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Edinburgh Tram developments

Elwyn

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Co. Antrim, Ireland
Only the 100 from Lothian is an express bus, the 200 and 400 stop at every stop along its route. So the tram from Leith in theory would be a far fewer stopping service.
I used to take the 200 from the airport to Ocean Terminal. I now take the tram. Both take almost exactly the same time - 50 minutes. However the tram is a lot more comfortable and usually warmer too. The 200 bounces through every pothole and is wearing.
 
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FlybeDash8Q400

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I used to take the 200 from the airport to Ocean Terminal. I now take the tram. Both take almost exactly the same time - 50 minutes. However the tram is a lot more comfortable and usually warmer too. The 200 bounces through every pothole and is wearing.
I’d say a half full bus over a full tram is probably more comfortable, but I agree the roads on the 200’s route in particular are awful.
 

92002

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Clydebank
Only the 100 from Lothian is an express bus, the 200 and 400 stop at every stop along its route. So the tram from Leith in theory would be a far fewer stopping service.
You could also add 200, 300 and 400 which serve other destinations from the airport and charge airport fares with McGill's now moving in for the city centre route too. If you were heading for Leith it's a long way on the tram,
 

gavin1985

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1 Jul 2019
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Edinburgh
The tram is much more frequent than the 200 which is half-hourly
Same with the 400, at least however they have a night service though granted it's a single bus heading to the airport.

You could also add 200, 300 and 400 which serve other destinations from the airport and charge airport fares with McGill's now moving in for the city centre route too. If you were heading for Leith it's a long way on the tram,
Thought the 300 has been withdrawn?

In my opinion the 200 and 400 need a frequency increase and number of stops reduced.
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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In my opinion the 200 and 400 need a frequency increase and number of stops reduced.
I’m not sure the demand is there to be honest. I would much rather that another bus was added to each route to help with reliability. I do think 498-510 are looking tired now. At the very least a light refurbishment and repaint would help if they intend to keep them on the routes for now. If not, ideally they’re replaced.
 

Butts

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Stirlingshire
Only the 100 from Lothian is an express bus, the 200 and 400 stop at every stop along its route. So the tram from Leith in theory would be a far fewer stopping service.

Bright Bus stops even less frequently than the 100 and is cheaper ?
 

gavin1985

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1 Jul 2019
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Edinburgh
Bright Bus stops even less frequently than the 100 and is cheaper ?
Possibly correct, though I have tunnel vision for Lothian busses/tram.

That said if I am heading to the airport I am close to the Bankhead tram stop so I tend to get the tram. Otherwise it's the 400 for me.
 

Acfb

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505
I think the 100 has always had a premium fare (from memory), although people will correct me if I'm wrong. It's the 35 which had a really weird history to do with airport fares, sometimes having a premium fare and sometimes not IIRC. The 400 is very convenient for me (unless I have a 6am flight) so don't begrudge the 'surcharge'.

I do think tourists should be able to buy/top up a bus pass at the airport though and I don't believe they can. I would generally say tourists should get the bus (100,200,400) as that's included in weekly capping.
 

Porty

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Edinburgh
I think the 100 has always had a premium fare (from memory), although people will correct me if I'm wrong. It's the 35 which had a really weird history to do with airport fares, sometimes having a premium fare and sometimes not IIRC. The 400 is very convenient for me (unless I have a 6am flight) so don't begrudge the 'surcharge'.

I do think tourists should be able to buy/top up a bus pass at the airport though and I don't believe they can. I would generally say tourists should get the bus (100,200,400) as that's included in weekly capping.
I used to get my Ridacard topped up at the airport sales kiosk on returning from a holiday pre COVID. Is it still there? Now that I'm over 60 I don't need to top up.
 

Butts

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Website is coy about any onboard wifi and the services are far apart early in the morning. And exactly what is this 'fast' journey time?

Well yesterday morning when Lothian pulled all their services including the 100 I was grateful Bright Bus turned up at Haymarket to take me to the Airport.

It runs fast from Edinburgh Zoo non stop to the Airport.
 
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It does have a tram stop less than 150m walk from the terminal entrance, and the tram connects with the two closest stations as well as both of Edinburgh's main hub stations within 40 minutes. So it's not badly connected.
I wouldn't say the tram connects with Waverley station. In fact Edinburgh Gateway isn't great for connection either - it takes ages to negotiate all the platforms, stairs, barriers etc.
With a number of express bus services by the same company as the tram. To the city and Leith Same fare as the tram...surprise.
The orange Bright Bus goes to the City Centre, run by a different company and is cheaper. You can also use the express Stagecoach 747 for Fife or Citylink for further afield, neither of which are in cahoots with the tram company either.
And exactly what is this 'fast' journey time?
About 23 to 30 minutes, depending on time of day. Much the same as the 100. But note the term 'fast' was probably used in the railway context, meaning not calling at certain stops. This can be different to its colloquial use meaning quick.
 

route101

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I think the 100 has always had a premium fare (from memory), although people will correct me if I'm wrong. It's the 35 which had a really weird history to do with airport fares, sometimes having a premium fare and sometimes not IIRC. The 400 is very convenient for me (unless I have a 6am flight) so don't begrudge the 'surcharge'.

I do think tourists should be able to buy/top up a bus pass at the airport though and I don't believe they can. I would generally say tourists should get the bus (100,200,400) as that's included in weekly capping.
The 35 which used to run to the airport had normal fares when I used to use it. This was around 15 years ago.
 

och aye

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21 Jan 2012
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858
The 35 which used to run to the airport had normal fares when I used to use it. This was around 15 years ago.
I had friends of mine who used that service who virtually had a door to door service from their front door to the airport. It was very sorely missed by them when the 35 stopped serving the airport.
 

route101

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I had friends of mine who used that service who virtually had a door to door service from their front door to the airport. It was very sorely missed by them when the 35 stopped serving the airport.
Yes, the 35 still exists but does not go out to the airport. The 300 route was the last incarnation of the 35.
 

waverley47

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17 Apr 2015
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626
The sub isn't going to happen.

This has been done to death. Please see this thread (https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/edinburgh-south-sub-feasibility-study.236261/#post-5818425) for many of the reasons as to why the sub is basically unusable for trams or passenger workings.

Yes, tram-trains are proven technology. Yes, there is an old, underutilised alignment that looks on paper like it's perfect for trams. Yes, trams would be fantastic in theory.

But you'd be consigning the sub route to regular interval passenger trains, which would screw up the flexibility to hold and reverse trains around the back at short notice.

But you'd be signing up to purchase new tram-trains with dual voltage technology, which would inevitably be a microfleet, because NR wouldn't ever let you wire at 750v DC. On the contrary, this project would trigger the need to wire the lot at 25kv ac, unless you bought battery trains, and it's likely that at least some portion of that cost would have to be borne by Edinburgh Council.

But you have to buy and build the actual link between the trams lines at Haymarket and the sub, and I don't see any easy way of building that. Even at the most optimistic estimate, that's still the best portion of half a billion pounds just for that one link.

But you have nowhere to send them at the east end. From what I understand, the petition being rather light on details, they want to send the trams down the Leith Docks branch at Portobello Jn. Option one is you ask NR very nicely if there are paths across Portobello Jn: there won't be and NR will tell you to bugger off. Option two is somehow you get them off the sub at the Asda at the Jewel, down Harry Lauder Rd, across the big junction at Brunstane, and somehow onto the docks branch at a five meter height difference in a very cramped location. Best bet is another quarter of a billion.

But the sub points the wrong way. It's an east-west line across the main routes into the centre. It's unlikely you'll attract anyone onto the sub at a fifteen minute interval, when it would take longer than the buses that come more frequently. You can't run anything more than 4tph realistically because the signal sections are too long, unless you paid to resignal the lot, which costs a lot of money. Trams work best on radial routes, where decreasing journey times and increasing capacity have the most bang for their buck; on orbital route in cities the size of Edinburgh, buses are the way to go.

But, and actually this is probably the biggest problem, Edinburgh Council don't want it. There are at least three other routes in the works for the trams, each one costs the best part of a billion, not including the costs of buying the trams to run the routes. That puts the sub at the bottom of the pile, and at least a decade and a half away.

I live in Edinburgh, and converting the sub to tram trains would benefit me directly to an enormous degree. I would like it to happen, and I'd use it a fair amount. But it's not going to happen in my lifetime.
 
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DynamicSpirit

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But you'd be consigning the sub route to regular interval passenger trains, which would screw up the flexibility to hold and reverse trains around the back at short notice.

Out of interest, which trains are held and reversed there? Is it used by freight? I wasn't aware of any passenger trains using the line.
 

waverley47

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17 Apr 2015
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Out of interest, which trains are held and reversed there? Is it used by freight? I wasn't aware of any passenger trains using the line.

It's used by passenger trains very occasionally. It's used by out of service passenger stock at least once a day, to get something out of the way for half an hour, or turn something around.

By freight and loco movements, especially NR measurement trains, it's used to hold things off the main lines, or reverse locos at Craiglockhart occasionally.

It's a useful hiding hole for anything you can't or don't want to path through Waverley.

See here for the full list of paths through the sub today. The paths are evenly spread throughout the day, and most of them have a lot of time spent waiting around between Millerhill and Craiglockhart to fit between other services.
 

leithside

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31 Jan 2025
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Edinburgh
But you have to buy and build the actual link between the trams lines at Haymarket and the sub, and I don't see any easy way of building that. Even at the most optimistic estimate, that's still the best portion of half a billion pounds just for that one link.

But you have nowhere to send them at the east end. From what I understand, the petition being rather light on details, they want to send the trams down the Leith Docks branch at Portobello Jn. Option one is you ask NR very nicely if there are paths across Portobello Jn: there won't be and NR will tell you to bugger off. Option two is somehow you get them off the sub at the Asda at the Jewel, down Harry Lauder Rd, across the big junction at Brunstane, and somehow onto the docks branch at a five meter height difference in a very cramped location. Best bet is another quarter of a billion.

But the sub points the wrong way. It's an east-west line across the main routes into the centre. It's unlikely you'll attract anyone onto the sub at a fifteen minute interval, when it would take longer than the buses that come more frequently. You can't run anything more than 4tph realistically because the signal sections are too long, unless you paid to resignal the lot, which costs a lot of money. Trams work best on radial routes, where decreasing journey times and increasing capacity have the most bang for their buck; on orbital route in cities the size of Edinburgh, buses are the way to go.

But, and actually this is probably the biggest problem, Edinburgh Council don't want it. There are at least three other routes in the works for the trams, each one costs the best part of a billion, not including the costs of buying the trams to run the routes. That puts the sub at the bottom of the pile, and at least a decade and a half away.

I live in Edinburgh, and converting the sub to tram trains would benefit me directly to an enormous degree. I would like it to happen, and I'd use it a fair amount. But it's not going to happen in my lifetime.

Might be a good idea to look at the proposal and not just the petition. They propose two levels at Brunstane and then running down Harry Lauder Road. I don't think they're proposing joining the tram line at Haymarket.

There's only one route 'in the works' for the trams and the council themselves estimate it would be £2bn, which seems a tad more than 'the best part of a billion'. But as you say, you wouldn't attract people onto the tram anyway when it's slower than the bus. All those empty trams at the airport (which is quicker by bus from the centre) stand in testimony to this fundamental insight.
 

VioletEclipse

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10 Nov 2018
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Dùn Èideann
I personally would be very in favour of some scotrail services running through the city (eg from Dunbar to Glenrothes or something) to go via the stations on the south sub rather than the city centre and free up space at Waverley, although I realise there are a lot of reasons why that may not be realistic. There is quite a lot of latent demand for south-sub services, however having scotrail trains going via Edinburgh but not Haymarket or Waverley is a recipe for a lot of confusion. I have never really thought that having the trams run along the south-sub would be better than building out tramlines around the main streets in south Edinburgh, espescially as closing the south sub to freight is likely a terrible idea.
 

enginedin

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15 Dec 2020
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UK
It's used by passenger trains very occasionally.
I've actually been on a southbound Highland (Aberdeen) Sleeper that used the south sub line (I don't know why - although we did need to sit at Edinburgh for 3 hours waiting for the Inverness portion, so I wondered if that was something to do with it (i.e. ordering of coaches?)
 

DunsBus

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Yes, tram-trains are proven technology. Yes, there is an old, underutilised alignment that looks on paper like it's perfect for trams. Yes, trams would be fantastic in theory.

But you'd be consigning the sub route to regular interval passenger trains, which would screw up the flexibility to hold and reverse trains around the back at short notice.

But you'd be signing up to purchase new tram-trains with dual voltage technology, which would inevitably be a microfleet, because NR wouldn't ever let you wire at 750v DC. On the contrary, this project would trigger the need to wire the lot at 25kv ac, unless you bought battery trains, and it's likely that at least some portion of that cost would have to be borne by Edinburgh Council.

But you have to buy and build the actual link between the trams lines at Haymarket and the sub, and I don't see any easy way of building that. Even at the most optimistic estimate, that's still the best portion of half a billion pounds just for that one link.

But you have nowhere to send them at the east end. From what I understand, the petition being rather light on details, they want to send the trams down the Leith Docks branch at Portobello Jn. Option one is you ask NR very nicely if there are paths across Portobello Jn: there won't be and NR will tell you to bugger off. Option two is somehow you get them off the sub at the Asda at the Jewel, down Harry Lauder Rd, across the big junction at Brunstane, and somehow onto the docks branch at a five meter height difference in a very cramped location. Best bet is another quarter of a billion.

But the sub points the wrong way. It's an east-west line across the main routes into the centre. It's unlikely you'll attract anyone onto the sub at a fifteen minute interval, when it would take longer than the buses that come more frequently. You can't run anything more than 4tph realistically because the signal sections are too long, unless you paid to resignal the lot, which costs a lot of money. Trams work best on radial routes, where decreasing journey times and increasing capacity have the most bang for their buck; on orbital route in cities the size of Edinburgh, buses are the way to go.

But, and actually this is probably the biggest problem, Edinburgh Council don't want it. There are at least three other routes in the works for the trams, each one costs the best part of a billion, not including the costs of buying the trams to run the routes. That puts the sub at the bottom of the pile, and at least a decade and a half away.

I live in Edinburgh, and converting the sub to tram trains would benefit me directly to an enormous degree. I would like it to happen, and I'd use it a fair amount. But it's not going to happen in my lifetime.
Another reason why Edinburgh Council don't want the sub to reopen is that they don't want anything which takes money away from Lothian Buses.
 

waverley47

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Another reason why Edinburgh Council don't want the sub to reopen is that they don't want anything which takes money away from Lothian Buses.

Not really, it's all owned by the same people, and all the farebox money goes into the same account, so if it's more lucrative to run trams than buses then they'd want to run trams.

Which is why they want to convert some of the buses along Newington Road to trams, to increase capacity and therefore revenue.

They don't want to ask to put trams around the sub because it wouldn't attract money from the buses, and is a a financial basket case.
 
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Not really, it's all owned by the same people, and all the farebox money goes into the same account, so if it's more lucrative to run trams than buses then they'd want to run trams.

Which is why they want to convert some of the buses along Newington Road to trams, to increase capacity and therefore revenue.

They don't want to ask to put trams around the sub because it wouldn't attract money from the buses, and is a a financial basket case.
I'm not totally familiar with the south sub but it always struck me as largely reflecting Lothian's 38 bus route (or Eastern Scottish C38/58 from yesteryear).
The 38 always seemed a lame duck service, needing council subsidy since deregulation.
 

waverley47

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Might be a good idea to look at the proposal and not just the petition. They propose two levels at Brunstane and then running down Harry Lauder Road. I don't think they're proposing joining the tram line at Haymarket.

There's only one route 'in the works' for the trams and the council themselves estimate it would be £2bn, which seems a tad more than 'the best part of a billion'. But as you say, you wouldn't attract people onto the tram anyway when it's slower than the bus. All those empty trams at the airport (which is quicker by bus from the centre) stand in testimony to this fundamental insight.

The two routes are Roseburn down to Granton, and down Newington Road to Cameron Toll and the Royal. For accounting purposes they are one route, for infrastructure purposes they are two completely separate routes. The southern route is much more costly simply because its down a very busy road, but that is where the confusion comes from.

With regards to the proposal...

Firstly, unless you propose to run the route as a disconnected entity, with captive rolling stock and a new depot, you're going to have to tie it into the existing route somewhere. That somewhere is going to have to be the western end of the city centre, otherwise you disconnect the sub from the depot whenever Princes Street is closed. Furthermore, you have to send trams from the sub into the city centre, which means somehow connecting them into the existing tram lines somewhere near Murrayfield, and sending them eastward, otherwise this line isn't ever going to break even. There isn't enough demand for an orbital tram route that doesn't go anywhere near the city centre, and if there isn't enough demand, then why would the council ever agree to fund it?

Indeed, they do propose to join the existing route westwards to Balgreen, crossing the E&G on a flyover. That's two junctions tying into the existing tram line and the sub. The southern end tying into the sub: you'd have to buy and demolish some of the Varamova Pharma factory, but ultimately not a deal breaker. The northern end, tying into the existing tram line: you'd have to buy some of the Murrayfield pitches, and then have a junction elevated above ground level to a significant degree, either above the Water of Leith or inside the back gardens on Baird Drive. Again, not a deal breaker, but this cost is going up and up and up.

They also propose running another new line from the sub (this is looking more and more like you're going to have to demolish the entire Varamova factory, which means more money) under the E&G (the bridge is already there so this is easy) somehow raise it up in an incredibly constrained site to join the existing line before it reaches Murrayfield Station. That's the main emergency vehicle access to Murrayfield Stadium that you're messing with, or you're buying part of Haymarket depot, which is too small already, and ScotRail would tell you where to get off.

At the eastern end, they propose a two level station for trams and trains, with a low part of the platform and high part of the platform. That makes sense. What doesn't make sense is the idea that you're going to use this project to remodel the entirety of the Niddrie Junctions, and Portobello Junction by extension. To get two platforms, presumably one in each direction, you'd need to rebuild the entire section between Portobello Junction and Newcraighall station, and any tram line heading north, and coming off after Brunstane station, which they propose, would mess around with signal overlaps to an extreme degree.

Then, after crossing on the Harry Lauder Rd bridge, you're building a mobility hub on the outskirts of Portobello that doesn't have direct trams to the city centre on an industrial estate bounded on one side by a main road and on the other by the ECML. its not an easy place to get to unless you're building a better access route than the very narrow Hope Ln footbridge, which will be necessary.

And finally, you're presumably going to have to redouble the Seafield branch, except the two bridges at Portobello Road and Fishwives Causeway, both of which were rebuilt at some point and only build wide enough for single track. Between Craigentinny and Salamander Pl, there's nothing worth serving unless you want to build a tram stop to serve a Halfords or a sewage farm?



All in all, this project can be summed up in two sentences.

If this project was in any way technically feasible, or economically lucrative, or socially beneficial, and the council knew about it, I'm sure that they would have jumped on the bandwagon; surely it would be in the council long term plan, or there would have been favourable words, or a feasibility study saying that it was a good idea. On the contrary, the opposite is true. There have been many proposals and petitions asking for this project, in every possible manifestation since the line closed, and never once has the council decided to go along with it.
 

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