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Drivers pay increases

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fowler9

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Haha I reckon you're right! It's a pet hate of mine and no I wasn't aiming it at you at all! :) No one in fact it's just usually how there things go, admittedly not on this forum..!

Fair enough to you though mate. I think there are plenty of people who do not have a clue what being a train driver involves. I have applied/still am applying to do it and people just ask how hard can it be? You just push a button. P*sses me off and I'm not even a driver. Ha ha.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Wait a minute, train drivers get paid *how* much? :o Blimey

What's the training period? A year? Two? Can't seem to find out but it doesn't require a degree, and I'm sure I've seen stuff saying it's only that sort of period before.

Teachers it's a minimum of three years, often 4 (under grad + Masters degree) - they get paid lots less. University lecturers are typically less too (in the £30ks mostly). Same for non-doctor NHS staff, and even doctors until they're well into their 30's (age).

----

Here's a thought - ASLEF claims to have 18,500+ members, if they're all getting "just" 40k, that's £800 million they're taking a year! Throw in National Insurance and pensions... that's probably on the order of 1.5billion a year!

Even just a 33% reduction (so still paid more than the national average of 25k) and that's a saving on hundreds of millions a year!

It may not require a degree but it isn't easy to get in to. I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering and haven't managed it yet. You don't need a degree to be a pilot.
 
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notadriver

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I got it myself for real the other day. I joked to the conductor that we swap places and I read his papers while he drove the train. 'Not a chance' he replied. Two male passengers overheard our conversation and said 'I'll have a go - let me drive' despite being far less qualified than the guard who has more knowledge of the train and route than they do.

How should train drivers deal with the fact that most of the general public seem to think the job is ridiculously easy ?
 

orpine

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So what..after training what happens to a driver...? They disappear? Or do they carry out their highly responsible job? I'm totally lost at your statement, you've forgotten the end product.
Yes, they gain experience, but the starting salary seems to be in the 40's. I'm fine paying for experience. I'm not complaining at plumbers or carpenters or electricians and their highly paid blue collar jobs. They get experience and they use it. I don't see so much scope for it in trains and the job postings I've seen imply similar.
 

ainsworth74

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Even just a 33% reduction (so still paid more than the national average of 25k) and that's a saving on hundreds of millions a year!

But does a 33% reduction lead to an appropriate rate of pay (lets ignore the industrial relations issue for now)? As someone above mentioned surely you need to look at what the job demands/requires in order to determine what appropriate rate of remuneration is rather than just grasping figures out of the air.

A fair few people seem to feel train drivers are overpaid but I don't think anyone has offered justification beyond 'well it's just what I think' (why?) or 'job x doesn't get paid that much and they're much more important' (again why? And has anyone compared the demands/requirements?).
 

orpine

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It may not require a degree but it isn't easy to get in to. I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering and haven't managed it yet. You don't need a degree to be a pilot.

I didn't meant to imply a degree was mandatory, I was using it as an example of the training required to get the role.

From an economics perspective, I'm guessing there isn't a shortage of people interesting in being a train driver? In theory that's one reason to pay lots - for a role no-one wants to do.
 

SPADTrap

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Yes, they gain experience, but the starting salary seems to be in the 40's. I'm fine paying for experience. I'm not complaining at plumbers or carpenters or electricians and their highly paid blue collar jobs. They get experience and they use it. I don't see so much scope for it in trains and the job postings I've seen imply similar.

Well it seems you're wrong on the 'starting' salary. Quite in fact. Not sure you know what you're 'paying' for! <D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A fair few people seem to feel train drivers are overpaid but I don't think anyone has offered justification beyond 'well it's just what I think' (why?) or 'job x doesn't get paid that much and they're much more important' (again why? And has anyone compared the demands/requirements?).

Very sensible post, this is exactly what every discussion on this matter ends up as be it about train drivers or paramedics or anyone - sad really.
 
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orpine

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But does a 33% reduction lead to an appropriate rate of pay (lets ignore the industrial relations issue for now)? As someone above mentioned surely you need to look at what the job demands/requires in order to determine what appropriate rate of remuneration is rather than just grasping figures out of the air.

A fair few people seem to feel train drivers are overpaid but I don't think anyone has offered justification beyond 'well it's just what I think' (why?) or 'job x doesn't get paid that much and they're much more important' (again why? And has anyone compared the demands/requirements?).
And excellent and inciteful comment. You're right, but I'd turn it around:

Why do train drivers need to get such a high level of renumeration? Serious question. I'm willing to change my position if someone can explain why it needs to be so high.

- Lack of qualified candidates? (why we pay Surgeons lots)
- Lack of interested candidates? (why they give extra money to new physics teachers)
- Dangerous?
 

SPADTrap

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And excellent and inciteful comment. You're right, but I'd turn it around:

Why do train drivers need to get such a high level of renumeration? Serious question. I'm willing to change my position if someone can explain why it needs to be so high.

- Lack of qualified candidates? (why we pay Surgeons lots)
- Lack of interested candidates? (why they give extra money to new physics teachers)
- Dangerous?

A moment ago you knew all about the starting salary now you need educating on the job?
 

orpine

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Well it seems you're wrong on the 'starting' salary. Quite in fact. Not sure you know what you're 'paying' for! <D
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Very sensible post, this is exactly what every discussion on this matter ends up as be it about train drivers or paramedics or anyone - sad really.
I was basing it on this:
http://www.freightliner.co.uk/en/jo...iner-heavy-haul-train-driver-graduate-scheme/ - 47k when mainline qualified

and
https://uk.firstgroupcareers.com/vacancy/1418/description/ - 43k - no statement saying expereince level needed

Your references saying I'm wrong?
 

fowler9

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I got it myself for real the other day. I joked to the conductor that we swap places and I read his papers while he drove the train. 'Not a chance' he replied. Two male passengers overheard our conversation and said 'I'll have a go - let me drive' despite being far less qualified than the guard who has more knowledge of the train and route than they do.

How should train drivers deal with the fact that most of the general public seem to think the job is ridiculously easy ?

Ask yourself 2 questions, do you enjoy your job and do you feel your employer financially compensates you for your time and skills? If the answer is no get another job. Why should you even care if Joe Public think your job is easy. If it is that easy and you get paid too much why isn't everyone doing it? I have a degree in Mechanical Engineering and haven't been accepted to train as a driver.
 

SPADTrap

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I was basing it on this:
http://www.freightliner.co.uk/en/jo...iner-heavy-haul-train-driver-graduate-scheme/ - 47k when mainline qualified

and
https://uk.firstgroupcareers.com/vacancy/1418/description/ - 43k - no statement saying expereince level needed

Your references saying I'm wrong?

When mainline qualified isn't a starting salary - that's my reference saying you're wrong.

I'd say a driver has reasonable experience when they are on their full salaries (on the mainline with passengers on their own..) do your research into when drivers attain their full salaries as I certainly didn't straight away!
 
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orpine

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A moment ago you knew all about the starting salary now you need educating on the job?

It's called being open minded. You shouldn't deride someone for being willing to change their position, you should commend them.
Or would you rather I just say "I'm right you're wrong" and make comments suggesting that changing your mind or seeking new information are a bad thing?
 

SPADTrap

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It's called being open minded. You shouldn't deride someone for being willing to change their position, you should commend them.
Or would you rather I just say "I'm right you're wrong" and make comments suggesting that changing your mind or seeking new information are a bad thing?

That is a fair comment :D casting a judgement when you know little about something isn't however.
 
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MichaelAMW

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But does a 33% reduction lead to an appropriate rate of pay (lets ignore the industrial relations issue for now)? As someone above mentioned surely you need to look at what the job demands/requires in order to determine what appropriate rate of remuneration is rather than just grasping figures out of the air.

A fair few people seem to feel train drivers are overpaid but I don't think anyone has offered justification beyond 'well it's just what I think' (why?) or 'job x doesn't get paid that much and they're much more important' (again why? And has anyone compared the demands/requirements?).

In purely market terms, it would appear that train drivers *are* significantly overpaid, given mention that has been made elsewhere of as many as 500 applicants per post. However, whilst reducing the salary would reduce the number of applicants to a more mangeable level it also might reduce to zero the number of applicants who are actually suitable. There are presumably quite a lot of applications from either unemployed people who need to demonstrate they are applying for jobs - no particular qualifications so anyone can chuck their hat in the ring - and I would have thought from those who see it in slightly fantasy terms, not in terms of what the job entails and their personal suitability. I think I've picked up, from reading other threads, that a great proportion of appplicants, maybe more than 90% or 95% are eliminated at an early stage, which shows that it's not necessarily all that easy to recruit after all - in many other situations people are rather more self selecting before the application stage.

There is also not really anywhere much to go in professional terms, i.e. most drivers stay drivers, rather as used to be the case with coal miners, who also earned well in the UK. So, whilst teachers and doctors may well train for longer and start on a lower salary, there is the potential to be a deputy head or a consultant, who do earn more. There needs, therefore, to be more of a retention element to the drivers' pay as there is much less that can be offered to meet any desire for progression.

As for the job being easy, much of the time it is (by which I mean straightforward rather than trivial), but professional people are not employed to be constantly working at their limits, rather to deal with the difficulties when they arise. A GP this time of the year gets fed up with coughs and cold and sneezes, which basically are self limiting and shouldn't even involve a trip to the surgery most of the time. However, he's not being paid to prescribe lemsip but to spot that cough that's actually throat cancer. Train drivers I'm sure have a nice time of it trundling along on a bright dry day when all the signals are working correctly but they are paid to get your train moving, and get you home, when it's gone wrong late on a Sunday night in a driving blizzard on an engineering diversion...
 
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ainsworth74

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Your references saying I'm wrong?

From job adverts I've seen trainee pay is somewhere in the region of £20k to £25k or about half the qualified rate of pay. Anything in the region of £40k is going to be for a fully qualified driver.
 

Barn

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21C101:2051343 said:
Also since privatisation drivers pay has risen disproportionately due to union picking off a weak TOC and obtaining a thumping pay rise then the others having to follow suit or lose drivers to other TOCs paying more .

I'm sure there's some truth in this, but what I don't understand in that case is why unions are so seemingly anti-privatisation and desperate for their members to become civil servants? Pay deals in recent years have not been great for many public workers...
 

HarleyDavidson

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orpine.

To me you come across as quite adversarial and you also seem to be quite jealous of what drivers get paid. I don't know what you do in your job, but a driver certainly has to earn it.

If I were to offer you a train at Waterloo one autumn evening, with 12 (fully laden + standing) coaches (so approx 1000 people), it's at night, the leaves are coming down in their droves and you have thick freezing fog, your first call is Winchester, in just about 52-55' to do it and you have to achieve the full line speed of 100 mph in places to do that, would you?

I'm not telling you what the speeds are, where they are, nor I am telling you where the crossovers, stations are nor the platform lengths, you can't see the signals either because of the thick freezing fog and it's super slippery too because of those lovely falling leaves. Wanna do it?

If I set that challenge to office bods, they baulk at the very thought of it and run a mile, yet I have to do it, it's part of the job description, to be able to work a train like that is no problem to me whatsoever. Don't give it a second thought.

Just remember we don't have sat nav or anything like it in the cab, we do it all from memory and I hold an awful lot of my network, with all of the above in my head all of the time I'm out there in those conditions.

It's all grand when the sun is out, the sky is blue and you have nice dry clean rails to run on, but even then you still have to be on your guard, just in case a nice diesel train has dropped oil or there's been a shower during a prolonged dry period, which can make things just that tad slippery when you least expect it.

Then there's the time when the train gets a defect & I have to deal with it, OK nowadays we have GSM-R to ring the problem through, get advice (if we need it) and do what control says, not up to us anymore it seems. I'm the one who has to follow the instructions to the letter, what about a train fire that may require an emergency evacuation? I'm the one who has to get the emergency switch off of the traction current, summon the emergency services and liaise with the signaller very quickly!

We also have to do annual or bi-annual assessments to prove what we do & don't know (forgotten) in the rules, get the updates as well & do a full rules exam when required too. Fail it, you're back to school or out!

I've worked my way up from the bottom to where I am now, do I enjoy it? Not particularly, it doesn't give me any challenges whatsoever, it's boring, mundane, repetitive, unless of course it goes kaput, when it becomes slightly more interesting. The only thing that keeps me here is the travel perks (free & EU reduced rate, Priv Oyster cards) & the money to pay my bills, other than that, there's nothing really to keep me on the railway.

But being one of the old skool, I can quite easily say Veni, vidi, vici. I came, I saw & I conquered every challenge so far. Nothing much fazes me now and do I think I'm fairly paid? Not really when you consider the responsibility that I hold day in day out. I think I should be on around the £50k mark, not £43k.

However the flipside of this is, I'm on a true 4 day week, so the maximum number of days I work out of 7 is 4, the drawback to that is we get some really nasty long turns to make up for the amount of time off. Plus some of the longest ones are at 0400 in the morning, so that means getting up at 0250-0300 then doing a 9-9½ hr turn. Still wanna complain?

Oh and don't forget that Xmas day & Boxing day will come out of your leave entitlements too! Good isn't it? NOT!
 
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ComUtoR

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Why do train drivers need to get such a high level of renumeration? Serious question. I'm willing to change my position if someone can explain why it needs to be so high.

- Lack of qualified candidates? (why we pay Surgeons lots)
- Lack of interested candidates? (why they give extra money to new physics teachers)
- Dangerous?

Do Drivers NEED a high level of remun.... Pay.

Qualified candidates

There isn't any. Train Driving is a sector that requires on the job training. ALL qualified candidates are already existing Drivers and are in an existing role. The number of qualified candidates is finite. However; qualified candidates are advantageous for a TOC and is a big reason why they are gobbled up. Supply and Demand pushes up the remuneration.

FYI this is being addressed with the new European license and the rules training being outsourced from TOC's

Roles requiring degree level candidates command more pay. If the Railway demanded that candidates came pre qualified do you believe that pay would decrease ?

Lack of interested Candidates

Nope and there really and truly is a line of the door, down the street and round the corner. This doesn't actually drop the remun.. pay scale. The line is huge because of the pay. Good job, Good money = Demand. Due to turnover of staff and training requirements (I'll get to those) a high demand is needed to keep depots at establishment levels.

High numbers of candidates is also needed because the failure rate for entry is insane. This is a skill based job and regardless of your academic qualifications you have to pass a test where everyone is considered equal (another reason why demand is high). Those high number of candidates drop considerably after assessment and you get a flip of the supply and demand see saw. Suddenly the supply of candidates are shockingly small. Ergo they can now demand higher rates of pay.

Dangerous

Yes. This is a safety critical role. I have stopped reading Red Alert and the other industry mag that comes to my doorstep because of the page after page of incidents listed. Add in the fact that a single person (you) are responsible for the safety of others and are legally culpable and can face jail time for a tiny infraction then we aren't paid enough.

On this forum, on this very page tere is a thread about assault. In all my years and all my employments I have never witnessed staff continually being assaulted.

Spain ? America ? Both had recent events with loss of life. This is a job where your POTENTIAL for incident is very high.

Too many incidents to mention. Again, I really don't get paid enough :(


That is just a smidgen of what I can post about why Drivers remuneration should be high. I couldn't give a toss about other industries and ignorant comparisons about pay. I will willingly discuss about why I feel my pay should be at the level it is and I can freely comment on previous employment and state how I feel their respective salaries were deserving or undeserving of their pay rates.

There are times when I feel I get paid tooooo much and others where I don't get paid enough.

Aaaannnnnnnddddd I forgot about training requirements....

Yup we pay for our own training. Reduced starter salary due to the training cost of a Driver. Then a probationary period at a reduced salary doing THE SAME job as every other qualified Driver. Considering this is in line with most others sectors (pilots included) I have never given it a second thought. To me this is a non issue but others seem to believe that we have zero qualifications, little training and get paid mega bucks pounds from the get go. Sorry but it really isn't true. The assessment is just the first step on a very high ladder.
 
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ainsworth74

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Well I think we've heard from the defence in some detail now :lol:

Anyone willing to try and justify lower salaries with actual reasons in a similar vein to the above brilliant posts?
 

HarleyDavidson

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What always puzzles me is why do we need all of these expensive tests now, Bourdon, so on & so forth?

Are you likely to use any of that in the day to day driving of a train? NO.

If I were asked to take one of these tests would I pass it? Doubtful, but the difference is today that in the footplate line of promotion, there's no secondmans position, which gave you a good grounding & useful insight into what was involved, now it's straight off the street or out of the guards section. And we still get a fair few failures on the driving courses too, then there's the medical & age retirements too and those who're sacked or just chuck the job in because they've had enough of the harassment that you get from both public & some managers.

If you want to cut costs, cut a whole raft of managers out, there's a significant number of them who don't have a clue about the workings of the railway and the one's who do, are rather oddly forced out of the industry rather rapidly, because they have the skills, the talents and the most important thing of all people skills. Got them and you're on dodgy ground.

I was asked to go into the driver manager grade a few years ago, I declined, because I felt I would have difficulty in telling someone far more senior, skilled and experienced than I, how to do the job. I'm glad I didn't because we have the 4 day week now, pretty good money, we have the potential to earn more than a driver manager and still have loads of time off.

A driver manager's position is dodgy now, you can be moved about at their whim, so you might live in London, but they could move you without any warning or discussion to Bournemouth or Salisbury, you can be called upon at any time of day or night and if you don't fit in, they can get shot of you just like that! In the last 18 months we've lost 6 or 7 really good managers to other companies or just left... I can't think why! Oh yes I can, because they can earn more money as a driver and they don't have the stresses & strains of being a manager.
 
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SPADTrap

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What always puzzles me is why do we need all of these expensive tests now, Bourdon, so on & so forth?

Are you likely to use any of that in the day to day driving of a train? NO.

If I were asked to take one of these tests would I pass it? Doubtful, but the difference is today that in the footplate line of promotion, there's no secondmans position, which gave you a good grounding & useful insight into what was involved, now it's straight off the street or out of the guards section. And we still get a fair few failures on the driving courses too, then there's the medical & age retirements too and those who're sacked or just chuck the job in because they've had enough of the harassment that you get from both public & some managers.

Or other railway positions such as dispatch and platform staff and so on! Trainee train driver courses aren't the only ones to experience candidates dropping out of courses, a few on my flying training scheme failed and BA saw a few of their FPP candidates fail training and BAs selection process is very rigorous. I don't think that says the selection process is inadequate or pointless more just a human variable.
 
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ainsworth74

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Are you likely to use any of that in the day to day driving of a train? NO.

Possibly to help determine if someone is trainable in skills they will use? The tests don't relate to anything you do day to day but they show that you have the capability to be trained successfully? Alternatively perhaps they're an arbitrary way of whittling down the number of candidates ;)
 

HarleyDavidson

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Possibly to help determine if someone is trainable in skills they will use? The tests don't relate to anything you do day to day but they show that you have the capability to be trained successfully? Alternatively perhaps they're an arbitrary way of whittling down the number of candidates ;)

Maybe your right. But for us we always recommend getting games like Simon (4 colour repetition game from the 80's) and Bop-it, to get the reaction skills up to scratch. Bourdon you can download from the web & practice doing.

I can see where the jealousy comes from, as I have said when the sun is out & sky is blue and it's great, it's when you get degraded working that you really earn your dosh.

It may seem easy & a lot of the time it is, but you try dealing with a train full of grouchy commuters & tell them due to train fault they're going to be getting off at the next stop, in the cold & rain and waiting for however long for the next one & their going to be late AGAIN!
 
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W230

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MichaelAMW said:
There is also not really anywhere much to go in professional terms, i.e. most drivers stay drivers, rather as used to be the case with coal miners, who also earned well in the UK. So, whilst teachers and doctors may well train for longer and start on a lower salary, there is the potential to be a deputy head or a consultant, who do earn more. There needs, therefore, to be more of a retention element to the drivers' pay as there is much less that can be offered to meet any desire for progression.
Also a very, valid post amongst many others.

So Orpine, do tell, what is your line of work, your remuneration? You know ours! :D

I would like to evaluate whether I think your pay may be too high or just about right. Whether really, you have the right skill set for your job. I probably don't know anything about it - but that doesn't matter, right? ;)

IMO, (probably incorrectly hahaha), a lot of these posts about drivers pay seem to come from mainly white collar workers who can't seem to quite understand why someone in an unskilled manual job (their opinion) can earn a decent salary when there is no shortage of people to do it. How can it make sense? Well, if you read the posts from HarleyDavidson, ComUtor amongst others then this should help to explain it.

Now, about your pay review...
 

steverailer

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Alot of this is jelousy, drivers still have a good union and are prepared to stick together, something that is very lacking in other industries.

From my limited experience they deserve every penny. I earn similar to them as a OLE linesman. In the course of that work we use road rail trucks upto 26t. Having driven these, which are limited to a max of 20mph, in ice, fog and bad weather whilst on track and knowing how bloody hard it can be to stop in these conditions, I wouldn't like to try it in a full size train. We're luck in that our Machine controllers give us a brief on what is in our work area regarding points, signals, crossings ect, they have to know this for all of their route, which is a damnsite longer than the couple of mile we deal with. Add into this the muppets, sorry, passengers on the stations and the general public who could be about to throw something at them (had this myself in Glasgow and also been shot at with an air rifle).

All in all they deserve every penny, if the rest of you want to earn that then apply, or grow some balls and confront your employer to up your wages.
 

Jamesb1974

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It constantly amazes me that my salary is seen as fair game for debate on a public forum and that some posters seem to think that it compares to X, Y and Z job. I work for a private, profit making company. I do not take a wage from the public purse, yet the pay I earn is seen as fair game for comment (informed and ill informed).

At the risk of repeating what other people have said, if you think you are underpaid compared to a driver FIND ANOTHER JOB THAT PAYS MORE. I did. I left a well paid career to become a driver and now I earn a drivers wage because (Wait for it), I'M A DRIVER. If i wanted to earn a pilot's wage I would have probably retrained as a pilot. It really isn't difficult. You want more money or you think you are underpaid (like 99% of people do), then find something else. It isn't rocket science (another well paying job).

Now, can we find out what some of the other people on here do for a living and discuss their personal finances?
 

DownSouth

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I'm sure there's some truth in this, but what I don't understand in that case is why unions are so seemingly anti-privatisation and desperate for their members to become civil servants?
Because talk is cheap when they know there is no realistic possibility of it happening, of course!

Not only is the talk cheap, but it's actually profitable. A union would go bankrupt if things for their members were so good that nobody would need them so they have to keep up the perception that things are not going well - remember that the first priority of any institution is its own preservation.
 
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