Edinburgh Tram developments

[computerSaysNo]

Oh no those platform announcements were pretty awful. I don’t think they were recorded, but rather just computer generated ones using recordings of individual words, then spliced together. The Trams really should have their own proper announcements, even if it is the same person who does the onboard announcements too.

I haven't heard any new announcements but the old/existing ones are awful. I agree they sound like a really basic text-to-speech has been used like Google Translate. The intonation and word emphasis is all wrong and I've found that makes it more difficult to make out what is being announced. Especially when they try and do "upbeat" announcements during events and you get the right words but in monotone

 

[chiltern trev]

Taylor Swift concert at Murrayfield .

I am interested to know how many extra trams, until what time, etc were provided after the concert, i.e. after about 22.30.

Seems like a concert of 70000 attendees exiting at 23.00 en masse represents at challenge.

 

[oldman]

This is what they announced

Additional services are being laid on before and after the global superstar takes to the stage, with trams running until at least 1.00 am for each concert. Check our 'X' account here for service updates.

The last tram service departing towards the airport from Scottish Gas Murrayfield is at 02.22

The last tram service departing towards Newhaven from Scottish Gas Murrayfield is at 01.10

That is two hours later than normal last services.

 

[Bus9120UK]

Taylor Swift concert at Murrayfield .

I am interested to know how many extra trams, until what time, etc were provided after the concert, i.e. after about 22.30.

Seems like a concert of 70000 attendees exiting at 23.00 en masse represents at challenge.

Dozens of buses operated by Lothian were provided operating extras on regular routes and shuttle buses to Ingliston P&R. The trams would've never been able to cover all demand!

 

[roadierway77]

Taylor Swift concert at Murrayfield .

I am interested to know how many extra trams, until what time, etc were provided after the concert, i.e. after about 22.30.

Seems like a concert of 70000 attendees exiting at 23.00 en masse represents at challenge.

They must have had most of the fleet out, and service ran until 1am. Was definitely needed, each tram leaving Murrayfield was rammed.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I had The misfortune to be in in Edinburgh City Centre at midnight on Saturday morning and can confirm that there were certainly plenty of trams and more than plenty of passengers using them
Regardless of all of that though. And I dare say the trams probably did a good job. Edinburgh is just not built to handle that number of people in the course of a weekend
For me, the only saving Grace of the the root is when it comes to filling and emptying that stadium in a reasonably timely manner

 

[snookertam]

Yes, but it's not exactly a conspiracy.

Trams are more efficient at moving more people, faster. As has been pointed out, they require people to walk further at each end, however the average overall journey time for every passenger on the route decreases. This is because trams stop less, get caught up in traffic less, and their stops at peak times are quicker, as they soak up passengers through several doors at once.

So the bus route being redrawn to channel people onto trams is basically a function of efficiency, especially down busy corridors like Leith Walk. Bear in mind the council charge the same for the busses and trams, and actually lose money in operating fees versus buses.

If this is the case, then it is the opposite of what should be happening. Public transport should be designed with user needs in mind, it shouldn’t be about user options being dovetailed into what the public transport provider prefers.

As others have stated, if public transport becomes a less convenient option door to door, people just go elsewhere. And once they’ve gone, they are twice as difficult to win back. Just see how difficult ScotRail have found it to get passengers back onto the trains.

 

[waverley47]

If this is the case, then it is the opposite of what should be happening. Public transport should be designed with user needs in mind, it shouldn’t be about user options being dovetailed into what the public transport provider prefers.

As others have stated, if public transport becomes a less convenient option door to door, people just go elsewhere. And once they’ve gone, they are twice as difficult to win back. Just see how difficult ScotRail have found it to get passengers back onto the trains.

I don't really understand your point.

What is less convenient, and what is it less convenient than? What would your ideal network look like? What changes have been made that mean that people are abandoning Lothian Buses and Trams for private cars?

Public transport is designed to offer the most possible benefit for the most possible people, within the limits of what already exists or what can reasonably be budgeted for and built. If Mrs Miggins in Morningside has a ten minutes longer bus journey to visit Leith, but a thousand people in Leith now have a more reliable, and higher capacity link with the city centre and the airport, isn't that what public transport is for? Or am I missing something incredibly obvious?

 

[edwin_m]

A network based on connections is also simpler and easier to understand, and each route is likely to have a better frequency than if there are a large number of routes attempting to connect everywhere to everywhere else. And because such a network could never achieve that fully, the low frequency would make it very unlikely that those with no direct route could do the journey with a reasonable connection.

 

[Cross City]

I notice when there is city centre disruption the trams often turn back at Haymarket Yards sidings rather than at Haymarket itself. Any particular reason for this?

 

[waverley47]

I notice when there is city centre disruption the trams often turn back at Haymarket Yards sidings rather than at Haymarket itself. Any particular reason for this?

There isn't a crossover at Haymarket station to turn them around from the platforms there. The next crossover that trams can be dispatched from is at West End.

 

[Cross City]

There isn't a crossover at Haymarket station to turn them around from the platforms there. The next crossover that trams can be dispatched from is at West End.

Can they not just use the crossover at Haymarket Yards and still run to the actual Haymarket stop?

Obviously not, because they don't. Was just something I was curious about.

 

[waverley47]

Can they not just use the crossover at Haymarket Yards and still run to the actual Haymarket stop?

Obviously not, because they don't. Was just something I was curious about.

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure there's no provision for wrong line working in passenger service. It's certainly not a signalled move, and I doubt in the strongest possible terms that the safety case makes a provision for unsignalled moves

 

[Haywain]

Having had a brief visit to Edinburgh a few days ago, and covered the Newhaven extension from the city centre, I am curious to know if time keeping is much of a problem on that part of the route? My experience was arriving at St Andrew Square and finding the next tram due on 9 minutes with another 3 minutes later, and then later I arrived at The Shore, just missing one tram, to find the next one due in 23 minutes! At that point I checked the timetable at the stop and found that frequency is supposed to be every 7 minutes. So this would suggest that there may be a problem.

 

[MarkyT]

I might be wrong but I'm pretty sure there's no provision for wrong line working in passenger service. It's certainly not a signalled move, and I doubt in the strongest possible terms that the safety case makes a provision for unsignalled moves

One of the benefits of line of sight tramways is the general lack of interlocking on double track segments. Although suitably prioritised tram signals are provided at signalised road junctions encountered, signals to prevent rail-on-rail conflict are usually only required at rail junctions and over single lines. The method requires strict compliance with unidirectional running on those sections though. The only exception is reversing back through a trailing turnout to cross to the opposite direction track or a middle siding. A section of bi di for routine use would need to be signalled as a single line.

 

[waverley47]

One of the benefits of line of sight tramways is the general lack of interlocking on double track segments. Although suitably prioritised tram signals are provided at signalised road junctions encountered, signals to prevent rail-on-rail conflict are usually only required at rail junctions and over single lines. The method requires strict compliance with unidirectional running on those sections though. The only exception is reversing back through a trailing turnout to cross to the opposite direction track or a middle siding. A section of bi di for routine use would need to be signalled as a single line.

I meant unsignalled as in, there are no physical signals to allow these moves; i.e. there are no signal heads provided at junctions for wrong line working.

As opposed to unsignalled as in, the interlocking does not allow it.

 

[MarkyT]

I meant unsignalled as in, there are no physical signals to allow these moves; i.e. there are no signal heads provided at junctions for wrong line working.

As opposed to unsignalled as in, the interlocking does not allow it.

It amounts to the same thing. If a signal was provided for the reversal, then there would need to be interlocking with another normal direction signal to prevent a head-on meet, inconvenient to sort out even if both trams were going slow enough to stop safely within sighting. At Haymarket the section to yard is along a normal two-way public road so a reversal would be going against the general traffic. You'd need another crossover immediately to the west of Haymarket platforms to reverse there.

 

[enginedin]

to find the next one due in 23 minutes!

this is not uncommon (although I still don't expect it, and might have caused me a mild panic when I realised I was going to touch and go from missing bag drop at the airport! I had a sprint from the tram stop to the terminal building, but I know it was my fault for going so close to the line!) - although Edinburgh Trams often say that when there is any kind of interval of >15 mins between trams it's signalling issues

 

[Fazaar1889]

So what's happening with the line from Haymarket to Granton?

 

[enginedin]

So what's happening with the line from Haymarket to Granton?

As an Edinburgh resident, they should just get on and build Granton to Bioquarter asap im(v)ho

 

[A330Alex]

There will be a consultation on the route (particularly a Roseburn Path vs on-street option) in Autumn. No particular news other than that development continues in the background.

It’s emerging in a very challenging capital funding environment unfortunately so things will be slower than hoped for.

 

[enginedin]

particularly a Roseburn Path vs on-street option

You probably are aware, but for the benefit of non-locals, there is some very vocal opposition to the Roseburn Path option: https://www.savetheroseburnpath.com/

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

You probably are aware, but for the benefit of non-locals, there is some very vocal opposition to the Roseburn Path option: https://www.savetheroseburnpath.com/

Opposition there might be, but there’s no suitable alternative. It’s that or nothing in my opinion and it’s not impossible to keep the path either.

 

[Fazaar1889]

There will be a consultation on the route (particularly a Roseburn Path vs on-street option) in Autumn. No particular news other than that development continues in the background.

It’s emerging in a very challenging capital funding environment unfortunately so things will be slower than hoped for.

Is there a general-ish idea when construction would begin?

 

[computerSaysNo]

Is there a general-ish idea when construction would begin?

I haven't looked at it recently but I think the plan for Roseburn to Granton is still in the "rough plan" stage. If it gets funding for detailed planning (I'd think unlikely to happen until sometime 2025) then I'd expect that to last at least several years so that takes us to about 2026/2027. Construction might then be about 2027 to about 2030.
That's me guessing, very roughly, and reasonably optimistically based on what I know offhand.

 

[Blindtraveler]

And I should imagine in light of local authority and Scottish government austerity that even the smallest amount of development funding will not be forthcoming in this financial year or the next one, expect there to be pretty much no movement until after the next Scottish parliamentary election which whilst not have a direct impact on the Edinburgh trams may have a more positive outlook for Scottish local authority funding and this would then trickle down to projects such as this

 

[LickeyIncliner]

I haven't looked at it recently but I think the plan for Roseburn to Granton is still in the "rough plan" stage. If it gets funding for detailed planning (I'd think unlikely to happen until sometime 2025) then I'd expect that to last at least several years so that takes us to about 2026/2027. Construction might then be about 2027 to about 2030.
That's me guessing, very roughly, and reasonably optimistically based on what I know offhand.

I would expect that detailed planning and design would take considerably longer than that, especially in the light of the problems encountered in building the original (Airport-York Place) line through the city centre. I would be very interested to know whether the ongoing work on the North Bridge includes any provision for the possible tram line over it.

As far as I can see, the existing official material on the north-south line (https://democracy.edinburgh.gov.uk/...ation for Strategic Business Case Develop.pdf)
makes numerous references to 2030 in discussing the context (e.g. the City Council's ambitions for traffic reduction and environmental improvement by then) but doesn't say anything at all about when the new tramline might come into operation. However, the next step is supposed to be the submission of a Strategic Business Case late this year (https://www.edinburgh.gov.uk/public-transport/trams-granton-bioquarter-beyond) which ought to come up with a timeline.

 

[Davester50]

You probably are aware, but for the benefit of non-locals, there is some very vocal opposition to the Roseburn Path option: https://www.savetheroseburnpath.com/

It's only returning it to it's previous use, which use is absent from the fairly NIMBY website.

 

[Meerkat]

It would make sense to decide the route and safeguard it so future planning and development aligns.

 

[chiltern trev]

The Scotsman has an article 8th Nov 2024 "Concrete cracks found in 75 places along Edinburgh tram line extension to Newhaven". Link is
https://www.scotsman.com/news/trans...oncrete-cracks-4857736#disqus-comment-section

I'll try an include some of the article and avoid the adverts all over the place.

Concrete cracks along Edinburgh’s tram line extension to Newhaven will require repairs in 75 places - some of which have had to be fixed twice.
News of the damage comes a year after the three-mile line from the city centre was opened at a cost of £207 million.

The as-yet undisclosed cost of the repairs will be borne by Sacyr Farrans Neopul (SFN), the consortium of construction firms which built the route from York Place,

The work is being done overnight when trams are not running.

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Leith resident Allan Lloyds said he had spotted “widespread damage” to the tram line’s concrete track bed.

He said: “In some areas, the concrete crumbled along the rail before the extension opened.
“Some of this damage was ‘repaired’ by cutting and drilling bolts into the track bed, and pouring new concrete on top.
“However, these repairs are now also falling apart, leaving large holes and exposed bolts.”

The City of Edinburgh Council said repairs had been made at about one third of the 75 damaged locations but some of these had suffered further cracking.

It said the remedial work was normally carried about between 1am and 4am, “outwith tram operations”.
Transport and environment convener Stephen Jenkinson said: “We’re aware of a number of defects and incomplete works that remain outstanding from the construction of the York Place to Newhaven section of the line.
“These works and the associated costs are covered under the two-year defects liability period and we’re working with the contractor SFN to resolve these promptly.
“We’ve carried out around 25 repairs to date on these. We’ve been monitoring the repairs and the majority of them have stood up to traffic volumes, but a small number of locations are showing new signs of cracking.

“Depending upon the overall success of some trial repairs that we have undertaken, that solution may be used by the construction contractor to rectify the remaining concrete defects of that nature, in due course.”
Mr Jenkinson said such cracking was to be expected.

He said: “I’d emphasise that some cracking is a normal occurrence as part of the drying process, alongside vibration from tram and vehicle movements.
“The tram infrastructure is regularly inspected as part of normal business by Edinburgh Trams and the tram infrastructure maintenance contractor.”
However, Mr Lloyds said he thought the council could not yet be certain that the remedial work would not affect tram operations because the repairs were still at the trial stage.

He also accused the council of a “lack of transparency” over the issue after asking it for information about the damage since March.
In 2021, repairs were made to part of the original tram line, between Princes Street and Shandwick Place, “to ensure safe operation of the system” after the concrete became “degraded”.
The work happened seven years after the eight-mile line opened from Edinburgh Airport.
Less than a year before the opening, cracks were also found in the concrete under an elevated section of the line near Edinburgh Park tram stop.