Edinburgh Tram developments

[CallySleeper]

Presumably if you want a day return you use the £8 ticket. If you want to use buses or make more journeys on the tram that day you use the £9 one (or catch the 35 out of the airport and pay a lot less...)

From what I can see, the price of a ridacard hasn't increased much in recent years. But given that it now includes unlimited tram and day and night bus travel, including airport tram and bus services at no extra cost, how much money stands to be lost here? Two airport day tickets a week would offset the cost of the card.

Four options I can see:
- Increase ridacard fares
- Put in place an additional 'airport fee' (a bit like the £1.50 + ridacard you used to pay on night buses)
- Introduce an airport ridacard (similar to ELB ridacard)
- Say ridacards aren't valid to the airport.

 

[Deerfold]

Four options I can see:
- Put in place an additional 'airport fee' (a bit like the £1.50 + ridacard you used to pay on night buses)
- Introduce an airport ridacard (similar to ELB ridacard)
- Say ridacards aren't valid to the airport.

I can see these being unpopular with airport employees - I don't know about Edinburgh but at most airports these are a large proportion of those using public transport to airports.

A couple of years ago we visited Edinburgh for a long weekend. We ended up getting a weekly ridacard each as the 100 stopped right outside our hotel and it seemed to be worth it for the faster journeys.

 

[CallySleeper]

I can see these being unpopular with airport employees - I don't know about Edinburgh but at most airports these are a large proportion of those using public transport to airports.

Agreed. But as I say, other than unwitting tourists, I'm not sure where money will be made here.

Here in Nottingham, yes NET is integrated into the wider network, but trentbarton don't include tram travel in their 'travelcard' products. There is a seperate tram-only day ticket, but there is a 'kangaroo' day ticket which includes all tram and bus travel (regardless of operator) in the city area - albeit at a higher price. It's almost as if TfE need to price the tram at a more premium rate, and not just for airport passengers.

(That said, despite this model, NET is actually cheaper than the parallel bus route)

 

[Deerfold]

Agreed. But as I say, other than unwitting tourists, I'm not sure where money will be made here.

Here in Nottingham, yes NET is integrated into the wider network, but trentbarton don't include tram travel in their 'travelcard' products. There is a seperate tram-only day ticket, but there is a 'kangaroo' day ticket which includes all tram and bus travel (regardless of operator) in the city area - albeit at a higher price. It's almost as if TfE need to price the tram at a more premium rate, and not just for airport passengers.

(That said, despite this model, NET is actually cheaper than the parallel bus route)

Interesting - I've not been on NET since tb took over - it was handy having it included in NCT's ticket - did this increase people's spending on the tram significantly do you think?

 

[CallySleeper]

Hard to say, a day kangaroo is only 70p I think more than NCT's day ticket - but season tickets are better value. NET also do a range (tram only) season tickets, and tb mangos can also now be used.

 

[ninja-lewis]

And if the Ingliston P&R is in the 'Airport Zone', then they're basically forcing people to pay an extra £1 each way to and from town if they want to continue using it.

Curious that it coincides perfectly with the 12 being cut back so there's now going to be no bus service from Ingliston P&R to Princes Street. :roll:
There's also going to be no service from there to the zoo either, so I'm predicting a lot of unhappy people this summer.

Originally the "premium fare" zone was West of Gogar (the tram depot). Ingliston P&R and Gogarburn (RBS) were to have fares of £2.50. That was abandoned in January and now both stops will be the standard £1.50 fare.

 

[oldman]

The message (improve airlink and high prices on the tram) seems clear enough - we don't want travellers using the tram to go to the airport. Workers can buy a ridacard or use the 35. It's a local service for local people.

 

[MCR247]

Agreed. But as I say, other than unwitting tourists, I'm not sure where money will be made here.

Here in Nottingham, yes NET is integrated into the wider network, but trentbarton don't include tram travel in their 'travelcard' products. There is a seperate tram-only day ticket, but there is a 'kangaroo' day ticket which includes all tram and bus travel (regardless of operator) in the city area - albeit at a higher price. It's almost as if TfE need to price the tram at a more premium rate, and not just for airport passengers.

(That said, despite this model, NET is actually cheaper than the parallel bus route)

It has been possible to use mango on the tram since April https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/MANGO

 

[tbtc]

Not a huge surprise that some tram trips require a premium fare compared to the equivalent bus trip - same happens in most places - the popularity of Supertram in Sheffield has seen people prepared to pay more than the cheaper parallel bus services.

Similarly, not really surprising that the Airport tickets are more than those from nearby stops - the Airlink service has always been a "premium" route (though Ridacards valid, for regular passengers).

The bus changes look reasonable (frustrating for Ratho passengers to have lost their direct service into the city - especially as the 12 was a downgrading from the previous 48), but there was no direct service for many years (IIRC the 36 went no further than the Gyle?). Interesting increase in evening/ sunday services (since these have seen cuts in other parts of the UK in recent years - when there are fewer pensioners etc about).

Does anyone know whether the double deckers for the 49 will be cascades? Presumably so (but, if so, from which route)?

Compare Edinburgh spending £700m-odd to get one line, with Manchester spending about twice that (on Metrolink phase 3) to get five. I realise there are all sorts of ifs and buts that could be made around that comparison but there's a strong argument that Edinburgh hasn't got value for money.

I think that it's worth remembering that the Edinburgh costs include digging up the city centre (whilst almost all of the recent Metrolink lines are on railway lines/ old railway lines, so a lot cheaper).

Any extension to the Edinburgh operation (beyond St A Sq) should be a lot cheaper (per km).

Most of the "Circulars" if not all have been withdrawn and I wonder whether this has had the effect of artificially inflating carryings, as many journeys that previously could have been completed with one trip now require two trips, perhaps putting the much hyped "success" of Lothian Buses in a new light?

Serious question - how many links have been lost when the old circulars went? There may have been people in Lochend who wanted to shop at Cameron Toll (old 42/46) for example, but I'm struggling to think of any major "flows" that aren't served nowadays by replacement services (a lot of the time there's a direct route between two places, instead of going round in a circle). Certainly don't think that it'll have had any big impact on passenger numbers.

 

[edwin_m]

I think that it's worth remembering that the Edinburgh costs include digging up the city centre (whilst almost all of the recent Metrolink lines are on railway lines/ old railway lines, so a lot cheaper).

Any extension to the Edinburgh operation (beyond St A Sq) should be a lot cheaper (per km).

Metrolink Phase 3 includes about 2km of street running in Droylsden, about 1km in Oldham, 500m in Rochdale and quite a bit on the Airport line. The street running in Edinburgh is about 2km. So I think Manchester have got at least double the amount of street track built for double the money, which means that this factor can't directly account for the cost difference. Manchester's suburban street track may have been a bit cheaper and easier than Edinburgh's city centre track - but was this intrinsic to the construction or to do with how it was managed?

I know many of the cancelled bits of the Edinburgh Tram were on old railways and would therefore have been cheaper and easier than what has been built. However any further extension it is almost certain to be down Leith Walk - and isn't this largely on-street as well?

 

[CallySleeper]

It has been possible to use mango on the tram since April https://www.trentbarton.co.uk/MANGO

I know, thanks - this is about the only exception to the rule. It's also not complete integration because the zigzag cap on the buses doesn't include tram travel and vv.

 

[Techniquest]

£5 single from the airport into town on the tram? That is a fair bit of ching, £5 day return yes that would be pretty good but ouch to the single fare.

Rather glad I don't use EDB very often!

 

[90019]

It's quite clearly not:

Sorry, I misread that this morning.

Though of course a day (or longer) pass will be valid on the tram at no additional cost.

Which is more expensive, as it can currently be done in a single trip in each direction, meaning you only need two singles.
It also adds the complication of having to change at the Gyle to get to the zoo, and I can't see many people using the tram for that, since the tram stop is about a 200 yard walk across the car park from all the bus stops (which are also at the front door of the Gyle).

The bus changes look reasonable (frustrating for Ratho passengers to have lost their direct service into the city - especially as the 12 was a downgrading from the previous 48), but there was no direct service for many years (IIRC the 36 went no further than the Gyle?). Interesting increase in evening/ sunday services (since these have seen cuts in other parts of the UK in recent years - when there are fewer pensioners etc about).

To be honest, a lot of the people that get on at Ratho outwith the peaks are only going as far as the Gyle anyway.
Clearly RBS have kicked up a fuss about the X12, which is why it's not getting cut completely.

Does anyone know whether the double deckers for the 49 will be cascades? Presumably so (but, if so, from which route)?

Nobody seems too sure, as there are no new deckers currently on order, as far as I'm aware, just the single deck hybrids that are in the process of being delivered.
I've heard rumours of some of the old 500s being brought back out of storage, but I'm not convinced there's anything in that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So, in a sentence: the tram will be slower, less frequent, and more expensive than the bus to the airport.

And not stop as close to the terminal building, either.

 

[edwin_m]

I know, thanks - this is about the only exception to the rule. It's also not complete integration because the zigzag cap on the buses doesn't include tram travel and vv.

Competition Commission put some restrictions on interavailable tickets a few years ago, which I believe was the reason NCT and trams stopped being interavailable and may be the reason for this one too.

 

[MCR247]

Competition Commission put some restrictions on interavailable tickets a few years ago, which I believe was the reason NCT and trams stopped being interavailable and may be the reason for this one too.

I'm pretty sure that you could use NCT tickets on the tram for as long as they ran it

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is the system definitely going to be up-and-running in the next few weeks as was promised ?

 

[Zoidberg]

Is the system definitely going to be up-and-running in the next few weeks as was promised ?

The launch date has been published as 31st May and there are plenty of the vehicles flitting to and fro clogging up the streets in the centre of the city, so it looks good (is that the right word?) to go.

From http://www.edinburghtrams.com/news/tram-launch-date-announced

The Edinburgh Trams passenger service will begin on 31st May 2014. The confirmation of the May 'go live' date comes as Edinburgh Trams approach the final stages of a period of rigorous testing, commissioning and driver training in preparation for the return of trams to Scotland's Capital.

 

[kylemore]

Is the system definitely going to be up-and-running in the next few weeks as was promised ?

Yes it was a commitment to open in "May 2014" and it will open on the last possible date to comply with that on 31st May!
Which doesn't say much for their confidence in the operation after more or less SIX MONTHS of testing, did any of the Manchester Lines need 6 months of "testing"?

 

[snowball]

did any of the Manchester Lines need 6 months of "testing"?

Depends how you define the period of testing. Some of them must have been more than six months from the first run for gauge testing to public opening, especially at the height of the TMS problems a couple of years ago.

 

[edwin_m]

I'm pretty sure that you could use NCT tickets on the tram for as long as they ran it

Yes you could because existing arrangements were allowed to continue but any new "multi-operator ticket" had to be open to all operators and if TB had allowed that for their Saver then it would just have become a cheaper version of the Kangaroo. Mango is a little different because it's pay-as-you-go but the lack of a cap for tram journeys may be another consequence of the same thing.

 

[CallySleeper]

Yes you could because existing arrangements were allowed to continue but any new "multi-operator ticket" had to be open to all operators and if TB had allowed that for their Saver then it would just have become a cheaper version of the Kangaroo. Mango is a little different because it's pay-as-you-go but the lack of a cap for tram journeys may be another consequence of the same thing.

Actually, the saver product (covering Hucknall) is more expensive than Kangaroo, but within the City boundary the saver is better value. Could it stand to reason that savers could be allowed on the tram albeit within the current fare zones? I.e., travel to/from Hucknall/Butlers Hill you pay more than from Moor Bridge south.

Tram journeys are capped in the same way, but it's a seperate cap to the zigzag cap.

To compare the two systems, what is different from the current (with Wellglade) or previous arrangement with NCT's season tickets - and the fact ridacards, day tickets etc can be used on the tram at no extra cost (except the airport of course). Day tickets can be used on the Edinburgh tram in the same way NCT tickets could, but now trentbarton zigzag tickets can't be used. Is there something different about the Edinburgh arrangement which means the competition rules are not applicable?

 

[edwin_m]

I think in Edinburgh the operator is the same company, not a separate company with some commonality of ownership.

 

[Deerfold]

I think in Edinburgh the operator is the same company, not a separate company with some commonality of ownership.

No. Transport for Edinburgh owns 100% of Edinburgh Trams Limited who operate the trams but only 91% of Lothian Buses Limited who operate most of the buses in the area.

 

[90019]

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...ning-storm-cripples-trams-for-hours-1-3412016

Lightning storm cripples trams for hours


A LIGHTNING storm crippled the city’s trams, leaving carriages powerless on the track for two hours just a fortnight before the route is officially opened to the public.

A section of the long-awaited network – due to accept passengers for the first time on May 31 – was struck by lightning on Tuesday afternoon.

Trams – which are being tested daily ahead of the launch date – did not run between the Gyle depot and the city centre for nearly two hours, and eight were stranded powerless mid-route.

It was a spectacular thunderstorm, but my bus carried on working as normal throughout.

 

[Zoidberg]

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...ning-storm-cripples-trams-for-hours-1-3412016

It was a spectacular thunderstorm, but my bus carried on working as normal throughout.

I did laugh when I read the article yesterday. But not so much at the thought of, had this been a live service, passengers with flights to catch stranded in off road sections of the line.

 

[CallySleeper]

http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...ning-storm-cripples-trams-for-hours-1-3412016

It was a spectacular thunderstorm, but my bus carried on working as normal throughout.

Predictable, frankly.

Also, did anyone explain yet why they're almost as long as the Cally Sleeper?

 

[dtaylor84]

Um. They're probably less than 1/10th the length...

 

[MCR247]

I dont think it was a serious comment they are very long though so I can see why it was said!

 

[NotATrainspott]

I presume the trams are as long as the predicted loadings said they needed to be. When the line through Leith is built it will mean the tram serves one of the areas of Scotland with the highest population density, a considerable number of whom would be interested in using the tram to get to the city centre or to work at Edinburgh Park etc. The trams have internal partition doors to divide the passenger space into two so off-peak you likely won't have the full length of the tram to sit in.

 

[starrymarkb]

7 Segments (40m) seems to be a common size for 100% low floor trams. A few places have bought 5 segment (30m) and expanded to 7 later.