Drivers pay increases

[21C101]

Mods' note: split from ECML Disruption - Saturday 27th December

A lot of this is Baumol's Cost Disease.

For them as don't know, salaries roughly track pcGDP (over the long term), but some sectors don't get big efficiency improvements. Train drivers are one, as there's been one driver per train since we got rid of the fireman with dieselization in the sixties.

This means that train drivers look ever more expensive year on year. So the numbers get cut and the drivers get stretched ever thinner....

Also since privatisation drivers pay has risen disproportionately due to union picking off a weak TOC and obtaining a thumping pay rise then the others having to follow suit or lose drivers to other TOCs paying more (hence the industry interest in automating them out of existence and replacing them with DLR style train captains). Eventually they will go the way of the printers and print unions, but not for a good few years yet.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Well let's look at it in the way of responsibility and training and I think that a driver most certainly earns his crust in times of low adhesion & in particular very poor visibility, where we have to do up to 125 (100 in my case) mph or 186 in Eurostars. We're the mechanic as well.

So I think anywhere between £60 & 45k is a reasonable salary. I'd also pay doctors (even more) & nurses that sort of money too, as they're just as responsible as us.

 

[SkinnyDave]

Also since privatisation drivers pay has risen disproportionately due to union picking off a weak TOC and obtaining a thumping pay rise then the others having to follow suit or lose drivers to other TOCs paying more (hence the industry interest in automating them out of existence and replacing them with DLR style train captains). Eventually they will go the way of the printers and print unions, but not for a good few years yet.

I'll bet you a proportion of my extremely large salary that doesn't happen

 

[NSEFAN]

Perhaps everyone should be paid more. After all, if banks get to print money at will, then why can't everyone else?

 

[21C101]

Someone obviously wanted to take my comment (which had sat there for the thick end of a week) out of context and invite flaming (although the more provocative posts appear to have been deleted by mods)

Anyway its on record that basic drivers pay has increased from about £12,000 in the '90s to £33-40k now, - with parallel elimination of allowances. Its also on record that other operational staff such as signallers have not had nearly so large pay rises.

The drivers have been able to exercise significant industrial muscle because of the long training period, along with the need for specific route knowledge which needs regular refresh which other staff such as signallers with equally responsible (and arguably more difficult) jobs could not.

My guess is that in the long term (ie 20-30 years) employers will look to technology eliminating/minimising the need for route knowledge (as is the case already in the USA where speed signalling is used I understand) rather than eliminate the post altogether (although in some cases DLR train captains may eventually come in); the aim being to allow shorter training periods, more flexible utilisation and more easy replacement in the event of industrial action.(which is much what the Newspaper industry did when inkjet printing came in).


I'm not attempting to put the boot into drivers. I would do exactly the same in their position, and arguably they were singificantly underpaid in BR days, just explaining how I think technology will be deployed and why

So flame away if you want, but hopefully a sensible conversation on what is actually a very interesting and complex subject might be had (noting I'm talking about the LONG TERM, by when few of us will still be doing the jobs we are now). In the meanwhile ASFLED and co need to be careful not to overplay their hand like SOGAT & co did. (although to be fair they seem the most impressive and non political of the three railway unions these days and I would probably leave my lot and join them if they accepted non drivers)

 

[Legzr1]

If anyone is truly interested in the reasons why drivers wages have increased 'so much' I recommend reading up on DRI packages and look at the affect a certain Mr. Branson had on the industry when he first mooted 'excellent wages for excellent staff'.

If, after reading through the reports on the matter, some still feel an average driver is overpaid then all I can suggest is perhaps look for vacancies.

 

[notadriver]

A couple of points to add :

Train drivers in developed European countries such as France and Spain are are also comparably paid similarly to those in the UK. The exception to this (and i might be wrong) is metro (tube drivers) and in Paris at least they start on the same salary as their bus driver counterparts. The salary quoted then was 1800 euros per month.

Regarding signallers and drivers pay - is it not true that airline captains can command 6 figure salaries? The average pilot salary is higher than the average air traffic controller salary and this is mirrored on the railway.

We've recently seen a London wide bus strike during which 90 percent of London buses didn't run. Is this a turning point for bus drivers in general and will their salaries rise in the same way that train drivers have?

The future : Ultimately I see monorails being built and these won't have a driver in the sense that we know it now.

 

[Ironside]

A couple of points to add :

Train drivers in developed European countries such as France and Spain are are also comparably paid similarly to those in the UK. The exception to this (and i might be wrong) is metro (tube drivers) and in Paris at least they start on the same salary as their bus driver counterparts. The salary quoted then was 1800 euros per month.

Regarding signallers and drivers pay - is it not true that airline captains can command 6 figure salaries? The average pilot salary is higher than the average air traffic controller salary and this is mirrored on the railway.

We've recently seen a London wide bus strike during which 90 percent of London buses didn't run. Is this a turning point for bus drivers in general and will their salaries rise in the same way that train drivers have?

The future : Ultimately I see monorails being built and these won't have a driver in the sense that we know it now.

Pilots can earn a 100k, but only after 10-20 years experience and if they are capable of getting to the rank of captain. Promotion is quicker with budget airlines but the expenses are stingier and you have to pay for some things yourself. So pilots may start at around 40-50k going up with experience, but this doesn't take into account the poor wages, if any, when they are learning to fly.

 

[notadriver]

Absolutely true they have to pay for their training and a first officers pay on easy yet is circa 40k but a top train driver earns 60k and a top pilot double that so I think it's fair.

 

[Tom B]

Allowances are important as there has been a trend across companies in the last 20 odd years away from allowances paid based retrospectively on what you actually worked, to a general figure added to your salary.

Someone I know was on a £17k basic salary as a security guard, took home nearer £32k because he did permanent nights by swapping with colleagues who didn't want to do them, worked every weekend and bank holiday etc. The allowances were then averaged and consolidated into a basic salary of £20k. Surprisingly, they no longer wished to pick up night shifts which were unpopular! So those who worked plenty of antisocial shifts may have been picking up a great deal whilst the basic salary was paid to those who are allergic to awkward hours.

 

[fowler9]

I hope this doesn't insult anyone but I see no reason a train driver should earn as much as a pilot. Even as a layman with no experience of either I am a qualified Mechanical Engineer and can see nowhere near the number of variables involved being a train driver as there are in being a pilot.

 

[notadriver]

I agree and a typical experienced pilot can earn twice as much as a train driver in the same way that the train driver earns twice as much as a typical bus driver.

 

[fowler9]

Whilst I think we should all get paid a bit more than we should in comparison to the top percentage of society I would say what railway staff earn is about right. They work long and hard for it and have a lot of responsibility.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Whilst I think we should all get paid a bit more than we should in comparison to the top percentage of society I would say what railway staff earn is about right. They work long and hard for it and have a lot of responsibility.

Is that not a bit contradictory to your original post?

 

[fowler9]

Is that not a bit contradictory to your original post?

Which bit? I wish we all earned a bit more but they would just stick prices up. I think train drivers earn about what is right for the job.

 

[Jamesb1974]

Which bit? I wish we all earned a bit more but they would just stick prices up. I think train drivers earn about what is right for the job.

I hope this doesn't insult anyone but I see no reason a train driver should earn as much as a pilot. Even as a layman with no experience of either I am a qualified Mechanical Engineer and can see nowhere near the number of variables involved being a train driver as there are in being a pilot.

That bit. I assumed you were referring to the post about pilots starting on around £40-£50k?

 

[fowler9]

That bit. I assumed you were referring to the post about pilots starting on around £40-£50k?

No mate, not at all. I don't think every pilot should earn more than every train driver. The fact that some short haul pilots in the states were on food stamps according to Michael Moore did concern me somewhat. I don't know how true that was. I would hope that no train drivers here or in the States have to claim benefits. They have a hell of a lot of responsibility. To expand further I would in general expect a pilot to earn more for a similar level of experience.

 

[E16 Cyclist]

Another aspect lots of people fail to realise when they see train drivers salaries is that a lot of the terms and conditions they had under BR have been sold off for a larger basic salary, this is one of the main efficiency improvements that have affected train drivers. Virgin for example have one of the higher basic salaries but for that they've sold off a lot of their agreements such as Sunday being outside the working week

 

[stopblock]

The driving grade has sold (for want of a better word) many of their conditions to gain a higer grade of pay, things like driver only payment, mileage.
When 1 company starts to pay their drivers xx amount the other companys are then have to raise their wage increase to match and keep their drivers.
Freight train drivers now undertake a lot of shunters roles in some locations by doing their own run rounds checking of their own train after discharging at a power station. With the extra duties they now have to do so their pay is matched.
I cant see anytime in the near future that driverless trains will operate on the main netwrok other then Docklands. But as someone has said technology will play a bigger part in their role as a driver. The computer almost drives the train now. Opening the power handle 1,2,3,4 notchs the computer delivers the power as it sees fit to the traction motors.he driver does controll the speed of the train but there will be a time when the driver is just sat there as a fail safe to the computer doing all the work and to operaate thorn for trackworkers as in theory it will know the route and all the whistle boards etc.
Only time will tell us if they will continue to get the kind of salaries they are gettting like now.

 

[Pacerpilot]

As above, we carry basic tools and spares for wagon repairs at the powerstation. We arent going to start re-blocking the brakes or wheelset swaps but small repairs to the door air system if its being problematic when tipping are within our remit. Same goes for fuelling and sanding locos.

 

[SPADTrap]

Why is it that when a question of salary amount is raised more time is spent comparing salaries in jobs with no relevance to one another instead of actually looking at what the job demands for its given salary? What's a pilot got to do with a train driver? As someone who's done both I can safely assure you nothing! It won't be long before it descends into a depressing attack on those who earn more and how they can't justify their salary and how joe public is only happy when they see others getting less and less. At least that's my perception of how the public act when this kind of discussion arises, same as when paramedics were attacked on LBC the other morning.

 

[21C101]

I think the biggest pressure from technology will be to reduce or eliminate the need for route knowledge, not actually for industrial relations reasons but because line blockades are becoming more and more of a political hot potato.

Without the need for Route Knowledge East Coast Main Line trains could have run to Liverpool St via the Canonbury & Graham Road Curves on Sat 27th January when the KX possessions overran.

I think the other technology push will be to lessen the need for individual traction unit knowledge, although this will be more difficult, but merge more into groups of units eg. 377s and 387s not having to be individually signed.

 

[SPADTrap]

I think the biggest pressure from technology will be to reduce or eliminate the need for route knowledge, not actually for industrial relations reasons but because line blockades are becoming more and more of a political hot potato.

Without the need for Route Knowledge East Coast Main Line trains could have run to Liverpool St via the Canonbury & Graham Road Curves on Sat 27th January when the KX possessions overran.

I think the other technology push will be to lessen the need for individual traction unit knowledge, although this will be more difficult, but merge more into groups of units eg. 377s and 387s not having to be individually signed.

How do you 'eliminate' capacity at Liverpool Street then? Seems busy to me as it is for all these computer driven trains!

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Why is it that when a question of salary amount is raised more time is spent comparing salaries in jobs with no relevance to one another instead of actually looking at what the job demands for its given salary? What's a pilot got to do with a train driver? As someone who's done both I can safely assure you nothing!

Actually, it's quiet a good comparison, because both are responsible positions, both are in control of things that move at high speed, both have to drive (fly) in poor weather & zero visibility and both are responsible for hundreds of passengers.

 

[SPADTrap]

Actually, it's quiet a good comparison, because both are responsible positions, both are in control of things that move at high speed, both have to drive (fly) in poor weather & zero visibility and both are responsible for hundreds of passengers.

I can see why you make that comparison and it's fair enough but I'll reiterate, as someone who has done both (if flying a pretty clapped out turboprop into the gloom of Sumburgh counts!)..they're not similar at all in terms of operating environment day to day! They both move people safely but honesty that's it.

 

[fowler9]

Why is it that when a question of salary amount is raised more time is spent comparing salaries in jobs with no relevance to one another instead of actually looking at what the job demands for its given salary? What's a pilot got to do with a train driver? As someone who's done both I can safely assure you nothing! It won't be long before it descends into a depressing attack on those who earn more and how they can't justify their salary and how joe public is only happy when they see others getting less and less. At least that's my perception of how the public act when this kind of discussion arises, same as when paramedics were attacked on LBC the other morning.

I kind of hope you aren't referring to me. Personally I am not trying to turn it in to an attack on what anyone is earning. You brought that up all by yourself. What you have done is a kind of "Someone mentioned pilots, here's what I think everyone thinks even though no one said it and I'm jolly annoyed".

 

[SPADTrap]

I kind of hope you aren't referring to me. Personally I am not trying to turn it in to an attack on what anyone is earning. You brought that up all by yourself. What you have done is a kind of "Someone mentioned pilots, here's what I think everyone thinks even though no one said it and I'm jolly annoyed".

Haha I reckon you're right! It's a pet hate of mine and no I wasn't aiming it at you at all! No one in fact it's just usually how there things go, admittedly not on this forum..!

 

[21C101]

How do you 'eliminate' capacity at Liverpool Street then? Seems busy to me as it is for all these computer driven trains!

Capacity not such a problem on a Saturday, as 27th January 2014 was.

 

[orpine]

Wait a minute, train drivers get paid *how* much? Blimey

What's the training period? A year? Two? Can't seem to find out but it doesn't require a degree, and I'm sure I've seen stuff saying it's only that sort of period before.

Teachers it's a minimum of three years, often 4 (under grad + Masters degree) - they get paid lots less. University lecturers are typically less too (in the £30ks mostly). Same for non-doctor NHS staff, and even doctors until they're well into their 30's (age).

----

Here's a thought - ASLEF claims to have 18,500+ members, if they're all getting "just" 40k, that's £800 million they're taking a year! Throw in National Insurance and pensions... that's probably on the order of 1.5billion a year!

Even just a 33% reduction (so still paid more than the national average of 25k) and that's a saving on hundreds of millions a year!

 

[SPADTrap]

Wait a minute, train drivers get paid *how* much? Blimey

What's the training period? A year? Two? Can't seem to find out but it doesn't require a degree, and I'm sure I've seen stuff saying it's only that sort of period before.

Teachers it's a minimum of three years, often 4 (under grad + Masters degree) - they get paid lots less. University lecturers are typically less too (in the £30ks mostly). Same for non-doctor NHS staff, and even doctors until they're well into their 30's (age).

----

Here's a thought - ASLEF claims to have 18,500+ members, if they're all getting "just" 40k, that's £800 million they're taking a year! Throw in National Insurance and pensions... that's probably on the order of 1.5billion a year!

Even just a 33% reduction (so still paid more than the national average of 25k) and that's a saving on hundreds of millions a year!

So what..after training what happens to a driver...? They disappear? Or do they carry out their highly responsible job? I'm totally lost at your statement, you've forgotten the end product.

See it's happening already!

Train drivers, taking bread off your table since 1880