East Midlands Railway overcrowding issues

[david1212]

..... First we got shunted out from Euston Road to Cambridge St for Eurostar, then we virtually lost 25% of our platforms to East Midlands Regional trains and now with the common 2 x 5 cars on one platform, if your'e in the furthest unit with an Advance ticket you have along trek to the far end and all in 10.1 seconds if the inbound train is running a bit late. I'm mobility impaired but do not need assistance, and I feel that the great Cities of Leicester, Nottingham, Derby, Chesterfield? and Sheffield have drawn the short straw yet again. Finally, confusion reigns when the platform opens to passengers and in the sprint, non regular travellers with EMR become confused on which train is theirs.

St Pancras, as a complete rebuild, is effectively one of the most modern stations in the country, yet there was so little future-proofing in the design that it's that station the dictates a special build of train to work into it because the platforms are so short (and too few, and with poor access). The Midland cities did indeed draw the short railway straw once again.

Of course if the freight terminal land had been retained for railway use instead of used for the British Library even though across Midland Road the Midland Mainline platform ends could still be close to Euston Road.

 

[WildNorthlands]

EMR do have this tool to help you find less busy services don't know how accurate it is...https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/travel-information/seat-finder

 

[cactustwirly]

This doesn't surprise me, the Meridian services were packed even before the HSTs were withdrawn.
It was short sighted to replace them without a proper replacement, and now they are paying the consequences.
Leicester and Nottingham in particular have seen cuts to capacity as a result.

 

[BJames]

EMR do have this tool to help you find less busy services don't know how accurate it is...https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/travel-information/seat-finder

Put in Nottingham to London St Pancras on Saturday there - the results are pretty clear and in line with what I expected.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Of course if the freight terminal land had been retained for railway use instead of used for the British Library even though across Midland Road the Midland Mainline platform ends could still be close to Euston Road.

Though that land (already disused) was allocated for the BL soon after the battle to stop the heart of Bloomsbury (the 7 acres between the BM and the Hawksmoor Church) being knocked down was won by the local inhabitants - ie 50 years back. So decades before anyone had decided to turn the national terminus at St P into an international shopping mall.

 

[Mikey C]

As an aside, the railway needs to quickly revise its pricing policies, if trains are running around half empty in the Monday morning peak (a popular WFH day), but are rammed on a Saturday

 

[paddy1]

Two of the five cars on some of these 222 services are entirely first class, which makes it even worse than before the conversion and is totally disproportionate to the amount of standard accommodation available. One of these first class carriages really should be converted to standard to redress the balance. I'm sure the Dft stepped in to compel GWR to do this with their HST fleet prior to them being replaced with new trains?

 

[Failed Unit]

Nah. Only when the races are on or Sheffield - Manchester is shut. Otherwise a 2 car is busy but manageable, though don't get me wrong - it is unrecognisable from 153 days.

Grimsby to Nottingham often leaves people behind and is wedged even with 3 cars - that includes the section from Grimsby to Lincoln that used to be a 153.

I do hope that the "December 2022" is implemented at some point. The one that would have pushed Grimsby - Leicester to hourly. I know show term they still have work to do to actually get the current timetable implemented. But it does make me wonder if the gaps were filled if that would improve things on some routes. Still lots of gaps from the trains pulled to ensure EMR could run the timetable reliably so services such as Peterborough - Lincoln have a worse service now then they did before the change.

I suspect with the DfT tinkering the "December 2022" timetable will be forgotten (I am sure it needed the ECML restructure)

The current Grimsby - Leicester does well, imagine how good it would be if it connected at Lincoln into the London services (although some of the extra passengers could be TPE avoiding passengers)

 

[Sleepy]

Two of the five cars on some of these 222 services are entirely first class, which makes it even worse than before the conversion and is totally disproportionate to the amount of standard accommodation available. One of these first class carriages really should be converted to standard to redress the balance. I'm sure the Dft stepped in to compel GWR to do this with their HST fleet prior to them being replaced with new trains?

Reading commuters complaining about standing for 25 minutes (often with seats at rear of train) seemed to have more influence than those travelling from Kettering or Market Harborough ?

 

[cactustwirly]

Reading commuters complaining about standing for 25 minutes (often with seats at rear of train) seemed to have more influence than those travelling from Kettering or Market Harborough ?

For Christ sake, it wasn't just Reading commuters.
Feel free to travel on a GWR service to Bristol and see how busy it is!

 

[bobster1001]

I remember having to wait an extra hour for the next train from Nottingham to Kettering because the one we were meant to get was dangerously full. Again another case of them using a 5 car train on a route which requires a lot more. On the way up we were standing from Leicester to Derby as well.

 

[gazzaa2]

I remember having to wait an extra hour for the next train from Nottingham to Kettering because the one we were meant to get was dangerously full. Again another case of them using a 5 car train on a route which requires a lot more. On the way up we were standing from Leicester to Derby as well.

EMR and Cross Country just don't put enough carriages on most of their services. They might cope through the week, but they don't on a weekend.

 

[Scott1]

Unfortunately it won't change without pressure from MPs. They operate the fleet the DfT grant them. East Midlands has always had too few carriages in some routes.

 

[TheBigD]

Unfortunately it won't change without pressure from MPs. They operate the fleet the DfT grant them. East Midlands has always had too few carriages in some routes.

EMR certainly weren't fully operating their mainline fleet last weekend. On the Saturday, out of the 27 x 222 and 4 x 180, just 13 sets were utilised.
From 2 per hour to Nottingham, plus 2 per hour to Sheffield, the service was halved and not a single train strengthened.
The Corby to London was also cut back to Wellingborough to London and again reduced by half, though all services were 8 car.

 

[QSK19]

Unfortunately it won't change without pressure from MPs. They operate the fleet the DfT grant them. East Midlands has always had too few carriages in some routes.

Something which I think will continue for decades with the insufficient number of 810s ordered in order to operate the planned service level. IIRC, half of services were planned to be 10-car, which would have required 31 of the 33 in service.

IMO, several more units really do need ordering whilst the production line is still open; but that’s easier said than done. So, it’ll be new stock, same overcrowding problems.

 

[andy1571]

Two of the five cars on some of these 222 services are entirely first class, which makes it even worse than before the conversion and is totally disproportionate to the amount of standard accommodation available. One of these first class carriages really should be converted to standard to redress the balance.

The ones that ended up with two first class carriages (IIRC 222005/006/103/104) have a section of declassified seating in the coach adjoining the rest of standard. It’s marked by labels on the tables and antimacassars, although first class signage is still present on the exterior and windows.

Keep it a secret though, it’s about the only way to get a half-civilised environment on a 5-car most of the time!

 

[Dr Hoo]

EMR certainly weren't fully operating their mainline fleet last weekend. On the Saturday, out of the 27 x 222 and 4 x 180, just 13 sets were utilised.
From 2 per hour to Nottingham, plus 2 per hour to Sheffield, the service was halved and not a single train strengthened.
The Corby to London was also cut back to Wellingborough to London and again reduced by half, though all services were 8 car.

(Recognising that there was engineering work that required diversions via Corby, thinning out of frequencies and truncation of the electric service at Wellingborough) so this was just a straightforward decision to save money by keeping 18 out of 31 units in the depot?

Who is taking these decisions?

(I drove to Leicester by the way.)

 

[TheBigD]

Something which I think will continue for decades with the insufficient number of 810s ordered in order to operate the planned service level. IIRC, half of services were planned to be 10-car, which would have required 31 of the 33 in service.

IMO, several more units really do need ordering whilst the production line is still open; but that’s easier said than done. So, it’ll be new stock, same overcrowding problems.

Reported in Modern Railways a while back that the original plan was for 31 out of 33 unites needed, hence the (now discarded) plan to keep the 4 x 180s.

Realistically, you'd plan for around 28/29 out of 33 units. The base timetable requires 19 units, so that will leave you with 9/10 for strengthening, so around 50% of services could be 10 car, assuming that the sets are used all day and not just at peak times.

There will still be an increase in capacity, the 27 x 222s and 4 x 180s being replaced by 33 x 810s.

Assuming Wikipedia is correct...
The 27 x 222s have a total of 1618 1st and 5206 std seats .
The 180s have around 160 1st and 900 std seats.
The 33 x 810 have a total of 1551 1st and 8382 std seats.
And south of Kettering may/will get 12 car 360s at some point.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Two of the five cars on some of these 222 services are entirely first class, which makes it even worse than before the conversion and is totally disproportionate to the amount of standard accommodation available. One of these first class carriages really should be converted to standard to redress the balance. I'm sure the Dft stepped in to compel GWR to do this with their HST fleet prior to them being replaced with new trains?

That's not strictly true - the coach behind the driving coach on 5 cars is a composite. It's only the 7 cars that have that, and one of the reasons was for London - Sheffield; in H.S.T.-only days there were 'Cutler' sets with 3xTFO
On Sunday 19th last the up Sheffield train I caught had the MC declassified, not sure how usual this is.

 

[43055]

EMR do have this tool to help you find less busy services don't know how accurate it is...https://www.eastmidlandsrailway.co.uk/travel-information/seat-finder

Put in Nottingham to London St Pancras on Saturday there - the results are pretty clear and in line with what I expected.

Not just the London services but also the local ones. Not sure how often the seat finder is updated as Derby - Nottingham shows a full 2ph service which has not run for almost 2 years and Derby to Stoke shows the first reduced timetable in 2021 which was largely 2 hourly.

 

[andy1571]

That's not strictly true - the coach behind the driving coach on 5 cars is a composite. It's only the 7 cars that have that, and one of the reasons was for London - Sheffield; in H.S.T.-only days there were 'Cutler' sets with 3xTFO
On Sunday 19th last the up Sheffield train I caught had the MC declassified, not sure how usual this is.

I think the reference was regarding those that have recently been reformed; 4 of the 5-car units do now have two first class carriages, albeit one is partially declassified.

 

[43074]

Realistically, you'd plan for around 28/29 out of 33 units. The base timetable requires 19 units, so that will leave you with 9/10 for strengthening, so around 50% of services could be 10 car, assuming that the sets are used all day and not just at peak times.

That is quite a big assumption considering at the moment the only 10 cars on a weekday are a dozen or so peak services to/from London and the 1002 from St Pancras and 1237 from Sheffield! What evidence is there that EMR will run more services as double sets after the 810s are introduced?

 

[Merle Haggard]

I think the reference was regarding those that have recently been reformed; 4 of the 5-car units do now have two first class carriages, albeit one is partially declassified.

The 222/1s were extended to 5 cars by coaches from the 7 cars; 2 received MFs and two, MSs. In the two that received MFs I'm pretty sure that the MF was placed next to the DMF, and the former MCs (which had less first class, and to a lower standard, than the 222/0 MCs) were placed in the middle of the set, The MCs are declassified, and about half of each MF was also declassified to give the same 1st/2nd proportions as the MCs in the 222/0s. Initially, the declassification was done by paper notices, but more recently the 'First' label on the appropriate windows has been removed. Anecdotally, travelling in a half declassified former MF the stewards clearly accept that the further half of the catch is indeed standard. The downgraded firsts all retain 2+1 seating, of course.
It does seem to lead to confusion; I've been on trains where staff have pointed out to standard ticket passengers that part of the MF is declassified and they then sit throughout the coach, arguing that all the seats look the same...

 

[TheBigD]

That is quite a big assumption considering at the moment the only 10 cars on a weekday are a dozen or so peak services to/from London and the 1002 from St Pancras and 1237 from Sheffield! What evidence is there that EMR will run more services as double sets after the 810s are introduced?

No evidence, just speculation as to what a best case scenario could be.
I expect most services to be just 5 cars like now, unless there is a big jump in passenger numbers.

 

[WizCastro197]

The 20:02 service from St Pancras to Sheffield has started from Leicester, and is now running as a 2 coach 170 instead of a (I assume) 5 coach 222. I assume this service may be busy if all passengers are to be crammed into 2 coaches.

EDIT: EMR seat finder show this service as being 'crowded', although this seems to be an algamation of data collected from a a certain period, so demand today could well be different.

 

[DannyMich2018]

We travelled on Sat from Kettering to Leicester. Services were diverted via Corby and Melton due to engineering works. 10.20 from Kett was 7 car 222 and full (and filthy dirty couldn't see inside well), next train 10.40 5 car 222 also full. We didn't wanna stand for about 50 mins to Leicester so we took rail replacement bus to Market Harborough then Leicester instead, these are really intended for Mk Harborough passengers but still okay to use as had valid tickets.

 

[sheff1]

Quicker and more relaxing to travel to London via Tamworth when Corby diverts operating . less than 2 hours from Derby and 8 car trains on the electric service to Euston

Not much use when you are travelling from Sheffield to Leicester though. I was on the same train as the OP. As far as I could tell, some were unable to board at Loughborough.

The overcrowding on Saturday was compounded by three events all known well in advance (i) Lecester Rugby being at home (always attracts heavy traffic from as far away as Sheffield), (ii) an England u-21 football international in Leicester and (iii) Derby County playing away at Peterborough. Spectators for all three events were in my carrage with (i) being in the majority.

If EMR were only able to run an hourly service via the diversionary route due to capacity restraints the services should have been double units (enough were seemingly available).
Another alternative might be to run shuttles north of Leicester in the normal (withdrawn) paths, but I don't know if the platforms there could handle that.


As an aside, I got extremely cheap Advance tickets booking just a couple of days ahead. Sems a bit strange when the train was guaranteed to be busy, but I am not complaining

 

[Andy Pacer]

EMR certainly weren't fully operating their mainline fleet last weekend. On the Saturday, out of the 27 x 222 and 4 x 180, just 13 sets were utilised.
From 2 per hour to Nottingham, plus 2 per hour to Sheffield, the service was halved and not a single train strengthened.
The Corby to London was also cut back to Wellingborough to London and again reduced by half, though all services were 8 car.

Glad despite living a few mins from Leicester Station I travelled by car to Nuneaton and used Avanti. Only £20 return as well.

 

[paddy1]

The ones that ended up with two first class carriages (IIRC 222005/006/103/104) have a section of declassified seating in the coach adjoining the rest of standard. It’s marked by labels on the tables and antimacassars, although first class signage is still present on the exterior and windows.

Keep it a secret though, it’s about the only way to get a half-civilised environment on a 5-car most of the time!

Lol.

 

[londonmidland]

East Midlands Railway services have really been suffering on both their Intercity and Regional services over the past 24 hours, due to the planned closure of the WCML, causing a significant amount of extra passengers onto their services.

Significant overcrowding has occurred as a result, leaving passengers behind.

Queuing systems have also been in place at their terminals including St. Pancras, Sheffield and Nottingham.

I wonder what joys today (Saturday the 8th) will bring…

The photo below shows the overcrowding issues experienced at St. Pancras yesterday (Friday) afternoon.