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Driving well below the speed limit

Cross City

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Driving at (say) 58 on a good-quality 60mph road is unlikely to be seen as 'not making good progress', I would suggest.
Well no obviously not, and the inaccuracy/discrepancy in consumer market speedometers will be more than 2mph anyway.

So, in mid-Wales, you have a narrow country lane - Single Track Road with a few passing places, high hedgerows and hence low visibility.

This road is classed as a "National Speed Limit" road - so, the limit is 60mph.

It's a lovely sunny summer's day - conditions are perfect for a nice country drive and if you were on the M50, you'd be absolutely fine at hitting 70mph.

Would you drive at 60mph along this lane? No you would not and if you attempted to in a driving lesson/test, you would almost certainly be removed from driving the vehicle for endangering the life of your instructor/examiner.

I wouldn't even drive at 60mph along some of the A roads in Berkshire even though that is the "limit" because it purely isn't safe to do so even in perfect conditions.

Taking another example, the slip-roads on J10 of the M4 are technically a 70mph limit - I'm not sure I'd want to do 70 around them due to the curvature - are you saying I should?

I'm not sure where I said that I'd expect anyone to drive at 60mph on a very narrow country lane?

By "conditions" I didn't mean just weather. I meant quality of road, safety of the road, time of day etc.
 
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Indigo Soup

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Well no obviously not, and the inaccuracy/discrepancy in consumer market speedometers will be more than 2mph anyway.
It needs to be said, because there are people out there who will insist that 2mph under the limit is intolerably slow. Obviously there isn't a hard-and-fast cutoff in most cases (there are a few minimum speed limits out there), but there's a reason why the standard is 'making reasonable progress', not 'driving at the maximum safe speed'.
Would you drive at 60mph along this lane? No you would not and if you attempted to in a driving lesson/test, you would almost certainly be removed from driving the vehicle for endangering the life of your instructor/examiner.
Where I grew up, there was a single-track back road that went from a 30mph limit to a 60mph limit - then immediately entered a series of blind 'S' bends beginning with a very tight 90 degree corner. Most people using that road braked when the speed limit increased - and those that hadn't, were already well below the 30mph limit.
 

AM9

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It needs to be said, because there are people out there who will insist that 2mph under the limit is intolerably slow. Obviously there isn't a hard-and-fast cutoff in most cases (there are a few minimum speed limits out there), but there's a reason why the standard is 'making reasonable progress', not 'driving at the maximum safe speed'.

Where I grew up, there was a single-track back road that went from a 30mph limit to a 60mph limit - then immediately entered a series of blind 'S' bends beginning with a very tight 90 degree corner. Most people using that road braked when the speed limit increased - and those that hadn't, were already well below the 30mph limit.
There's an extra danger driving on unfamiliar NSL rural lanes that must be appreciated; the locals know every twist, dip and crest of the road - not only where visibility is poor, but much more importantly where glimpses of the road ahead show that it is 'probably' clear. Anybody not familiar with the road naturally proceeds at an approriate cautious pace, but the locals following them apply pressure because they know what the road ahead is 'probably' to be like.
 

styles

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There's an extra danger driving on unfamiliar NSL rural lanes that must be appreciated; the locals know every twist, dip and crest of the road - not only where visibility is poor, but much more importantly where glimpses of the road ahead show that it is 'probably' clear. Anybody not familiar with the road naturally proceeds at an approriate cautious pace, but the locals following them apply pressure because they know what the road ahead is 'probably' to be like.
While I agree to an extent, my driving instructor told me to drive to 'limit points' - that is, I should always be able to stop in the distance of road I can see in front of me. Locals need to drive like this because while they may know every twist and bump, they don't know when there's going to be a cyclist, pedestrian, horse, deer, sheep or skip parked around a corner. Non-locals need to drive like this for the same reason but also because they don't know every twist and bump.

If everybody drove while imagining that there is a skip parked around every corner or after every brow of a hill, and that they'd need to be able to stop for it in time when it appears; they'd be at roughly the same sorts of speeds (barring different national speed limits for different types of vehicles), would make good progress, and remain safe. This approach naturally takes into consideration the quality of the road surface, how wet it is, etc.

Unfortunately I suspect this style of driving isn't taught by many instructors, and may be relegated to the IAM/RoSPA crew.
 

AM9

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However drivers will have differing views on what speed the conditions (of all sorts) allow; Depending especially on their familiarity with the road.
Precisely. A safe speed is being able to stop within the limit of your vision of a clear road. On NSL rural roads, that still leaves the risk of the other person being responsible, - car of similar weight or tractor. The problem is that you in a car cannot account for the other driver's behaviour, so will likely come off a lot worse than the tractor/truck/Land Rover coming the other way.
 

Deepgreen

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For a vast range of reasons, there are a huge number of very poor drivers about. I detest speeding, and respect those who keep to, or just under, the speed limit, but the margin below the speed limit mentioned is dangerous in itself because it encourages recklessness in those caught behind.

Drug-driving is now a scourge and I suspect this is the key to much of it. However, the other issue is that so many people seem to have alarmingly poor spatial awareness when not driving and so just carry that into their vehicles and drive accordingly. It staggers me how so many manage to pass their tests - of course, there are many who have taken their tests so many times before passing that there is surely an argument for not allowing them on the road.

Repeated braking is ridiculous because it is wasteful and inefficient, and, as others have pointed out there is a breed of drivers whose speed never seems to vary no matter what the limit - 40mph on an open 60mph road and the same through 30 or 20mph zones!
 

Ken H

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For a vast range of reasons, there are a huge number of very poor drivers about. I detest speeding, and respect those who keep to, or just under, the speed limit, but the margin below the speed limit mentioned is dangerous in itself because it encourages recklessness in those caught behind.

Drug-driving is now a scourge and I suspect this is the key to much of it. However, the other issue is that so many people seem to have alarmingly poor spatial awareness when not driving and so just carry that into their vehicles and drive accordingly. It staggers me how so many manage to pass their tests - of course, there are many who have taken their tests so many times before passing that there is surely an argument for not allowing them on the road.

Repeated braking is ridiculous because it is wasteful and inefficient, and, as others have pointed out there is a breed of drivers whose speed never seems to vary no matter what the limit - 40mph on an open 60mph road and the same through 30 or 20mph zones!
I blame automatics for the braking thing. They put it in Drive and leave it there then use their brakes rather than using 2 or 1. My sister does that.
 

jfollows

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Wilmslow
I blame automatics for the braking thing. They put it in Drive and leave it there then use their brakes rather than using 2 or 1. My sister does that.
I don’t use anything other than D when driving, but there’s no need for braking all the time if you anticipate. The comments about spatial awareness are germane, I think, because when I had a stroke I was immediately banned from driving, but demonstration of spatial awareness (signed off by my GP) were what allowed me to drive again.
 

Brent Goose

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I have found automatics tend to change up a lot earlier than I might do in a manual, presumably to save on emissions, which might explain some additional braking.

Curious about the reference to 1 and 2 I looked online and couldn’t see it in any of three generations of my car so I wondered if it is still a thing?
 

Peter Mugridge

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While I agree to an extent, my driving instructor told me to drive to 'limit points' - that is, I should always be able to stop in the distance of road I can see in front of me. Locals need to drive like this because while they may know every twist and bump, they don't know when there's going to be a cyclist, pedestrian, horse, deer, sheep or skip parked around a corner. Non-locals need to drive like this for the same reason but also because they don't know every twist and bump.

Precisely. A safe speed is being able to stop within the limit of your vision of a clear road. On NSL rural roads, that still leaves the risk of the other person being responsible, - car of similar weight or tractor. The problem is that you in a car cannot account for the other driver's behaviour, so will likely come off a lot worse than the tractor/truck/Land Rover coming the other way.


On the single track rural roads, it should be driving at the speed where you can stop in half the distance you can see to be clear.

If everyone was driving at the speed in which they could stop in the distance they can see to be clear, there would be rather a lot of head on collisions.
 

AlterEgo

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I blame automatics for the braking thing. They put it in Drive and leave it there then use their brakes rather than using 2 or 1. My sister does that.
There is only the Drive function on many (most?) modern automatics, no more 1-2-3 function. There’s a sport mode but that’s it. My car is a Defender 90, new as of December ‘24.

Some cruise controls use the brakes to take off speed if you’re a fair bit over the speed setting, or will apply them to keep the car at the proper speed when going down a steep hill, when many drivers might feel comfortable just letting the car drift a few mph over the limit.
 

styles

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On the single track rural roads, it should be driving at the speed where you can stop in half the distance you can see to be clear.

If everyone was driving at the speed in which they could stop in the distance they can see to be clear, there would be rather a lot of head on collisions.
Sure, or if overtaking in a lane designated for traffic coming in the opposite direction (or one of the old S3 'suicide lane' roads).
 

Ken H

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I have found automatics tend to change up a lot earlier than I might do in a manual, presumably to save on emissions, which might explain some additional braking.

Curious about the reference to 1 and 2 I looked online and couldn’t see it in any of three generations of my car so I wondered if it is still a thing?
Sorry. Havent driven an automatic this century.
 

jon0844

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1 Feb 2009
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UK
For a vast range of reasons, there are a huge number of very poor drivers about. I detest speeding, and respect those who keep to, or just under, the speed limit, but the margin below the speed limit mentioned is dangerous in itself because it encourages recklessness in those caught behind.

Drug-driving is now a scourge and I suspect this is the key to much of it. However, the other issue is that so many people seem to have alarmingly poor spatial awareness when not driving and so just carry that into their vehicles and drive accordingly. It staggers me how so many manage to pass their tests - of course, there are many who have taken their tests so many times before passing that there is surely an argument for not allowing them on the road.

Repeated braking is ridiculous because it is wasteful and inefficient, and, as others have pointed out there is a breed of drivers whose speed never seems to vary no matter what the limit - 40mph on an open 60mph road and the same through 30 or 20mph zones!

In addition to the drug driving issue, I think there's been a marked change in how much people value their own lives - as you can see clearly when seeing people on bikes or e-scooters at night. For years we see on social media (and some political groups) and health and safety gone mad, and there's an apparent push back on people telling them to do things for their safety. Rules are for other people.

Alphas ignore rules and regulations, and in addition to that, they've seen how they can pretty much go 'and what are you going to do about it?' because they generally get away with it, or get next to no punishment.

I would suggest those with such attitudes aren't the ones driving way below the limit, although if they're under the influence or on their phones messaging, then that would still look the same - although arguably be even more dangerous.

Traffic stops are a rarity these days, with most of them being part of sting operations. What gets me is how these operations (just like when they do stings at stations) are so incredibly successful, yet there doesn't appear to be the resources to do them regularly.
 

Indigo Soup

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There's an extra danger driving on unfamiliar NSL rural lanes that must be appreciated; the locals know every twist, dip and crest of the road - not only where visibility is poor, but much more importantly where glimpses of the road ahead show that it is 'probably' clear. Anybody not familiar with the road naturally proceeds at an approriate cautious pace, but the locals following them apply pressure because they know what the road ahead is 'probably' to be like.
You do also get the other variation - the locals know that such-and-such a point is where the sheep always get out/there's a bad patch/three cars have gone on their roof in the last two years - and moderate their driving accordingly. The result is locals switching between driving with reckless speed, then braking suddenly, with no obvious reason as far as the visitor is concerned.
Traffic stops are a rarity these days, with most of them being part of sting operations. What gets me is how these operations (just like when they do stings at stations) are so incredibly successful, yet there doesn't appear to be the resources to do them regularly.
AIUI, traffic policing is seen as being expensive, unpopular with the public, and 'not proper police work', so it's an easy cut any time funds are running short. The result is that there are very few roads policing units in much of the country.
 

Meerkat

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Whatever the speed limit if a local is tailgating me I let them go by - its just polite (and safer).
Plus you can then use them as a pilot so you can go faster.*
*Did this in Scotland leading to a great drive from Glenfinnan to Mallaig port.
I then got called back by the bloke at the gate.
”sorry I was just following them”
”yeah, he works here…..”
 

mpthomson

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I blame automatics for the braking thing. They put it in Drive and leave it there then use their brakes rather than using 2 or 1. My sister does that.
2 or 1 are really only for going down steep hills to provide engine braking, there's no other reason not to have the vehicle in Drive otherwise.
 

Harpo

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Amidst the discussions about braking is the lesser technique of simply lifting off the accelerator to either create more distance from the vehicle ahead or simply to enter a reduced speed (within reason, e.g. 40 to 30).

It’s also a useful eco technique but the prevalence of highly twitchy braking suggests very few use it.
 

MotCO

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AIUI, traffic policing is seen as being expensive, unpopular with the public, and 'not proper police work', so it's an easy cut any time funds are running short. The result is that there are very few roads policing units in much of the country.
Do the police keep the fines levied, or do they go to the Exchequer? If the police keep the income, they could possibly be self-financing.

(I can't remember when I last saw a patrol car on the motorway - Highways England patrols yes, but not traffic cops.)
 

Indigo Soup

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Do the police keep the fines levied, or do they go to the Exchequer? If the police keep the income, they could possibly be self-financing.
General funds, AIUI. Letting police keep fines creates a set of perverse incentives.
 

mpthomson

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Do the police keep the fines levied, or do they go to the Exchequer? If the police keep the income, they could possibly be self-financing.

(I can't remember when I last saw a patrol car on the motorway - Highways England patrols yes, but not traffic cops.)
All fines go directly to the Exchequer, for reasons which should be obvious. This will then distribute some money back to bodies like the Road Safety Partnerships, but the police don't get a say in the allocations. I drive frequently on motorways and traffic cars, both marked and unmarked are often visible, even if less so than previously.

The only exception to the above is if it's a non-UK vehicle/driver and a fine is issued (so European HGV as the most common example). For those the fine is on the spot so the driver needs to pay by card or cash. The police will take the driver to a cashpoint if needed. All payments are receipted and cash transferred/banked once it's back at the station, so the police don't keep that either.
 

Egg Centric

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Land of the Prince Bishops
For a vast range of reasons, there are a huge number of very poor drivers about. I detest speeding, and respect those who keep to, or just under, the speed limit, but the margin below the speed limit mentioned is dangerous in itself because it encourages recklessness in those caught behind.

Drug-driving is now a scourge and I suspect this is the key to much of it. However, the other issue is that so many people seem to have alarmingly poor spatial awareness when not driving and so just carry that into their vehicles and drive accordingly. It staggers me how so many manage to pass their tests - of course, there are many who have taken their tests so many times before passing that there is surely an argument for not allowing them on the road.

Repeated braking is ridiculous because it is wasteful and inefficient, and, as others have pointed out there is a breed of drivers whose speed never seems to vary no matter what the limit - 40mph on an open 60mph road and the same through 30 or 20mph zones!

One of the problems with drug driving is the decision by Theresa May to set the drug limits at essentially "detectable", rather than "intoxicating". This has had three effects:

  1. Lots of convictions for "drug driving" for people who've eg taken cannabis a couple of days before and are in no sense impaired
  2. As a consequence of above, drug driving losing a lot of stigma especially amongst younger age groups
  3. As a consequence of both of the above, "actual" drug drivers deciding they may as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb
This was easily forseeable at the time

(And in the case of cannabis is leading to a two tier justice system as the wealthy are getting medical marijuana on wafer thin pretexts at which point the drug drive limits no longer apply!)
 

gswindale

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Whatever the speed limit if a local is tailgating me I let them go by - its just polite (and safer).
Plus you can then use them as a pilot so you can go faster.*
*Did this in Scotland leading to a great drive from Glenfinnan to Mallaig port.
I then got called back by the bloke at the gate.
”sorry I was just following them”
”yeah, he works here…..”
How can you tell they're a local, other than the fact they're driving like a lunatic?
 

Meerkat

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How can you tell they're a local, other than the fact they're driving like a lunatic?
That and what they drive is often a significant clue!
Anyway, it’s good to be positive and anger makes you a bad driver - just let them go and tell yourself that they are in a justified hurry.
 

styles

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Whatever the speed limit if a local is tailgating me I let them go by - its just polite (and safer).
Plus you can then use them as a pilot so you can go faster.*
*Did this in Scotland leading to a great drive from Glenfinnan to Mallaig port.
I then got called back by the bloke at the gate.
”sorry I was just following them”
”yeah, he works here…..”
I'm not sure this is a great tactic.

You have to make a (educated) guess that somebody is a local, not just someone who drives faster than yourself.

Then you have to follow at such a distance that you could stop if they stopped urgently.

I suspect following a vehicle in this way over-focusses the driver on the car in front rather than the road, conditions, surroundings.

Lastly if you drive to limit points, it'll be far safer. If the driver in front drives to limit points, you'll naturally end up speed matching them unless your vehicles are wildly different acceleration/braking specs.

As I've learnt with motorbiking, "Ride your own ride."
 

Meerkat

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I'm not sure this is a great tactic.

You have to make a (educated) guess that somebody is a local, not just someone who drives faster than yourself.

Then you have to follow at such a distance that you could stop if they stopped urgently.

I suspect following a vehicle in this way over-focusses the driver on the car in front rather than the road, conditions, surroundings.

Lastly if you drive to limit points, it'll be far safer. If the driver in front drives to limit points, you'll naturally end up speed matching them unless your vehicles are wildly different acceleration/braking specs.

As I've learnt with motorbiking, "Ride your own ride."
It’s not tailgating, just using how much they slow down as a guide for how tight the corner is rather than driving blind. Means you can be smoother. You usually know if they are reasonable or dangerous from how they behaved behind you and whilst overtaking.
Its less relevant now as satnav is your co-driver - really useful in the Alps on whether the next bend is a corner or a mad hairpin!
The best advice I heard as an enthusiastic young driver was “what happens if you are coming the other way”. Actually means I’m more cautious overtaking than some people who think they are careful - I’m concerned about my 21year old self coming round that corner in the distance!
 

styles

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It’s not tailgating
I didn't say it was :)

just using how much they slow down as a guide for how tight the corner is rather than driving blind.
Means you can be smoother. You usually know if they are reasonable or dangerous from how they behaved behind you and whilst overtaking.
Yes but as I pointed out, this is far from flawless, in fact if you did this on a driving test you could end up failing - if the driver in front takes a corner too quickly, you do too, you both end up in a hedge. That's not a good thing.

Its less relevant now as satnav is your co-driver - really useful in the Alps on whether the next bend is a corner or a mad hairpin!
I'd also caution against relying on the angles suggested by satnav/online maps to be quite honest. There's a corner near our village which is a tight 90 degree turn, but if you check it on Waze it looks quite gentle. Possibly why there's been police tape on the outside of it for the past few weeks after a Corsa ended up in the hedge.

The best advice I heard as an enthusiastic young driver was “what happens if you are coming the other way”. Actually means I’m more cautious overtaking than some people who think they are careful - I’m concerned about my 21year old self coming round that corner in the distance!
Indeed, I think this is not dissilimar to following limit points, just a slightly different definition.

That said, I'm quite keen on overtaking, but if I'm overtaking I know I need to be able to see double the distance I can stop in (assuming I'm driving on the 'other' side of the road), else one times the distance I need to stop in is fine.
 

Peter Sarf

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I blame automatics for the braking thing. They put it in Drive and leave it there then use their brakes rather than using 2 or 1. My sister does that.
I used to drive manuals all the time where I always felt a sense of failure if I slowed down actually having to use the brakes.
When I started driving automatics a lot I found the challenge was greater but still possible.
In both cases I found dropping a gear was mostly too harsh a speed drop for my requirements and if I did need to slow down that much the brake was more effective and quicker.
It was all about anticipation.
In addition to the drug driving issue, I think there's been a marked change in how much people value their own lives - as you can see clearly when seeing people on bikes or e-scooters at night. For years we see on social media (and some political groups) and health and safety gone mad, and there's an apparent push back on people telling them to do things for their safety. Rules are for other people.

Alphas ignore rules and regulations, and in addition to that, they've seen how they can pretty much go 'and what are you going to do about it?' because they generally get away with it, or get next to no punishment.

I would suggest those with such attitudes aren't the ones driving way below the limit, although if they're under the influence or on their phones messaging, then that would still look the same - although arguably be even more dangerous.

Traffic stops are a rarity these days, with most of them being part of sting operations. What gets me is how these operations (just like when they do stings at stations) are so incredibly successful, yet there doesn't appear to be the resources to do them regularly.
Oh yes.
I have been a passenger in cars driven by someone who wants to prove they can go fast.
I have been a passenger in cars driven by someone who is very nervous.
The first is very "interesting", the second can be tiring.
Knowing the dangers and consequences I would rather be in the overcautious drivers car rather than sharing an accident with an over confident ignorant fool.
Guess which cars get the dings.
 

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