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E Scooters on Trains

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43066

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I suspect most TOCs will ban these during 2022.

They are already openly carried and used all over the railway network, including on TfL where they’re already prohibited. I doubt a further ban will make any difference.

The most effective thing is probably to properly legalise them so as to allow mainstream sale of decent ones. This would reduce the appeal of the dangerous knock-offs which may be unsafe.
 
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headshot119

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I suspect most TOCs will ban these during 2022.

The implications of a battery fire on board a train are quite hideous - part of the current problem is that the illegality of riding them leads to people purchasing such devices from less reputable suppliers leading to poor quality and therefore a higher risk of a fault.

The battery capacity of one of these things is significantly more than your average phone or laptop - if you want to see what happens to a defective Lithium Iron battery in a e-Scooter and imagine it happening on board a crowded train, watch this:

Just because a Lithium Ion battery (Not Iron) is in an electric scooter doesn't make it any more or less dangerous than any lithium ion battery.

Will you be kicking off when lithium ion battery technology is introduced to power trains?
 

northernbelle

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Just because a Lithium Ion battery (Not Iron) is in an electric scooter doesn't make it any more or less dangerous than any lithium ion battery.

Will you be kicking off when lithium ion battery technology is introduced to power trains?
Yes it does actually. The problem is the suspect quality of the Lithium Ion batteries and associated hardware we're seeing brought onto trains at the moment - due in part I think due to their illegality. Another factor is that they're underslung on a scooter and more prone to getting damaged.

I'm not kicking off - just stating facts and predicting where TOCs are about to head with this issue, but thanks for the attitude nonetheless.

They are already openly carried and used all over the railway network, including on TfL where they’re already prohibited. I doubt a further ban will make any difference.

The most effective thing is probably to properly legalise them so as to allow mainstream sale of decent ones. This would reduce the appeal of the dangerous knock-offs which may be unsafe.
Indeed - fully agree
 

headshot119

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Yes it does actually. The problem is the suspect quality of the Lithium Ion batteries and associated hardware we're seeing brought onto trains at the moment - due in part I think due to their illegality. Another factor is that they're underslung on a scooter and more prone to getting damaged.

I'm not kicking off - just stating facts and predicting where TOCs are about to head with this issue, but thanks for the attitude nonetheless.


Indeed - fully agree

And how are they anymore suspect than the rampant quantity of dodgy lithium iron power banks people carry around everyday on trains? A hint they're not.
 

northernbelle

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And how are they anymore suspect than the rampant quantity of dodgy lithium iron power banks people carry around everyday on trains? A hint they're not.
The difference is that e-Scooters are illegal to ride in the UK and this is reflected in the repute of many of the places you can buy them from. Mobile phones, power banks and laptops are perfectly legal and arguably the quality of such devices is generally better than we're seeing in e-Scooters at present. e-Scooter batteries are also considerably larger and more explosive in the right circumstances.

Clearly TfL and several TOCs already deem the risk is too great and have banned them. My original point was that I expect many other TOCs to follow suit.
 

AM9

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Exactly, they have been a pain to deal with for a few years now. People riding them on platforms and concourses being the main one, plus there's the charging issue onboard trains.

The legal side of it just makes it very simple for TOCs to say a big fat no.
Furthermore, they are not legal on footpaths, therefore the public areas on railway property are effectively pedestrian areas so the precedent is there to ban them. It's also interesting to note that dangerous behaviour on stations mirrors that on pavements, so not surprising that some here think they should be allowed on the railway, conveniently forgetting their frequent misuse and general unsuitability for use in all pedestrian areas.
 
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Non Multi

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The difference is that e-Scooters are illegal to ride in the UK and this is reflected in the repute of many of the places you can buy them from. Mobile phones, power banks and laptops are perfectly legal and arguably the quality of such devices is generally better than we're seeing in e-Scooters at present.

Clearly TfL and several TOCs already deem the risk is too great and have banned them. My original point was that I expect many other TOCs to follow suit.
They can be ridden on private land, which is why the police aren't cracking down on these actually being sold.

Hire scheme e-scooters are of course fully legal to ride, but are usually geo-fenced so they stay within the defined hire zone.
 

northernbelle

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They can be ridden on private land, which is why the police aren't cracking down on these actually being sold.

Hire scheme e-scooters are of course fully legal to ride, but are usually geo-fenced so they stay within the defined hire zone.
Indeed. The hire scheme scooters also tend to be much heavier and solidly-built than the personal ones. Not to mention that the battery charging is done in a dedicated facility with the batteries simply exchanged on the street if necessary.

I'm not sure if the hire companies permit their scooters to be carried on trains? Voi, for example, cover an area of Bristol within which a number of rail journeys could be made.
 

bengley

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The difference is that e-Scooters are illegal to ride in the UK and this is reflected in the repute of many of the places you can buy them from. Mobile phones, power banks and laptops are perfectly legal and arguably the quality of such devices is generally better than we're seeing in e-Scooters at present. e-Scooter batteries are also considerably larger and more explosive in the right circumstances.

Clearly TfL and several TOCs already deem the risk is too great and have banned them. My original point was that I expect many other TOCs to follow suit.
They are not illegal to ride in the UK.

They are perfectly legal to ride on private land with the permission of the landowner.

They should not be banned from trains, it's a ridiculous knee jerk reaction. They don't just catch fire unless they've been damaged, or they are being charged inappropriately.
 

northernbelle

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They are not illegal to ride in the UK.

They are perfectly legal to ride on private land with the permission of the landowner.

They should not be banned from trains, it's a ridiculous knee jerk reaction. They don't just catch fire unless they've been damaged, or they are being charged inappropriately.
Ok - let's add some context then. Where in the UK can you legally ride a personal e-Scooter to a railway station?

Quite aside from the fire risk, there have been a number of serious injuries and deaths resulting from e-Scooter riders being in collision with other people or objects.

I'd venture that most people find the things a total menace and would be glad to be shot of them.
 

AM9

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They are not illegal to ride in the UK.

They are perfectly legal to ride on private land with the permission of the landowner.

They should not be banned from trains, it's a ridiculous knee jerk reaction. They don't just catch fire unless they've been damaged, or they are being charged inappropriately.
Because they are lagal to ride on private land that doesn't qualify them to be allowed on the railway which might be 'private land' in a strictly legal sense, but the railway is a public place and unless the railway accepts liability for all injuries and damage cause by their use on their land it should refuse.
The inconvenient fact about these 'private land only' vehicles is that they have been extensively illegally used on pavements and other pedestrian areas, in some cases causing harm to legitimate users of that infrastructure, so their riders cannot trused in a railway environment which is far more hazardous that pavements.
 

Non Multi

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I'm not sure if the hire companies permit their scooters to be carried on trains? Voi, for example, cover an area of Bristol within which a number of rail journeys could be made.
Depends if the stations are within their geo-fence. If not, I suspect either it won't be allowed to work, the brake will lock on, an alarm will sound, and you'll be in hot water with the hire firm.
 

Donny85

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Furthermore, if mobility scooters are allowed on trains, batteries and all, then what's the difference?
A mobility scooter is intended for those with reduced mobility, who are protected under the Equality Act. E-scooters obviously don’t serve the same purpose.

Whilst most owners probably wouldn’t ride them on a platform, concourse or train, some possibly would. Equally the same goes for charging them onboard. They are illegal to use (except for the previously mentioned exceptions) yet people still use them contrary to the law. If there are people happy the break the law, what’s the chances they will follow a TOCs rules when it come to riding on their property or charging onboard. Some TOCs therefore probably find it safer for all to ban them outright.
 

SCDR_WMR

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They are not legal to be ridden on footpaths. Like bicycles, it is legal to carry or push them there.
Indeed, but who is pushing along an e-scooter? Some do on platforms, but the majority I see are ridden.
 
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AM9

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They are not legal to be ridden on footpaths. Like bicycles, it is legal to carry or push them there.
You are correct in the strict sense that they can be carried, however thanks to the behaviour of the majority of current owners, scooters will effectively be banned from pedestrian areas.
 

Jonno271

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A mobility scooter is intended for those with reduced mobility, who are protected under the Equality Act. E-scooters obviously don’t serve the same purpose.

Whilst most owners probably wouldn’t ride them on a platform, concourse or train, some possibly would. Equally the same goes for charging them onboard. They are illegal to use (except for the previously mentioned exceptions) yet people still use them contrary to the law. If there are people happy the break the law, what’s the chances they will follow a TOCs rules when it come to riding on their property or charging onboard. Some TOCs therefore probably find it safer for all to ban them outright.
You've missed the point of my sentence entirely. I was commenting on battery safety, not legality.
 

meld3

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Zero logic to banning these compared to E-Bikes.
Both have 2 wheels and can be operated manually (pedalling or scooting), and are painful in a crash.
These are part of the future answer to reducing carbon, no question.
But they are dangerous cry the anti's - except when you pay the council £10 a day, then they are safe.....
 

Bletchleyite

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But they are dangerous cry the anti's - except when you pay the council £10 a day, then they are safe.....

It's a trial to be fair. In my view the outcome of the trial needs to be legalisation under the same rules as e-bikes with a requirement for UKCA approval of the scooter (to check for a safe battery and provision of lights plus a 10mph speed limit).
 

cornishjohn

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They are not legal to be ridden on footpaths. Like bicycles, it is legal to carry or PUSH them there.
Are you sure about pushing? A 15 year old friend of mine once got "done" for pushing a motor bike in a public park, nowhere near a road.
 

Bletchleyite

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Are you sure about pushing? A 15 year old friend of mine once got "done" for pushing a motor bike in a public park, nowhere near a road.

Fairly sure the reason why pavement parking can't be prosecuted as the offence of driving on the footway (which does exist) is because a vehicle being parked there isn't evidence that it wasn't pushed there, which is legal.
 

Ediswan

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They are not legal to be ridden on footpaths. Like bicycles, it is legal to carry or push them there.
Careful here. Footpaths, bridleways etc. are about what you have a right to do. The landowner can permit use beyond those rights. There is no law banning either riding cycles or e-scooters on footpaths crossing private land, it would be a matter of trespass.

Opinions seem to vary on whether you have the right to push a cycle along a footpath. I don't believe it has ever got to court. Never had any problem myself.

Are you sure about pushing? A 15 year old friend of mine once got "done" for pushing a motor bike in a public park, nowhere near a road.
@Bletchleyite was referring to pushing pedal cycles, not motor bikes. Public parks often have byelaws prohibiting all sorts of things.
 

hwl

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It's a trial to be fair. In my view the outcome of the trial needs to be legalisation under the same rules as e-bikes with a requirement for UKCA approval of the scooter (to check for a safe battery and provision of lights plus a 10mph speed limit).
A 10mph speed limit would remove a lot of the usefulness, the ones involved in the official trials are 15.5mph (25kph) limited...

I've seem some locally that can do 40mph up hill (the owner was at least wearing a motorbike crash helmet and high vis.)
 

AM9

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Fairly sure the reason why pavement parking can't be prosecuted as the offence of driving on the footway (which does exist) is because a vehicle being parked there isn't evidence that it wasn't pushed there, which is legal.
However obstruction can be prosecuted and the law is being reinforced to the same standard as the London area giving local authorities the power to stop parking (anything) on a public footpath. To date scooters and cycles - especially hired ones, are proving to be not only a nuisance but in some cases a hazard to legitimate pavement users.
 

SargeNpton

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Here in Northampton the delivery robots pick fights with the e-scooters.
 

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Bletchleyite

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A 10mph speed limit would remove a lot of the usefulness, the ones involved in the official trials are 15.5mph (25kph) limited...

13mph in MK, I think the different trials are trialling different speeds. I got a faulty one once and it wouldn't go past 10, and it was so much nicer to ride.
 

al78

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Zero logic to banning these compared to E-Bikes.
Both have 2 wheels and can be operated manually (pedalling or scooting), and are painful in a crash.
These are part of the future answer to reducing carbon, no question.
But they are dangerous cry the anti's - except when you pay the council £10 a day, then they are safe.....
E-bikes are different from E-scooters. E-bikes (the legal ones) cannot move under their own power, the motor can only provide assistance to pedalling up to about 15 mph and has a limited power output. This ensures E-bikes come under the same category as conventional bicycles. E-scooters are closer to motorbikes.

Opinions seem to vary on whether you have the right to push a cycle along a footpath. I don't believe it has ever got to court. Never had any problem myself.
If you are walking and pushing a bicycle, you are a pedestrian. I fail to see how it is different from pushing a trolley.
 

AM9

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E-bikes are different from E-scooters. E-bikes (the legal ones) cannot move under their own power, the motor can only provide assistance to pedalling up to about 15 mph and has a limited power output. This ensures E-bikes come under the same category as conventional bicycles. E-scooters are closer to motorbikes.


If you are walking and pushing a bicycle, you are a pedestrian. I fail to see how it is different from pushing a trolley.
A bicycle would be similar to a trolley in that respect but for far too many there is the unresistable temptation to ride them.
 

Bletchleyite

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E-bikes are different from E-scooters. E-bikes (the legal ones) cannot move under their own power, the motor can only provide assistance to pedalling up to about 15 mph and has a limited power output. This ensures E-bikes come under the same category as conventional bicycles. E-scooters are closer to motorbikes.

Legally that's where they sit, but this is fallacious as their low speed makes them practically more like e-bikes.
 
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