case of only sounding if the controls haven't been pressed in a while?
And finally, how hard do you have to tap the pedal to kill the sound?

Hope this isn't too much of a subject change, just trying to get a feel for this potential posture problem.

Thanks!

 

[hexagon789]

How often does the DSD actually sound?

Usually every 60 seconds

And is it a case of only sounding if the controls haven't been pressed in a while?

Depends on traction, on some moving the power/brake controls, cancelling the AWS or using the horn will reset the vigilance timer, on others it will go off regardless.

And finally, how hard do you have to tap the pedal to kill the sound?

You dont tap it to "kill the sound". You keep the DSD (Driver Safety Device) pedal depressed normally, when the DVD (Driver Vigilance Device) sounds after 60 seconds of inactivity, you raise and then depress the DSD opedal to cancel it.

Only raising the pedal won't cancel it, it must be raised AND depressed again.

 

[ComUtoR]

Usually every 60 seconds

Is this different for metro ? Yes I am aware you are talking about the technical side but my DSD rarely goes off because of the way I've been taught to drive and because on metro services I'm stop/start so often that the DSD rarely sounds.

I've been taught to always tap the DSD every now and again to ensure its in my control, not the other way around. On a more mainline service is the driving style more of a leave it down till it sounds, and the reset it ?

 

[357]

On my traction it doesn't need to be flush with the floor, just pressed down past a certain point.

My work boots have enough natural weight in them to keep it down, I don't need to apply pressure through my legs.

However, as has been said above, a wider DSD would be lovely

 

[choochoochoo]

Not so much with the ankles but I’ve had issues with my left wrist I can only assume is repetitive strain in using the Power/Brake Controller. I’ve had issues with that wrist for a while, but it gets worse and then improves a few times a year these days which it never used to.

Climbing in and out of cabs from ground level is starting to take its toll on my knees too. I’ve only been driving a few years but I feel old

I think I’m getting RSI (repetitive strain injury, not rolling stock inspector ) from the power brake controller too. Unlike older traction where the wrist is in a more natural horizontal position when operating the brake or power handle, I feel using it in a vertical position is now causing me issues.

I said previously I definitely think ergonomics were never considered when designing the cabs on trains.

Also with regards to the DSD, it was nicer in older traction when the DSD could be either controlled by the plate on the floor OR by keeping the power handle pushed down.

 

[hexagon789]

Is this different for metro ? Yes I am aware you are talking about the technical side but my DSD rarely goes off because of the way I've been taught to drive and because on metro services I'm stop/start so often that the DSD rarely sounds.

I've been taught to always tap the DSD every now and again to ensure its in my control, not the other way around. On a more mainline service is the driving style more of a leave it down till it sounds, and the reset it ?

I know a lot of Trams are 30 seconds, I just assumed all mainline stuff was 60, that seems standard. Unless some newer stuff uses different timings? (45 or 30s)

 

[choochoochoo]

I know a lot of Trams are 30 seconds, I just assumed all mainline stuff was 60, that seems standard. Unless some newer stuff uses different timings? (45 or 30s)

Also need to be careful with definitions

DSD (driver safety device) is the old deadman's and will put the brake on if released (it used to be immediately on some older traction, the newer units give you a few seconds before it 'drops')

DVD (driver vigilance device) is what you need to press if the cab computer hasn't seen any control inputs from the driver in a given time (60sec) otherwise the brakes slam on. Again some older traction don't have vigilance device.

On newer traction they're sort of combined in that if the DVD alert is activated, you cancel it via a quick release of the DSD pedal. I'd much rather there was a tiny DVD cancel button mounted on top of the Brake controller, but we go back to cabs having poor ergonomics. They really need to take a leaf out of aviation's book and how they design cockpits.

 

[PG]

I know a lot of Trams are 30 seconds, I just assumed all mainline stuff was 60, that seems standard. Unless some newer stuff uses different timings? (45 or 30s)

I'm not a driver but have a question :
Is the frequency and setup of how the DSD and/or DVD operates purely down to what the manufacturer or TOC decides is appropriate?

 

[Stigy]

Also need to be careful with definitions

DSD (driver safety device) is the old deadman's and will put the brake on if released (it used to be immediately on some older traction, the newer units give you a few seconds before it 'drops')

DVD (driver vigilance device) is what you need to press if the cab computer hasn't seen any control inputs from the driver in a given time (60sec) otherwise the brakes slam on. Again some older traction don't have vigilance device.

On newer traction they're sort of combined in that if the DVD alert is activated, you cancel it via a quick release of the DSD pedal. I'd much rather there was a tiny DVD cancel button mounted on top of the Brake controller, but we go back to cabs having poor ergonomics. They really need to take a leaf out of aviation's book and how they design cockpits.

Not sure if this is what you’re saying in a roundabout sort of way, but certainly on the stock I know of (most DMU/EMU), the DSD is the mechanical component of the DVD. The DVD sounds the alert, and the DSD is the pedal which requires pressing/releasing to reset the DVD.

 

[philthetube]

I think I’m getting RSI (repetitive strain injury, not rolling stock inspector ) from the power brake controller too. Unlike older traction where the wrist is in a more natural horizontal position when operating the brake or power handle, I feel using it in a vertical position is now causing me issues.

I said previously I definitely think ergonomics were never considered when designing the cabs on trains.

Also with regards to the DSD, it was nicer in older traction when the DSD could be either controlled by the plate on the floor OR by keeping the power handle pushed down.

On LUL the S Stock cab was designed with Union involvement and although not all union ideas were followed, (probably sensibly), the finished result was pretty good and could even be driven standing if the driver wished.

 

[choochoochoo]

Not sure if this is what you’re saying in a roundabout sort of way, but certainly on the stock I know of (most DMU/EMU), the DSD is the mechanical component of the DVD. The DVD sounds the alert, and the DSD is the pedal which requires pressing/releasing to reset the DVD.

DSD asks are you there , DVD asks are you awake.

Older traction like 313s only had/have DSD.

 

[hexagon789]

Also need to be careful with definitions

DSD (driver safety device) is the old deadman's and will put the brake on if released (it used to be immediately on some older traction, the newer units give you a few seconds before it 'drops')

DVD (driver vigilance device) is what you need to press if the cab computer hasn't seen any control inputs from the driver in a given time (60sec) otherwise the brakes slam on. Again some older traction don't have vigilance device.

On newer traction they're sort of combined in that if the DVD alert is activated, you cancel it via a quick release of the DSD pedal. I'd much rather there was a tiny DVD cancel button mounted on top of the Brake controller, but we go back to cabs having poor ergonomics. They really need to take a leaf out of aviation's book and how they design cockpits.

I was using DSD for the pedal, DVD for the timer - in the simplest terns

I'm not a driver but have a question :
Is the frequency and setup of how the DSD and/or DVD operates purely down to what the manufacturer or TOC decides is appropriate?

I would presume there is a standard.

On older stock with an air-pressure operated DVD, the timer would vary unit to unit depending on how much pressure was in the system.

It could change every time the DVD was adjusted during maintenance and was tested.

I believe anything from 40-60 seconds was permissible, but I've never come across one of these systems described thoroughly to comment on.

Supposedly HSTs had it when new, and I'd guess maybe 87s as they were the first BR locos with vigilance timer devices.

I believe General Motors used such a system and the 071 Class in Ireland had/has an air pressure-controlled vigilance, possibly older classes too...

DSD asks are you there , DVD asks are you awake.

Older traction like 313s only had/have DSD.

156s up my way are DSD only

 

[TO123]

Got tendonitis in my left ankle. Never considered this could be the cause, just attributed it to sitting constantly and getting unfit.

 

[Fred Dinenage]

Thanks for the replies

I’m making enquiries at work to see if there’s anything can be done to try to solve it, or at least improve the situation. I’ll not hold my breath…the seats are an ongoing issue

 

[mechanic2]

Do you require a good solid amount of weight to keep the pedal depressed? As in, does your foot ache after a while of having to constantly keep your foot pressed onto a solid pedal?

Appreciate all the replies to my question above. It's good to get an insight into even the smallest of nuances of driving.

 

[ComUtoR]

I know a lot of Trams are 30 seconds, I just assumed all mainline stuff was 60, that seems standard. Unless some newer stuff uses different timings? (45 or 30s)

Apologies I didn't mean the technical side. More in how we use it. I can drive around all day and it never "goes off". O Move the handle so much or I'm stopping too often. Even when I'm between stations for any real distance, I'm gonna quickly tap the DSD to stop it surprising me.

Is the driving style so different on mainline routes that your sitting with your feet on the DSD and just constantly reset every 60s ?

 

[hexagon789]

Apologies I didn't mean the technical side. More in how we use it. I can drive around all day and it never "goes off". O Move the handle so much or I'm stopping too often. Even when I'm between stations for any real distance, I'm gonna quickly tap the DSD to stop it surprising me.

Is the driving style so different on mainline routes that your sitting with your feet on the DSD and just constantly reset every 60s ?

Oh right, see what you mean.

Definitely on metro style routes, I would expect it's very easy to never or rarely hear the DVD/need to reset it, provided the traction has control movements resetting of the DVD.

On long non-stop runs (20, 30mi+ between stops) I have often heard the DVD go off repeatedly from the drivers cab, dozens of times.

I would expect on LNER and Avanti fast runs between London and York or Warrington, the DVD could potentially sound 100 times or more.

(Expecially on IC225 sets, as I believe they don't have the DVD reset by any control movements.)

 

[357]

Do you require a good solid amount of weight to keep the pedal depressed? As in, does your foot ache after a while of having to constantly keep your foot pressed onto a solid pedal?

It might depend on stock. On my type of train the weight of my steel toe cap bolts is enough to hold it down.

 

[secretsquirels]

Super Tel says stop being soft, buy a slab on your way home from work and down the lot, all to the sound track of smooth radio.

In all honesty, I’ve felt the same. Bought myself some really good safety shoes from Skechers and seems a lot better.

 

[ComUtoR]

On long non-stop runs (20, 30mi+ between stops) I have often heard the DVD go off repeatedly from the drivers cab, dozens of times.

I would expect on LNER and Avanti fast runs between London and York or Warrington, the DVD could potentially sound 100 times or more.

(Expecially on IC225 sets, as I believe they don't have the DVD reset by any control movements.)

Cheers, this thread make more sense now.