Edinburgh Tram developments

[Techniquest]

Personally I hope it's successful for Edinburgh Airport to city centre journeys, although I suspect once I've been up there and done the line/stations I'll rarely use it.

 

[90019]

I should probably make it clear that I am not opposed to trams.
I generally quite like them, I just feel that having trams in Edinburgh is a pointless waste of resources that would have been better spent elsewhere, and a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

 

[Techniquest]

Aye trams where they're useful work well fair play. Dublin's tram system proves that, it's well used all day long every day. Hopefully they'll get their proposed new lines open one day, more so the DART extension to the airport...

I guess there's only one way to see if Edinburgh's lot will do well or not, only a few weeks to find out!

 

[edwin_m]

Aye trams where they're useful work well fair play. Dublin's tram system proves that, it's well used all day long every day. Hopefully they'll get their proposed new lines open one day, more so the DART extension to the airport...

I guess there's only one way to see if Edinburgh's lot will do well or not, only a few weeks to find out!

Agreed. A decent tram network could go some way to solving Edinburgh's congestion problems. However I think it has picked up enough emotional baggage with the locals that it will have to run very well and carry a lot of people for a long time before anyone is corageous enough to suggest an extension. With the one route surviving the cost increases I'm doubtful this will happen.

Compare Edinburgh spending £700m-odd to get one line, with Manchester spending about twice that (on Metrolink phase 3) to get five. I realise there are all sorts of ifs and buts that could be made around that comparison but there's a strong argument that Edinburgh hasn't got value for money.

 

[dcsprior]

Ive only visited Edinburgh about a decade ago (not lived there), but I got the strong impression that the bus system was excellent. Especially the bus service from the airport. Was there any actual reason to upgrade to trams for that route?

Not really.
The Airlink serves the Corstorphine corridor, which has lots of hotels. The tram takes the Stenhouse/Broomhouse corridor, and serves very few hotels, other than those in the city centre, which the 100 also serves.

I'd have thought that one of the biggest benefits for the airport route was better rail connections - if you're travelling from Glasgow/Stirling you'll be able to connect at Edinburgh Park, and from Fife/Dundee there'll be Edinburgh Gateway... so I see it as a missed opportunity that the Edinburgh Gateway Station isn't due to open until 18 months after tram services start.

 

[NotATrainspott]

What realistically were the alternatives to a tram network? If buses were to be kept as the main form of transport then you would eventually need to build a trolleybus network so that they don't all belch diesel fumes into the city centre. The vast majority of the problems that I have seen in the tram scheme have been in the street-running sections and I don't think there is realistically any way of preventing traffic problems without the massive investment necessary for a grade-separated (i.e. underground) system.

 

[90019]

What realistically were the alternatives to a tram network? If buses were to be kept as the main form of transport then you would eventually need to build a trolleybus network so that they don't all belch diesel fumes into the city centre.

I'd have been in favour of trolleybuses, especially those which can run on batteries through the city centre, so we don't have to have ugly wires hanging everywhere.
I must say, I really don't like the wires through the city centre. They look awful and the poles they're attached to are horrible. I wouldn't have minded so much if they used systems such as those in Bordeaux and Tours, where the trams run on 3rd rail through the centre which is only energised on the sections the tram is currently on, but use overheads elsewhere.

We already have some hybrid buses in the fleet, including Volvo single decks with stop start that will run on batteries at low speed when they have enough charge (with another 20 currently being delivered - it's not the best system in the world, but it's fairly decent when it works and you get a driver who actually uses it properly), and there have been electric buses in for evaluation a couple of times over the past couple of years.

The vast majority of the problems that I have seen in the tram scheme have been in the street-running sections and I don't think there is realistically any way of preventing traffic problems without the massive investment necessary for a grade-separated (i.e. underground) system.

It would help if the trams weren't stupidly long.
It would have been a better solution to run shorter trams that can be doubled up in the peaks if necessary, in my opinion.

Some of the problems around the East End are caused by the trams not actually fitting between the sets of lights, so that when the traffic builds up, the tram ends up blocking junctions.
That's another thing - none of the tram drivers appear to have been taught forward planning, and just carry on through junctions up to the back of whatever traffic is ahead of them, regardless of whether they're going to block the junctions or not.

 

[Deerfold]

Have a look on the side of the buses, where the company text is. You'll notice that it now says LTD rather than PLC.

A PLC is a subtype of a Limited Company, indicating its shares are freely tradable. Lothian buses has never been a PLC.

Lothian is 91% owed by Edinburgh city council with the other 9% being owned by other local councils.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Some of the problems around the East End are caused by the trams not actually fitting between the sets of lights, so that when the traffic builds up, the tram ends up blocking junctions.
That's another thing - none of the tram drivers appear to have been taught forward planning, and just carry on through junctions up to the back of whatever traffic is ahead of them, regardless of whether they're going to block the junctions or not.

Have the police ever expressed any views on that matter concerning the effect on road traffic that you describe above ?

 

[90019]

A PLC is a subtype of a Limited Company, indicating its shares are freely tradable. Lothian buses has never been a PLC.1

I need to have a look into that, because I'm sure the buses all had PLC on the side up until fairly recently.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Have the police ever expressed any views on that matter concerning the effect on road traffic that you describe above ?

Nope.

 

[CallySleeper]

That's another thing - none of the tram drivers appear to have been taught forward planning, and just carry on through junctions up to the back of whatever traffic is ahead of them, regardless of whether they're going to block the junctions or not.

This really doesn't surprise me.

 

[90019]

I need to have a look into that, because I'm sure the buses all had PLC on the side up until fairly recently.

I don't know when it actually changed, but I can find photos from a couple of years back which definitely show 'LOTHIAN BUSES plc' on the side of the bus.

I've given up trying to find anything more recent, as it seems almost nobody takes photos with the text visible.

 

[Deerfold]

I don't know when it actually changed, but I can find photos from a couple of years back which definitely show 'LOTHIAN BUSES plc' on the side of the bus.

I've given up trying to find anything more recent, as it seems almost nobody takes photos with the text visible.

Oh, I'm surprised, but it is possible. However the change in lettering does not have to be in line with any change in the type of company. It's certainly still council-owned.

 

[chris89]

I'd have been in favour of trolleybuses, especially those which can run on batteries through the city centre, so we don't have to have ugly wires hanging everywhere.
I must say, I really don't like the wires through the city centre. They look awful and the poles they're attached to are horrible. I wouldn't have minded so much if they used systems such as those in Bordeaux and Tours, where the trams run on 3rd rail through the centre which is only energised on the sections the tram is currently on, but use overheads elsewhere.

We already have some hybrid buses in the fleet, including Volvo single decks with stop start that will run on batteries at low speed when they have enough charge (with another 20 currently being delivered - it's not the best system in the world, but it's fairly decent when it works and you get a driver who actually uses it properly), and there have been electric buses in for evaluation a couple of times over the past couple of years.



It would help if the trams weren't stupidly long.
It would have been a better solution to run shorter trams that can be doubled up in the peaks if necessary, in my opinion.

Some of the problems around the East End are caused by the trams not actually fitting between the sets of lights, so that when the traffic builds up, the tram ends up blocking junctions.
That's another thing - none of the tram drivers appear to have been taught forward planning, and just carry on through junctions up to the back of whatever traffic is ahead of them, regardless of whether they're going to block the junctions or not.

Would agree that Trolley Buses, would have been the better option for Edinburgh with Battery back up for along sections of Princes Street.

Also when i saw the trams running about two weeks ago in Edinburgh i was surprised at the length of them most of all. Would have thought ones similar in length to Manchester or West Midlands Metro's would have been more suitable.

Also did notice that a lot in the East End area of Edinburgh as well, didn't see any drivers doing that though. But im sure girlfriend has when she has gone from/ to work etc.

Chris

 

[90019]

Oh, I'm surprised, but it is possible. However the change in lettering does not have to be in line with any change in the type of company. It's certainly still council-owned.

True, but it seems odd to suddenly change it without reason.

 

[kylemore]

What realistically were the alternatives to a tram network? If buses were to be kept as the main form of transport then you would eventually need to build a trolleybus network so that they don't all belch diesel fumes into the city centre. The vast majority of the problems that I have seen in the tram scheme have been in the street-running sections and I don't think there is realistically any way of preventing traffic problems without the massive investment necessary for a grade-separated (i.e. underground) system.

The Tyne and Wear Metro should have been the model using the large amount of disused railway alignment available, particularly in the North but also incorporating the south suburban and lines out to Midlothian. A cut and cover tunnel East/West along Princes St would have been expensive and disruptive - but carried out by competent authorities any more so than what we got?
The original Tram scheme from the 90s was more sensible than the one that has been partly realised now and made use of former railway alignment through areas of proven demand.

 

[ninja-lewis]

A PLC is a subtype of a Limited Company, indicating its shares are freely tradable. Lothian buses has never been a PLC.

Lothian is 91% owed by Edinburgh city council with the other 9% being owned by other local councils.

Actually it was a PLC since deregulation in 1986 - all the shares just happened to be owned by the 4 Lothian councils.

It went:
Edinburgh Corporation Transport department
Lothian Regional Transport (when the regional council was created in the 1970s)
Lothian Regional Transport PLC (upon deregulation)
Lothian Buses PLC (name change around 2000)

They re-registered as a private limited company last December as CEC's 91% in Lothian Buses was transferred to Transport for Edinburgh Limited (which also owns 100% of the tram company). Transport for Edinburgh Limited is in turn 100% owned by Edinburgh Council. The other 9% of Lothian Buses is split between the other 3 Lothian councils.

 

[Deerfold]

Actually it was a PLC since deregulation in 1986 - all the shares just happened to be owned by the 4 Lothian councils.

It went:
Edinburgh Corporation Transport department
Lothian Regional Transport (when the regional council was created in the 1970s)
Lothian Regional Transport PLC (upon deregulation)
Lothian Buses PLC (name change around 2000)

They re-registered as a private limited company last December as CEC's 91% in Lothian Buses was transferred to Transport for Edinburgh Limited (which also owns 100% of the tram company). Transport for Edinburgh Limited is in turn 100% owned by Edinburgh Council. The other 9% of Lothian Buses is split between the other 3 Lothian councils.

Indeed. I'm just curious as to why they ever went for being a Plc as opposed to a basic limited company as it introduces a number of extra regulations which are usually a trade-off for having publically tradeable shares.

I speak as someone who is a director of a limited company (but not a plc) but with no special legal knowledge.

 

[CallySleeper]

While the trams are introduced on 31st May, the 1st of June will see the quarterly comprehensive service change for the majority of timetables, with many seeing an increase in frequency.

One of note is that Airlink will run 24/7. As it hasn't been announced otherwise, N22 will continue to operate.

The 20 will also be extended to Ratho.

An interesting one personally is that the N30, having previously been withdrawn to Friday and Saturday nights only in October 2008, will now run all week. An interesting u-turn by LB there, and just in time for the summer holidays!

Ian Craig talks a lot about bus and tram integration, which is fair enough, but I'm not quite sure what the intention is for a change of this size. Will it do anything to improve tram ridership? Obviously, it will be a case of wait and see, but on paper at least, I'm not convinced.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Also, service 100 will run every 8 minutes from 7am to 9pm. It's been reported (unofficially) the tram will run every 7-8 minutes at peak, 10 mins off-peak.

 

[Pumbaa]

Some of the problems around the East End are caused by the trams not actually fitting between the sets of lights, so that when the traffic builds up, the tram ends up blocking junctions.
That's another thing - none of the tram drivers appear to have been taught forward planning, and just carry on through junctions up to the back of whatever traffic is ahead of them, regardless of whether they're going to block the junctions or not.

As it should be - admittedly not sure of the exact phrasing, when running in such situations the tram should proceed when instructed as far as possible into section rather than wait as 'good manners'. This avoids both inadvertently proceeding when permission is not given and entering a section without authority, and any potential conflict between road users and tram when the tram may wish to restart.

 

[Zoidberg]

As it should be - admittedly not sure of the exact phrasing, when running in such situations the tram should proceed when instructed as far as possible into section rather than wait as 'good manners'. This avoids both inadvertently proceeding when permission is not given and entering a section without authority, and any potential conflict between road users and tram when the tram may wish to restart.

Eh? So it's ok for trams to block junctions and impede the free flow of traffic. Plain daft, that is.

 

[Pumbaa]

What would you rather? Impede the flow of traffic or run the risk of the tram colliding with traffic when the tram restarts at the same time as the traffic? Sure, neither is great, and the solution should be to try where possible to phase signals to avoid this, but it's the safer approach.

 

[Zoidberg]

What would you rather? Impede the flow of traffic or run the risk of the tram colliding with traffic when the tram restarts at the same time as the traffic? Sure, neither is great, and the solution should be to try where possible to phase signals to avoid this, but it's the safer approach.

Do tram drivers not have eyes?

 

[90019]

While the trams are introduced on 31st May, the 1st of June will see the quarterly comprehensive service change for the majority of timetables, with many seeing an increase in frequency.

One of note is that Airlink will run 24/7. As it hasn't been announced otherwise, N22 will continue to operate.

The 20 will also be extended to Ratho.

An interesting one personally is that the N30, having previously been withdrawn to Friday and Saturday nights only in October 2008, will now run all week. An interesting u-turn by LB there, and just in time for the summer holidays!

Ian Craig talks a lot about bus and tram integration, which is fair enough, but I'm not quite sure what the intention is for a change of this size. Will it do anything to improve tram ridership? Obviously, it will be a case of wait and see, but on paper at least, I'm not convinced.

I see the 28 is coming back this summer, but as the 9 instead.

I'm not sure I'm looking forward to the 6, which I have for the first time on the saturday following the changes, but I'm curious to see what buses will be used.
I suppose it'll be nice for the 36 to get a better run up the top end, though.

 

[Zoidberg]

Well, the fares have been announced.

From the Edinburgh Trams website at http://www.edinburghtrams.com/tickets/cash-fares

Single Tickets

Adult:

£1.50 for City Zone travel (all stops excluding Edinburgh Airport)

£5.00 for Airport Zone travel (all stops)

Child aged 5-15:

£0.70 for City Zone travel (all stops excluding Edinburgh Airport)

£2.50 for Airport Zone travel (all stops)

...

And being discussed in the Edinburgh Evening News at http://www.edinburghnews.scotsman.c...res-already-increased-before-launch-1-3408906

An extract:

TRAM fares to Edinburgh Airport are being increased even before the first fee-paying passenger has set foot on board.

New price lists reveal a return journey to the airport has risen to £8 – a 50p increase on fares announced last September and £1 more expensive than the Airlink bus service.

Single journeys to the airport will cost £5.

The price rises contrast sharply with the £1.50 flat fare across the rest of the tram network raising questions about whether a stealth “tourist tax” is being heaped on visitors to Edinburgh.

I'm pleased to see confirmation of the alignment with the bus fares (apart from the airport service 100).

 

[Deerfold]

Do tram drivers not have eyes?

Yes, but no steering, so they can't veer out of the way of another vehicle.

 

[CallySleeper]

So, in a sentence: the tram will be slower, less frequent, and more expensive than the bus to the airport.

 

[90019]

So, in a sentence: the tram will be slower, less frequent, and more expensive than the bus to the airport.

And if the Ingliston P&R is in the 'Airport Zone', then they're basically forcing people to pay an extra £1 each way to and from town if they want to continue using it.

Curious that it coincides perfectly with the 12 being cut back so there's now going to be no bus service from Ingliston P&R to Princes Street. :roll:
There's also going to be no service from there to the zoo either, so I'm predicting a lot of unhappy people this summer.

 

[CallySleeper]

Also, a return on the tram to the airport (an open return I would assume?) is £8, whereas a day ticket (all trams to the airport and buses) is £9. I appreciate the area served is a lot bigger, but that's still pretty steep. AFAIK it's also unconventional for a day return price to be more expensive than open return (albeit, larger area).

Timetable news:

First trams at 05.00 from Gyle Centre/06.18 from Edinburgh Airport/05.30 from York Place
Then every 10 minutes until 07.00
Then every 7-9 minutes until 17.30
Then every 10 minutes until last trams at 22.45 from Edinburgh Airport/23.08 from York Place

Unfortunately, there's no actual timetable to browse over that I can find. Things I don't understand about this:
- I assume from this that the first tram arriving at the Airport will be ~06.10. I'd suggest that's too late for many 'peak-time' flyers.
- 'Every 7-9 minutes' is a really strange frequency! Will there be a reduced off-peak service as I hinted at in my previous post?
- 17.30 is also a really strange time to reduce the frequency. You'd expect it to be an hour later, surely.
- There will be later part route trams after 23.08, but even so that's still quite early. But maybe the passenger numbers will be such that this time is warranted.

 

[Deerfold]

And if the Ingliston P&R is in the 'Airport Zone', then they're basically forcing people to pay an extra £1 each way to and from town if they want to continue using it.

It's quite clearly not:

City Zone travel (all stops excluding Edinburgh Airport)

Curious that it coincides perfectly with the 12 being cut back so there's now going to be no bus service from Ingliston P&R to Princes Street. :roll:
There's also going to be no service from there to the zoo either, so I'm predicting a lot of unhappy people this summer.

Though of course a day (or longer) pass will be valid on the tram at no additional cost.

Also, a return on the tram to the airport (an open return I would assume?) is £8, whereas a day ticket (all trams to the airport and buses) is £9. I appreciate the area served is a lot bigger, but that's still pretty steep. AFAIK it's also unconventional for a day return price to be more expensive than open return (albeit, larger area).

Presumably if you want a day return you use the £8 ticket. If you want to use buses or make more journeys on the tram that day you use the £9 one (or catch the 35 out of the airport and pay a lot less...)