East-West Rail (EWR): Oxford-Bletchley construction progress

[12LDA28C]

For 'aspiration' read 'never going to happen.' Poor old Aylesbury. EWR would have been a real boost. It is surrounded by HS2 and EWR works causing massive disruption and wrecking the countryside but there is zero benefit for the town, which seems to be destined to be forever stuck at the end of an interminably slow branch line.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Plans I've seen clearly show that when the railway is reinstated north of Quainton, it will be a 90mph line.

And if you can't see the benefit of HS2 just because it doesn't directly benefit all the locations along the line of construction then you need to remove your blinkers and look at the bigger picture.

 

[Falcon1200]

For 'aspiration' read 'never going to happen.' Poor old Aylesbury. EWR would have been a real boost.

I believe it will happen, not as soon as we would like, but eventually; Because a route linking Aylesbury to other large places such as Milton Keynes, Bletchley and Bedford is definitely worthwhile.

 

[Kingham West]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Plans I've seen clearly show that when the railway is reinstated north of Quainton, it will be a 90mph line.

And if you can't see the benefit of HS2 just because it doesn't directly benefit all the locations along the line of construction then you need to remove your blinkers and look at the bigger picture.

The Aylesbury route is in the Act, you would presumably need a new act of Parliament to remove it.
It is needed for waste traffic also .
I can’t see any reason why it won’t go ahead .

 

[12LDA28C]

The Aylesbury route is in the Act, you would presumably need a new act of Parliament to remove it.
It is needed for waste traffic also .
I can’t see any reason why it won’t go ahead .

Absolutely, although of course you don't need a 90mph line for slow-speed waste traffic, and yet that is what is being built.

Bucks County Council, local town councils and businesses are fully behind the 'Aylesbury Spur' and the benefits of potentially connecting Buckinghamshire's only City, County Town and most populated town by rail should not be underestimated.

 

[Bletchleyite]

MK of course isn't any longer in Buckinghamshire, but yes, the economic benefits to Aylesbury of connecting it to MK by rail (mostly that way round, I'd imagine, as Aylesbury has far less employment than MK does) would be significant. The ability to easily connect by rail to Manchester and Scotland would probably also make Aylesbury a more attractive business base.

Of course at the moment Councils have trouble finding funds to help this sort of project due to being capped. I do like the idea of removing that cap and allowing local democracy to work properly that is being talked about for Thursday...

 

[12LDA28C]

MK of course isn't any longer in Buckinghamshire

Since when?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Since when?

The Milton Keynes Unitary Authority (now known as Milton Keynes City Council*) was, according to Wikipedia, created on 1st April 1997. It is totally independent from Buckinghamshire Council (itself now a unitary). OK, it's physically in what people might consider ceremonial Buckinghamshire, but that's no different from saying that Liverpool is in Lancashire, though a little more recent.

What that means is that what happens in MK isn't the concern of Buckinghamshire Council, though it might still consider promoting the link because it would help the economy of Aylesbury and wider Buckinghamshire to be connected to a place of high local employment and a popular leisure destination.

* While I know it likes showing off about actually now being a city, I was surprised it took that name, as the term "City Council", like "Borough Council", is usually used for a lesser layer of administration that sits under a County Council or other structure.

 

[fishwomp]

The Aylesbury route is in the Act, you would presumably need a new act of Parliament to remove it.

Don't know about that. An authorization to build is not a compulsion.

It is needed for waste traffic also .

Only to 1 mile south of the former Claydon Jct. Would also work fine with 30 mph and single track.

I can’t see any reason why it won’t go ahead .

Because the money to do it has to come from Network Rail - HS2 is paying for the groundworks, but there's more than that required. I hope it will happen, but as a project, this part scarcely seems to get any media attention.

 

[12LDA28C]

Don't know about that. An authorization to build is not a compulsion.

Only to 1 mile south of the former Claydon Jct. Would also work fine with 30 mph and single track.

Because the money to do it has to come from Network Rail - HS2 is paying for the groundworks, but there's more than that required. I hope it will happen, but as a project, this part scarcely seems to get any media attention.

As stated, it's being laid with a 90mph line north of Quainton

 

[Mikey C]

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Plans I've seen clearly show that when the railway is reinstated north of Quainton, it will be a 90mph line.

And if you can't see the benefit of HS2 just because it doesn't directly benefit all the locations along the line of construction then you need to remove your blinkers and look at the bigger picture.

To be fair (and I'm a supporter of HS2), the construction of it around Aylesbury is very disruptive, especially as it's running on the surface (unlike most of the route through London and the Chilterns), with little benefit to the town itself. It's not like places on the WCML which will get a better service once HS2 opens.

 

[cle]

As stated, it's being laid with a 90mph line north of Quainton

So the track work is being done, but the passenger service isn’t funded?

Or would other work like signalling be needed too, or loops/doubling?

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be fair (and I'm a supporter of HS2), the construction of it around Aylesbury is very disruptive, especially as it's running on the surface (unlike most of the route through London and the Chilterns), with little benefit to the town itself. It's not like places on the WCML which will get a better service once HS2 opens.

I think EWR has actually been more disruptive, as someone who lives not that far from Aylesbury. The minor road closures have been far in excess of what was actually necessary, and the uncertainty and poor publicity surrounding them have harmed local business.

HS2 works don't look pretty, but I haven't noticed as much actual disruption from them.

 

[12LDA28C]

To be fair (and I'm a supporter of HS2), the construction of it around Aylesbury is very disruptive, especially as it's running on the surface (unlike most of the route through London and the Chilterns), with little benefit to the town itself. It's not like places on the WCML which will get a better service once HS2 opens.

HS2 is not supposed to benefit Aylesbury. That does not mean it shouldn't be built. I'm afraid I'm not understanding your point.

A new bypass is being built around Preston. It will not benefit me directly, doesn't mean I should be opposed to the project.

So the track work is being done, but the passenger service isn’t funded?

Or would other work like signalling be needed too, or loops/doubling?

No, it's a single line although clearly some signalling work would need to be done to properly upgrade to 90mph running, mainly as there currently aren't any signals, being a long section accessed by token (before the line was closed)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course HS2 would benefit Aylesbury if the link to MK is built, as they'll then be able to connect onto the improved classic line services at MKC rather than being stuck on a stub branch.

(There may also be some benefit from people railheading to MKC, to be fair, and to Tring for services into London - a lot of people from the south and east side of Aylesbury just head to Tring for London as the service is both much better and cheaper)

 

[Mikey C]

HS2 is not supposed to benefit Aylesbury. That does not mean it shouldn't be built. I'm afraid I'm not understanding your point.

A new bypass is being built around Preston. It will not benefit me directly, doesn't mean I should be opposed to the project.

That bypass around Preston benefits the people of Preston, so they get the benefit as well as the disruption.

With high speed railways, unlike stopping trains or indeed road schemes, local areas get the disruption without the benefit, as the trains go straight through, hence their unpopularity on the route.

The point I was replying to, was that if Aylesbury has to endure the HS2 and EWR work, but doesn't get the EWR services to MK, they'd have all the disruption without any benefit.

 

[12LDA28C]

That bypass around Preston benefits the people of Preston, so they get the benefit as well as the disruption.

With high speed railways, unlike stopping trains or indeed road schemes, local areas get the disruption without the benefit, as the trains go straight through, hence their unpopularity on the route.

The point I was replying to, was that if Aylesbury has to endure the HS2 and EWR work, but doesn't get the EWR services to MK, they'd have all the disruption without any benefit.

Indeed, but the good citizens of Aylesbury should be looking at the bigger picture and realise that the benefits that HS2 will bring to much of the nation will vastly outweigh the disruption caused in the local area during construction. It's rather small-minded to say 'it won't benefit me' or 'I won't be using it' and use that as a basis for opposition to the project. And that's coming from someone who lives in Aylesbury.

 

[zwk500]

The point I was replying to, was that if Aylesbury has to endure the HS2 and EWR work, but doesn't get the EWR services to MK, they'd have all the disruption without any benefit.

Indeed, but the good citizens of Aylesbury should be looking at the bigger picture and realise that the benefits that HS2 will bring to much of the nation will vastly outweigh the disruption caused in the local area during construction. It's rather small-minded to say 'it won't benefit me' or 'I won't be using it' and use that as a basis for opposition to the project. And that's coming from someone who lives in Aylesbury.

The introduction of a new service should not be predicated on it being 'compensation' of any kind. It should be based on whether or not people will use it in sufficient numbers. IMHO, there is enough traffic to justify a rail link between the two towns, but if a report shows that there isn't, then fair enough. Putting the link in at a high standard does seem slightly strange if there is not even a strategic pathway to an MK-Aylesbury service though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The introduction of a new service should not be predicated on it being 'compensation' of any kind. It should be based on whether or not people will use it in sufficient numbers. IMHO, there is enough traffic to justify a rail link between the two towns, but if a report shows that there isn't, then fair enough. Putting the link in at a high standard does seem slightly strange if there is not even a strategic pathway to an MK-Aylesbury service though.

There's plenty of traffic between the two. I'm not saying it'd be profitable (none of EWR will, regional routes generally aren't), but you'd certainly get decent custom. It'd be a lot busier than the Marston Vale.

 

[zwk500]

There's plenty of traffic between the two. I'm not saying it'd be profitable (none of EWR will, regional routes generally aren't), but you'd certainly get decent custom. It'd be a lot busier than the Marston Vale.

Given the majority of the traffic would be commuters to MK, this is definitely a case where modest subsidy would be justified for wider benefits, as reducing pressure on parking and traffic in and around MK is a good thing.

 

[The Planner]

Only to 1 mile south of the former Claydon Jct. Would also work fine with 30 mph and single track.

No, the agreement with FCC at Calvert and their new facility requires the route to the south as that is where the traffic is.

 

[12LDA28C]

Given the majority of the traffic would be commuters to MK, this is definitely a case where modest subsidy would be justified for wider benefits, as reducing pressure on parking and traffic in and around MK is a good thing.

Plenty of leisure travel and shoppers at weekends I would suggest as well. Indeed, BR used to run 'Christmas Shoppex' trains from Aylesbury to Milton Keynes in the late 1980s to cater for the many people in the area who wanted to go to MK by train for some retail therapy. And that was when parking was free in Central Milton Keynes, which it certainly isn't these days.

 

[zwk500]

Plenty of leisure travel and shoppers at weekends I would suggest as well. Indeed, BR used to run 'Christmas Shoppex' trains from Aylesbury to Milton Keynes in the late 1980s to cater for the many people in the area who wanted to go to MK by train for some retail therapy. And that was when parking was free in Central Milton Keynes, which it certainly isn't these days.

Shoppers are more likely to drive, I'd guess. It's a fair old hike from MKC to C:MK, and although the bus is quite cheap for the hop up it's still a faf with bags etc. There's really not much leisure around MK Central, if I was heading to the theatre district I'd drive. Main leisure travel on weekends in MK is either heading for London or the Dons (although they're not exactly raking in the crowds)

 

[cle]

Surely Aylesbury-MKC is for jobs primarily. Many jobs - and many within walking distance in CMK. And direct car replacement, if the service is good. Shopping is secondary - but folks might still use it for that. It might be a few harder-to-find fashion items, vs a grocery shop, easily done in Aylesbury.

WCML connections - sure. But I think Aylesbury being a biggest business draw due to WCML connections is a reach. It's a dormitory/local service town, and will remain as such. And those connections will be useful for locals outbound, I doubt they'll instigate much inbound new travel to Aylesbury. Let's just build a ton more houses there, Bicester more so as it has the Oxford (and better London) links too.

 

[Sonik]

WCML connections - sure. But I think Aylesbury being a biggest business draw due to WCML connections is a reach. It's a dormitory/local service town, and will remain as such. And those connections will be useful for locals outbound, I doubt they'll instigate much inbound new travel to Aylesbury. Let's just build a ton more houses there, Bicester more so as it has the Oxford (and better London) links too.

As a WCML northbound connection, it does serve places further south too. The alternative being the schlep into London and back, or more realistically, the car.

There is a large swathe of Bucks that is poorly served and the roads aren't great either, with many local traffic issues. I can understand why the area would want to get behind getting this connection done.

 

[12LDA28C]

Surely Aylesbury-MKC is for jobs primarily. Many jobs - and many within walking distance in CMK. And direct car replacement, if the service is good. Shopping is secondary - but folks might still use it for that. It might be a few harder-to-find fashion items, vs a grocery shop, easily done in Aylesbury.

WCML connections - sure. But I think Aylesbury being a biggest business draw due to WCML connections is a reach. It's a dormitory/local service town, and will remain as such. And those connections will be useful for locals outbound, I doubt they'll instigate much inbound new travel to Aylesbury. Let's just build a ton more houses there, Bicester more so as it has the Oxford (and better London) links too.

If you know anything about Aylesbury, you'll know that thousands of houses have been built in the last few years with many more currently under construction at various new developments around the town with very little in the way of new infrastructure to support the thousands of new residents. 30,000 further new homes are due to be built in Aylesbury Vale by 2041.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely Aylesbury-MKC is for jobs primarily. Many jobs - and many within walking distance in CMK. And direct car replacement, if the service is good. Shopping is secondary - but folks might still use it for that. It might be a few harder-to-find fashion items, vs a grocery shop, easily done in Aylesbury.

I think the Marston Vale provides evidence that people, particularly environmentally conscious and possibly carless young people, would use it for a shopping Saturday out. Before Primark opened in Bletchley, Saturday morning/lunchtime Marston Vale trains had decent loadings of young people heading to Bedford, and similar in the afternoon with their Primark bags. And there's still a reasonable walk from Bedford station to the town (not up a big hill and not as far, admittedly, but still a reasonable walk, and unlike from MKC there's not a frequent bus service to the shops, and some groups will grab a taxi that would probably be cheaper than 4 bus fares).

I reckon you'll get some Winslow-MKC custom for that purpose on the Oxfords too. Not everyone wants to go to Bicester Village.

 

[willgreen]

I think the Marston Vale provides evidence that people, particularly environmentally conscious and possibly carless young people, would use it for a shopping Saturday out. Before Primark opened in Bletchley, Saturday morning/lunchtime Marston Vale trains had decent loadings of young people heading to Bedford, and similar in the afternoon with their Primark bags. And there's still a reasonable walk from Bedford station to the town (not up a big hill and not as far, admittedly, but still a reasonable walk, and unlike from MKC there's not a frequent bus service to the shops, and some groups will grab a taxi that would probably be cheaper than 4 bus fares).

I reckon you'll get some Winslow-MKC custom for that purpose on the Oxfords too. Not everyone wants to go to Bicester Village.

I don't think many environmentally friendly young people would necessarily be purchasing large quantities of clothes from Primark!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think many environmentally friendly young people would necessarily be purchasing large quantities of clothes from Primark!

It was more an example of people using seemingly-unattractive services to go shopping than that Aylesburyites would go by train to MKC specifically for Primark. Though some people might.

 

[zwk500]

I think the Marston Vale provides evidence that people, particularly environmentally conscious and possibly carless young people, would use it for a shopping Saturday out. Before Primark opened in Bletchley, Saturday morning/lunchtime Marston Vale trains had decent loadings of young people heading to Bedford, and similar in the afternoon with their Primark bags. And there's still a reasonable walk from Bedford station to the town (not up a big hill and not as far, admittedly, but still a reasonable walk, and unlike from MKC there's not a frequent bus service to the shops, and some groups will grab a taxi that would probably be cheaper than 4 bus fares).

I reckon you'll get some Winslow-MKC custom for that purpose on the Oxfords too. Not everyone wants to go to Bicester Village.

BIB - the walk from Bedford station to Bedford town centre is less than 15 minutes and pretty much flat, compared to the 20-30 minutes and up a noticeable gradient. But agree you'll get Aylesbury and Winslow-Bletchley and MKC custom for some shopping/leisure uses.

I don't think many environmentally friendly young people would necessarily be purchasing large quantities of clothes from Primark!

You'd be surprised how people will object to 'obvious' sources of pollution but then completely neglect stuff even at just 1 degree of separation. Very much out of sight, out of mind.

 

[Noddy]

* While I know it likes showing off about actually now being a city, I was surprised it took that name, as the term "City Council", like "Borough Council", is usually used for a lesser layer of administration that sits under a County Council or other structure.

Off topic but Birmingham, Manchester, Glasgow, Belfast, Leeds, Sheffield, Liverpool are all unitary “City Councils”! It’s probably more unusual not to be… (Cardiff, Edinburgh are the notable large examples)