Elizabeth line: Commuters say service 'not what was promised'

[Taunton]

Regarding train pauses post May 2023, It would have been rather optimistic that trains from GWML would arrive to Westbourne Park on time given how many delays it has.

Well that's not quite so because, as I have written before, if a substantially delayed train from Slough is driven "properly" (both station to station and dwell time at stations) it seems able to catch up a substantial number of minutes (nearly 10 in my case) by the time it gets to Westbourne Park. The schedules themselves seem pretty slack. Why on earth would one need Westbourne Park timewasting as well?

And, if I may quote Gerry Fiennes yet again "The solution is not to ease out the schedules of regular late runners. The solution is to make them run on time in the first place".

 

[Horizon22]

Would there be one of these services during peak. I thought the reliefs between reading and Paddington were exclusively el during the peak?

You might well be right, but again hard to be absoutely certain. It may be that the idea is just to keep an even calling pattern for service groups, and this is generally the way TfL likes to operator. A 2-3 minute wait is nothing like the 7 minutes of present for some services.

Well that's not quite so because, as I have written before, if a substantially delayed train from Slough is driven "properly" (both station to station and dwell time at stations) it seems able to catch up a substantial number of minutes (nearly 10 in my case) by the time it gets to Westbourne Park. The schedules themselves seem pretty slack. Why on earth would one need Westbourne Park timewasting as well?

And, if I may quote Gerry Fiennes yet again "The solution is not to ease out the schedules of regular late runners. The solution is to make them run on time in the first place".

Nothing will be making up ten minutes from Slough without running fast!

 

[matt_world2004]

You might well be right, but again hard to be absoutely certain. It may be that the idea is just to keep an even calling pattern for service groups, and this is generally the way TfL likes to operator. A 2-3 minute wait is nothing like the 7 minutes of present for some services.



Nothing will be making up ten minutes from Slough without running fast!

I've had trains arrive 5 minutes early into Southall after leaving Ealing Broadway on time there does seem to be some slack in the timetable , now and post may 2023

I reckon an el train could probably do Ealing Broadway to Paddington in 8 minutes instead of the timetabled 11 minutes . Particularly as there should be no need for a low speed limit on approach given its not approaching a terminating platform

I've had journeys between Southall and Ealing Broadway take 4 minutes on a fast Elizabeth line service

Indeed IIRC there were some sub 16 minute journeys overnight on new years eve between london Paddington and Hayes.

 

[Horizon22]

I've had trains arrive 5 minutes early into Southall after leaving Ealing Broadway on time there does seem to be some slack in the timetable , now and post may 2023

I reckon an el train could probably do Ealing Broadway to Paddington in 8 minutes instead of the timetabled 11 minutes . Particularly as there should be no need for a low speed limit on approach given its not approaching a terminating platform

I've had journeys between Southall and Ealing Broadway take 4 minutes on a fast Elizabeth line service

Indeed IIRC there were some sub 16 minute journeys overnight on new years eve between london Paddington and Hayes.

There's some westbound slack certainly. Trains used to do it in 8-10 minutes (I've done 7 before!) to the mainline station. I think there's an allowance for the signalling transition too though going Eastbound, even if that is normally fairly smooth these days.

 

[Acton1991]

In the may timetable, the Heathrow T5 trains will not be stopping at Hanwell, West Ealing or Acton Main Line.

Why is this the case? I thought we would get the 6tph in May so this is very disappointing. Even more confusing for customers now as not every Heathrow train will call at these stations from the core.

 

[matt_world2004]

Why is this the case? I thought we would get the 6tph in May so this is very disappointing. Even more confusing for customers now as not every Heathrow train will call at these stations from the core.

Covid released demand I guess probably found they could save a unit or two by having the quicker journey time by not stopping at acton mainline or Hanwell.

Acton Mainline was never getting 6tph although west Ealing was scheduled to get 10 and Hanwell 6 unless london reconnections got it seriously wrong.

 

[Horizon22]

Covid released demand I guess probably found they could save a unit or two by having the quicker journey time by not stopping at acton mainline or Hanwell.

Acton Mainline was never getting 6tph although west Ealing was scheduled to get 10 and Hanwell 6 unless london reconnections got it seriously wrong.

If I remember correctly there was a lot of speculation from various sources about the end service patterns of Crossrail / TfL Rail / Elizabeth line as so much was unknown, so I wouldn't be too surprised some sources were wrong.

 

[grandgarrande]

Unfortunately, it was ruled that Reading/Maidenhead trains would not be able to stop at West Ealing.

Given that freight has the priority over passengers trains (freight trains cannot accelerate efficiently as an EMU) the additional Heathrow trains would not be able to stop at Hanwell, West Ealing and Acton Main Line.

However, a last minute compromise meant that Southall would be skipped rather than West Ealing.

Freight also does run in the between 6am - 9am and 5pm - 7pm

 

[Acton1991]

Unfortunately, it was ruled that Reading/Maidenhead trains would not be able to stop at West Ealing.

Given that freight has the priority over passengers trains (freight trains cannot accelerate efficiently as an EMU) the additional Heathrow trains would not be able to stop at Hanwell, West Ealing and Acton Main Line.

However, a last minute compromise meant that Southall would be skipped rather than West Ealing.

Freight also does run in the between 6am - 9am and 5pm - 7pm

Thank you for the context. A big shame and a long term solution will need to be found as heavy property development will continue to drive passengers towards these stations, meaning 4tph isn’t suitable.

Most people aren't travelling with a suitcase at peak times.

Onboard my train this morning, in carriage 9 there are 17 suitcases - large ones, not carry on. So it is a significant number.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Thank you for the context. A big shame and a long term solution will need to be found as heavy property development will continue to drive passengers towards these stations, meaning 4tph isn’t suitable.


Onboard my train this morning, in carriage 9 there are 17 suitcases - large ones, not carry on. So it is a significant number.

The freight is more important so I doubt there will be one.

 

[mrmartin]

Unfortunately, it was ruled that Reading/Maidenhead trains would not be able to stop at West Ealing.

Given that freight has the priority over passengers trains (freight trains cannot accelerate efficiently as an EMU) the additional Heathrow trains would not be able to stop at Hanwell, West Ealing and Acton Main Line.

However, a last minute compromise meant that Southall would be skipped rather than West Ealing.

Freight also does run in the between 6am - 9am and 5pm - 7pm

Absolutely unbelievable that yet again extremely low value freight is disrupting service patterns on intensively used London passenger services, similar to the NLL.

The freight is more important so I doubt there will be one.

What freight even is on this route?

 

[martin2345uk]

Absolutely unbelievable that yet again extremely low value freight is disrupting service patterns on intensively used London passenger services, similar to the NLL.


What freight even is on this route?

Intermodal trains, lots of stuff from the mendips, there is a lot!

 

[zwk500]

Absolutely unbelievable that yet again extremely low value freight is disrupting service patterns on intensively used London passenger services, similar to the NLL

It's very high value as the alternative would be to further slow down London's construction industry or to send more lorries through London.

 

[Clip]

Absolutely unbelievable that yet again extremely low value freight is disrupting service patterns on intensively used London passenger services, similar to the NLL.


What freight even is on this route?

Forgive me here, but isn't the railway there for both freight and passengers and doesn't taking this freight by rail ensure that there are not loads of lorries carrying it clogging up the roads?
do they pay the same track charges

 

[Taunton]

It's very high value as the alternative would be to further slow down London's construction industry or to send more lorries through London.

Such hyperbole, along the lines of "if I don't run the trains exactly when I want the whole UK economy will collapse" really does not serve the argument well.

Turning to actualities, I looked at the service on the line this morning for the peak one hour. Of the three freight paths right through this time of maximum passenger demand, which obviously are allowed for in the passenger timetable ... not one of them ran. There was one additional short term freight added, which did run - but went through 40 minutes ahead of schedule, and thus not in this time either. So the passenger service is being restricted by ghost trains which do not run.

The issue is just in the peak period, the only point when a couple of additional trains are required. The old Southern Region used to say no freight in the London suburban area 0700-0900 or 1600-1800, when passenger services were enhanced. That would work fine here.

 

[zwk500]

Such hyperbole, along the lines of "if I don't run the trains exactly when I want the whole UK economy will collapse" really does not serve the argument well.

I didn't say that, in any way at all. Completely misreading posts doesn't serve your argument any better. It's perfectly possible to run the trains at different times if the customer can accept the product then.

The issue is just in the peak period, the only point when a couple of additional trains are required. The old Southern Region used to say no freight in the London suburban area 0700-0900 or 1600-1800. That would work fine here.

As long as there are suitable places for the freight to be held, or enough capacity to retime the freight further back, yes. A Mendip jumbo takes about 4 hours actual running from Merehead to Acton, so you don't have a massive window, but certainly not impossible.

 

[johntea]

One thing I did notice on my travels is there were actually always many seats still available but people seemed afraid of sitting in between two strangers so they just remained empty! The original BBC article even managed to capture a good photo of what I mean

 

[Horizon22]

Absolutely unbelievable that yet again extremely low value freight is disrupting service patterns on intensively used London passenger services, similar to the NLL.


What freight even is on this route?

There’s loads of freight - it’s the main East / West route across London for instance, there’s trips towards Felixstowe, Wembley, S. Wales, Mendips as well as stuff going through Greenford, and you of course have Acton Yard practically adjacent to Acton Main Line station.

It’s not necessarily “low value” although the regulation could be better when it ends up 60L and then gets slotted right in front of a passenger service, rather than behind.

One thing I did notice on my travels is there were actually always many seats still available but people seemed afraid of sitting in between two strangers so they just remained empty! The original BBC article even managed to capture a good photo of what I mean

A trend since Covid, but it’s starting to fade away. Also that BBC pic doesn’t look like a peak to me, maybe a shoulder peak.

Turning to actualities, I looked at the service on the line this morning for the peak one hour. Of the three freight paths right through this time of maximum passenger demand, which obviously are allowed for in the passenger timetable ... not one of them ran. There was one additional short term freight added, which did run - but went through 40 minutes ahead of schedule, and thus not in this time either. So the passenger service is being restricted by ghost trains which do not run.

They very much do run - not sure if ASLEF strike today has had anything to do with it. Passenger trains often get held for them or caught behind them. It’s a regular, daily occurrence.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

18 billion pounds, brand new trains and stations. Still complaining. Most people in my patch breathe a sigh of relief when they can be crushed onto the hourly 2 carriage sprinter into Manchester.

Very few people who use the Elizabeth Line frequently are complaining. Yesterday I travelled between Stratford and West Ealing with no problems at all. I didn't notice anyone else who seemed dissatisfied either.

 

[Taunton]

One thing I did notice on my travels is there were actually always many seats still available but people seemed afraid of sitting in between two strangers so they just remained empty!

This is indeed a feature of the new world of longitudinal seating and tiny seat widths, and equally applies on the Underground and the DLR. The latter took out their onetime transverse seating bays and rearranged the same seats all together longitudinally along the bodysides. This ignored the fact that passengers do not fit in current generation seats. It didn't matter on transverse seating because the passenger on the aisle side almost always (unless a child) overhung the gangway space, you just have to look at the remaining transverse seated trains to see this is so. Now that's not possible, notwithstanding the armrests, which are not at the widest, shoulder level of passengers, particularly when they are wearing winter coats etc, and overhang the seat in between from both sides.

The fact is (memo to rolling stock designers, who have somehow missed this) another adult in between two others Just Doesn't Fit Properly.

 

[zwk500]

The fact is (memo to rolling stock designers, who have somehow missed this) another adult in between two others Just Doesn't Fit Properly.

YES! Squeezing the seats down to get a better headline number on the brochure doesn't help passengers.

 

[Horizon22]

YES! Squeezing the seats down to get a better headline number on the brochure doesn't help passengers.

I've regularly seen all seets used in the peak, all by adults. The fact is an 345 capacity is already 70% standing.

 

[zwk500]

I've regularly seen all seets used in the peak, all by adults. The fact is an 345 capacity is already 70% standing.

Yes but people will be running shoulders, sitting askew or leaning forwards to fit in. I have to do all that currently on the tube (and 3+2 layout tbf). I don't mind a train being largely standing capacity if it's made clear that's what it is.

 

[thomalex]

Yes but people will be running shoulders, sitting askew or leaning forwards to fit in. I have to do all that currently on the tube (and 3+2 layout tbf). I don't mind a train being largely standing capacity if it's made clear that's what it is.

Almost sounds like this is a tube line after all!

 

[zwk500]

Almost sounds like this is a tube line after all!

Crossrail in conceptually similar to an RER line. It is intended to complement the Tube, so in the Core section you'd expect tube-level loadings.

 

[Dstock7080]

The transformational Elizabeth line clocks more than one hundred million passenger journeys

The transformational Elizabeth line clocks more than one hundred million passenger journeys

tfl.gov.uk

More customers than expected have taken advantage of capital's newest transport link since opening in May 2022.
The Elizabeth line, which stretches from Reading and Heathrow in the west to Shenfield and Abbey Wood in the east, has now seen more than one hundred million journeys since opening in May 2022. Transport for London (TfL) data also reveals that ridership on the line is currently above expected levels with around 600,000 journeys made each day, meaning the railway is one of the busiest in the UK and is on track to break even by the end of the 2023/24 financial year. The data clearly shows the popularity of the capital's newest transport option and the benefit of investing in transport in London.

 

[Taunton]

Crossrail in conceptually similar to an RER line. It is intended to complement the Tube, so in the Core section you'd expect tube-level loadings.

Picture of Paris RER train. Notice transverse seats.

Can Stock Photo

It really should be understood that the bulk of the Elizabeth Line mileage is outside the core.

 

[zwk500]

Picture of Paris RER train. Notice transverse seats.

It really should be understood that the bulk of the Elizabeth Line mileage is outside the core.

I'd very much like double-decker trains on Crossrail! Then the space might not have to be squeezed so much.

 

[ELfan]

It really should be understood that the bulk of the Elizabeth Line mileage is outside the core.

Is that relevant though? What proportion of the passenger journeys are less than 30mins?

Would the trains have enough capacity at peak with transverse seating both now and when OOC opens (and when Ealing borough is covered in new high rise towers)?

To me I think they've made the right compromise. Though more luggage space especially for Heathrow trains would help.

 

[DC1989]

The transformational Elizabeth line clocks more than one hundred million passenger journeys

The transformational Elizabeth line clocks more than one hundred million passenger journeys

tfl.gov.uk

So based on their own expectations prior to opening (and Covid!) that the Elizabeth line would have capacity for 200 million passenger journeys per year they are now running at above capacity at 600k per day (>215 million per year)

In March 2022 they didn't expect to hit 170 million until 2026

Predicted Crossrail Usage

Questions to the Mayor: Has the pandemic shifted TfL’s calculations on the extent to which Crossrail will cannibalise the passenger numbers of some Tube lines, as opposed to resulting in increased numbers of passenger journeys?

www.london.gov.uk

With significant housing development being planned around these stations, they need to start to look at increase the amount of trains or extending them sooner rather than later