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East Coast Timetable Dec 24

Nicholas Lewis

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I suggest presenting this Government with a list of the additional infrastructure investments that need to made (including those on which the planned new East Coast Mainline timetable was originally based which the Government then cancelled in spending cuts while still expecting all the original benefits to be delivered) in order to deliver the new East Coast Mainline timetable which this Government announced in the budget last month as definitely happening in December 2024.
If the 4hr timetable was so dependent on all the infrastructure enhancements why on earth has the industry wasted anytime on trying to replan a timetable that is never going to work. Also again the industry has no leader that is prepared to put their head above the parapet and tell the DfT a it is.
 
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Nicholas Lewis

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It sounds to me that this is exactly what has happened.
If you mean the recent letter from NRs Timetable assurance team as quoted in this months MR seeks to shine a light on the issues of missing enhancements which maybe fair enough but why did any plan get this far if its fundamentally unachievable. To my mind Andrew Haines ought to have pointed this out to the DfT after the last time the revised timetable was aborted. As it now stands the industry looks foolish yet again although given the fragility of the ECML all too often and the ongoing train crew issues it does seem better to kick it into the long grass its not as if this govt is going to have defend it not happening now!
 

CarrotPie

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Gareth Dennis on Twitter (I know...) is saying it has now been deferred, apologies I can't quote directly as I'm on mobile: https://twitter.com/GarethDennis/status/1778080907036873214?t=BsYmcKITtNszIWjqi-W48Q&s=19

Despite the source I believe this to be correct, the decision was confirmed yesterday as I understand it.
I'll quote it for you:

Okay, table stakes that Huw is lying about the HS2 funding given this project was funded and mostly complete before Sunak's HS2 cancellation.

Bigger question: given Dec 24 timetable has been pulled, how long after June 2025 will passengers see any benefits from this project?
 

43074

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I'll quote it for you:
Thanks!

Context is in relation to the Transport Minister stating that the Hope Valley capacity enhancement has been made possible by HS2 funding, hence the first sentence about Huw Merriman's statement.
 
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Gareth Dennis on Twitter (I know...) is saying it has now been deferred, apologies I can't quote directly as I'm on mobile: https://twitter.com/GarethDennis/status/1778080907036873214?t=BsYmcKITtNszIWjqi-W48Q&s=19
Despite the source I believe this to be correct, the decision was confirmed yesterday as I understand it.
Its correct.
You mean the December 2024 timetable change on the East Coast Mainline has been cancelled? Is there going to be an official announcement?
In view of the statement in the budget and all the discussions at Transport for the North meetings surely there should be an official announcement that the December 2024 timetable change on the East Coast Mainline will not go ahead?!
At Spring Budget, the government is giving the green light to the next section of East West Rail, accelerating works to allow services from Oxford to Bedford to run by the end of the decade. It is also upgrading the timetable on the East Coast mainline from December 2024, delivering the benefits from £4 billion of government investment by providing faster and more frequent services between London and Yorkshire, Newcastle, the North East, and Edinburgh.
 

The Planner

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You mean the December 2024 timetable change on the East Coast Mainline has been cancelled? Is there going to be an official announcement?
In view of the statement in the budget and all the discussions at Transport for the North meetings surely there should be an official announcement that the December 2024 timetable change on the East Coast Mainline will not go ahead?!
Its not happening in Dec 24. Ive no doubt there will be a proper announcement.
 

HamworthyGoods

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Its not happening in Dec 24. Ive no doubt there will be a proper announcement.

As it was announced as going ahead in the last budget and we are now in Purdah for local elections on 2nd May there won’t be able to be a formal announcement until after then.
 

Class 466

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Can always rely on one of these “transport experts” on Twitter to publicly announce something before it’s actually meant to be public knowledge as is implied here.
 

800001

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Can always rely on one of these “transport experts” on Twitter to publicly announce something before it’s actually meant to be public knowledge as is implied here.
He probably doesn’t even know for sure, will of just heard rumours like everyone else.
 

JJmoogle

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As it was announced as going ahead in the last budget and we are now in Purdah for local elections on 2nd May there won’t be able to be a formal announcement until after then.
The invoking of Purdah as a reason why things like operational aspects of the railway can't be announced is to me an incredibly new concept and seems to be a mistaken one.

 

Clarence Yard

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The postponement shouldn’t be announced by the DfT during an election period but there is no reason for NR not to announce it because officially, as the Infrastructure Manager, it is actually their shout.
 

BrianW

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The postponement shouldn’t be announced by the DfT during an election period but there is no reason for NR not to announce it because officially, as the Infrastructure Manager, it is actually their shout.
It's all someone else's fault. The Spring Budget was sooo long ago; and November so far away. Apparently there might be a General Election sometime, and time enough for a reshuffle or two, and for some NR and/or heads to fall or scapegoats to be cast into the wilderness. Passengers (customers)- who are they and why should they care or be cared about? One could despair, or sigh ;)
 

Starmill

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To my mind Andrew Haines ought to have pointed this out to the DfT after the last time the revised timetable was aborted.
My understanding is that it was communicated, both officially and unofficially, at that time that the journey time improvements which the Department has been very keen on for some years are not deliverable without sacrifices by many stakeholders, especially any rail users to and from Northallerton, Alnmouth and Bewick-upon-Tweed. Notably a good portion of which users would actually be part of the Conservative target voter or existing base, but of course that's nowt to do with Network Rail.

The changes likely would have been deliverable if the timetable had sacrificed those stakeholder interests, but of course that's not really the play here. They're not deliverable while trying to preserve a decent service on all of those intermediate flows.
 

Peregrine 4903

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My understanding is that it was communicated, both officially and unofficially, at that time that the journey time improvements which the Department has been very keen on for some years are not deliverable without sacrifices by many stakeholders, especially any rail users to and from Northallerton, Alnmouth and Bewick-upon-Tweed. Notably a good portion of which users would actually be part of the Conservative target voter or existing base, but of course that's nowt to do with Network Rail.

The changes likely would have been deliverable if the timetable had sacrificed those stakeholder interests, but of course that's not really the play here. They're not deliverable while trying to preserve a decent service on all of those intermediate flows.
That's not the main issue with the timetable. The main issue is with freight paths.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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My understanding is that it was communicated, both officially and unofficially, at that time that the journey time improvements which the Department has been very keen on for some years are not deliverable without sacrifices by many stakeholders, especially any rail users to and from Northallerton, Alnmouth and Bewick-upon-Tweed. Notably a good portion of which users would actually be part of the Conservative target voter or existing base, but of course that's nowt to do with Network Rail.

The changes likely would have been deliverable if the timetable had sacrificed those stakeholder interests, but of course that's not really the play here. They're not deliverable while trying to preserve a decent service on all of those intermediate flows.
So nothing had changed from the previous attempt to create a new timetable to deliver the benefits the expenditure on the enhancements were supposed to give seems a whole load of time has been wasted here to create the same outcome. Also not sure how any of the incomplete enhancements like extra track north of Huntingdon would ever solve the stations you've listed above.
 

Clarence Yard

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Actually, I do.

One of the key constraints on the ECML is the ability to present at various junctions at the right time. So you need infrastructure in the right place to allow you to do so. Even infrastructure miles away from the crucial interface. Huntingdon to Peterborough unlocks so much on the ECML because you lose that constraint that pins down the times further north.
 

Nicholas Lewis

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Actually, I do.

One of the key constraints on the ECML is the ability to present at various junctions at the right time. So you need infrastructure in the right place to allow you to do so. Even infrastructure miles away from the crucial interface. Huntingdon to Peterborough unlocks so much on the ECML because you lose that constraint that pins down the times further north.
Well best we spend some of that phase 2A saving sorting it out first before spend more on schemes further up the line enabling more services only see it not be realised because the key constraint hasn't been remedied.
 

takethegame

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Actually, I do.

One of the key constraints on the ECML is the ability to present at various junctions at the right time. So you need infrastructure in the right place to allow you to do so. Even infrastructure miles away from the crucial interface. Huntingdon to Peterborough unlocks so much on the ECML because you lose that constraint that pins down the times further north.

The miraculously disappearing Woodwalton to Huntingdon four tracking you mean? Would that really unlock that much?

Four tracking all the way to PBO from Huntington would no doubt unlock much more, but would it even be possible/not ridiculously expensive due to the local geology and you'd still be stuck with Digwell Viaduct to contend with.
 

Clarence Yard

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It wasn’t four tracking all the way but re-instating on the up allows for more overtaking moves, which unlocks presentation times at Peterborough.

Welwyn viaduct will always prove a constraint but the less points where the presentation time has to be fixed, the better.

Where the DfT (and NR) fail is looking at timetable solutions that give an internal fix to the (lack of) infrastructure issues but ignore the fact that the ECML is part of a larger interlocking puzzle and those other trains cannot just be moved to suit internal ECML services.

This ESG process was carried out in an exceptionally poor way, a complete contrast to how NR carried out the Eureka process 15 years ago. That was effectively the prototype ESG and, from the start, was much more focussed on hard timetabling with funders interference (and there was some!) kept firmly in the background.
 

BrianW

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It wasn’t four tracking all the way but re-instating on the up allows for more overtaking moves, which unlocks presentation times at Peterborough.

Welwyn viaduct will always prove a constraint but the less points where the presentation time has to be fixed, the better.

Where the DfT (and NR) fail is looking at timetable solutions that give an internal fix to the (lack of) infrastructure issues but ignore the fact that the ECML is part of a larger interlocking puzzle and those other trains cannot just be moved to suit internal ECML services.

This ESG process was carried out in an exceptionally poor way, a complete contrast to how NR carried out the Eureka process 15 years ago. That was effectively the prototype ESG and, from the start, was much more focussed on hard timetabling with funders interference (and there was some!) kept firmly in the background.
ESG? Environmental, Social and Governance?
Eureka?
 

43074

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ESG? Environmental, Social and Governance?
Eureka?
ESG - Event Steering Group. Network Rail jargon for the group who (attempt to) write the timetable.

Eureka - the name of the project which planned the May 2011 timetable change which was the last East Coast rewrite on this scale
 

Verulamius

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What are the key constraints to solve this puzzle?

Clarence Yard has mentioned providing a fourth track on the up from Woodwalton to Huntingdon.

What else is the minimum necessary?
 

HamworthyGoods

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What are the key constraints to solve this puzzle?

Clarence Yard has mentioned providing a fourth track on the up from Woodwalton to Huntingdon.

What else is the minimum necessary?

Additional network capacity is also needed north of Northallerton as originally proposed.
 

The Planner

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ESG - Event Steering Group. Network Rail jargon for the group who (attempt to) write the timetable.

Eureka - the name of the project which planned the May 2011 timetable change which was the last East Coast rewrite on this scale
Its a bit more than that, it considers all aspects such as infrastructure readiness (or not), TOC training, timetable change risks, operational readiness, performance, engineering access changes and so on.
 
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Welwyn viaduct will always prove a constraint but the less points where the presentation time has to be fixed, the better.
This could surely be eased a bit by reducing the service at Welwyn North from two trains an hour to one train an hour or fewer. There is a much better service at Welwyn Garden City.
 

BrianW

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ESG - Event Steering Group. Network Rail jargon for the group who (attempt to) write the timetable.

Eureka - the name of the project which planned the May 2011 timetable change which was the last East Coast rewrite on this scale
Its a bit more than that, it considers all aspects such as infrastructure readiness (or not), TOC training, timetable change risks, operational readiness, performance, engineering access changes and so on.
Thanks. So ... the kind of considerations that went into the electrification of the GWML, improvements at Castlefield, on Thameslink and the introduction of Crossrail Elizabeth Line (and maybe HS2?) ?
I appreciate the difficulties (well, some of them maybe?) of making plans and changes, and the need for lessons to be learned, and applied ... Not as easy as may be thought/ hoped.
 

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