Ember: Electric coach service

[route101]

I'm currently on board the 10.13 out of Edinburgh. Pretty impressed so far, and normally I wouldn't touch coach travel with a barge pole. The seats are very comfortable, and the motor noise is nowhere near as irritating as I find the rumble of engines on diesel coaches. Something is indeed a bit rattly, which isn't great, but I hope this succeeds. They've picked an awful time to launch - me and my son are the only passengers.

Yes, brave for them to launch. Plenty citylink and Megabus coaches on the route to.

My concern is getting word out that this service exists.

 

[Journeyman]

Yes, brave for them to launch. Plenty citylink and Megabus coaches on the route to.

My concern is getting word out that this service exists.

True, they don't seem to have done much. My son pointed out that there's no mention on the outside of the vehicle that it's electric and/or zero-emissions, so anyone seeing it won't know what makes it stand out. They're missing a trick there.

 

[route101]

True, they don't seem to have done much. My son pointed out that there's no mention on the outside of the vehicle that it's electric and/or zero-emissions, so anyone seeing it won't know what makes it stand out. They're missing a trick there.

I never noticed that. I did notice a few people giving the coach second looks , the citylink and stagecoach drivers were friendly with waving and flashing the lights.

Does anyone know what kind of coach was used when one of buses went tech?

 

[Journeyman]

I never noticed that. I did notice a few people giving the coach second looks , the citylink and stagecoach drivers were friendly with waving and flashing the lights.

Does anyone know what kind of coach was used when one of buses went tech?

I kept an eye out for whatever the second vehicle was today, but I didn't see anything. However, the one I was on today appears to be the one that was giving trouble, so hopefully things are sorted.

I didn't book in advance, because if a hired in diesel coach appeared, I wasn't interested in making the journey. Buying on board was £9.50, as opposed to £7.50.

 

[scosutsut]

For once we can agree on something, the roads, even in more upmarket parts, of Edinburgh are probably the worst I've seen anywhere in the UK.

Edinburgh roads are an absolute disgrace and always have been the 20 odd years I've been here. Most of them look like they've been on the receiving end of heavy mortar fire.

If I was a conspiracy theorist I'd suggest the council having failed to ban the car, and failed to price people out of the car, are now trying to shake people from them!

The disadvantage for Ember is having no engine noise to hide the worst of it!

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Does anyone know what kind of coach was used when one of buses went tech?

Fishers Tours B9R Levante on Sunday. Monday and Tuesday was a Scottish Blue Ford minibus

 

[route101]

Fishers Tours B9R Levante on Sunday. Monday and Tuesday was a Scottish Blue Ford minibus

Ah , that's why I didn't notice a service the other way on Monday.

 

[GusB]

Coach and Bus Week had an interesting feature earlier in the week.

Ember: Edinburgh’s electric express - CBW

On 1 October, new entrant to the inter-city market Ember launched its inaugural service between Dundee and Edinburgh. Jonathan Welch spoke to founders Pierce Glennie and Keith Bradbury about the new fully-electric service After months [...]

cbwmagazine.com

On 1 October, new entrant to the inter-city market Ember launched its inaugural service between Dundee and Edinburgh. Jonathan Welch spoke to founders Pierce Glennie and Keith Bradbury about the new fully-electric service

After months of delays caused by the coronavirus outbreak, new entrant to the market – and the coaching world – Ember launched its service linking the cities of Dundee and Edinburgh quietly at the beginning of October.

Quietly in that there was no big launch event because of coronavirus restrictions, but also because this is a service which employs solely electric propulsion. No diesel or CNG engine here, no range-extending generator or hydrogen fuel cell. Just pure battery power, courtesy of a pair of smart dark grey Yutong TCe12 coaches delivered by Castleford-based Pelican Engineering and to full PSVAR specification.

Neither Keith nor Pierce has a background in the coach or bus industry, and their technology background is reinforced at their offices in central Edinburgh, in an office block used primarily by tech companies. By their own admission the two casually-dressed young entrepreneurs don’t look like typical bus industry people. Nor are they. “We worked together at a tech company,” Keith explained. “We were part of a small company which grew quickly into a much larger company. Between us we had experience across the whole business, including management experience. We wanted to start a business together, and considered a number of themes. One strong theme was around net-zero emissions. Now is the time to do something about emissions, there’s already been a lot of progress in cars, and we looked at what we could do with different vehicle types, including planes and hovercraft. We tried to assess which offered the most viable technology.”

It's a paid-for article so I'm not going to quote the whole thing, but it's interesting that they seem to see themselves as a technology company rather than a coach (or bus) company.

One of the main points I gathered from the article is that the "launch" of this new service was supposed to be a low-key affair rather than one with great fanfare. Basically it's being used as a proof of concept with a view to expanding elsewhere once they can prove it works and they're very much in the process of ironing out various niggles.

I have to say that I was a bit skeptical when I first heard about Ember, but I do wish them well, especially in the current climate.

 

[philthetube]

As I understand the above post this means that they are not concerned if the service fails to make a profit as long as it demonstrates a successful concept.

If I am correct I would have thought that that was additional reason to have an spare coach.

 

[overthewater]

There is nothing wrong with breaking even on new concepts. However the need for a spare coach, is not an issues since the Traffic commissioner has approved this new venture with the fact Ember can hire in extra stock if needs be.

 

[route101]

Hopefully they pick up some customers due to them being a cheaper option, Citylink is a dear option for a lot of fares.

 

[Observer]

Service Updates

Find out about service cancellations or delays

www.ember.to

Due to a charge point failure, we'll be using backup vehicles (which will not have Ember branding) until further notice. This is likely to continue until the afternoon of Friday 23rd October. We're sorry for the inconvenience.

Keep an eye out for one of the following vehicles if waiting for your bus:

• A white VW Transporter minivan with registration GJ19 UCT
• A Timberbush branded Mercedes Sprinter minibus with registration SN19 KWF

Please give us a call on 0131 510 4007 if you have any questions.

Would the Transporter be an 8 seater? Surely they could have got two minibuses from Timberbush?

 

[Boo_]

Service Updates

Find out about service cancellations or delays

www.ember.to

Would the Transporter be an 8 seater? Surely they could have got two minibuses from Timberbush?

Can a Coach be replaced with a non DDA minibus?

 

[RT4038]

Can a Coach be replaced with a non DDA minibus?

Yes.

 

[DunsBus]

Not sure if there's any truth in this, but apparently the reason for the "charging issue" is because someone tried to recharge his electric car using the coach charger, despite the dedicated bay being clearly marked. The result being that he fried both his car and the charger.

A very expensive mistake, if true.

 

[Kiewii]

Not sure if there's any truth in this, but apparently the reason for the "charging issue" is because someone tried to recharge his electric car using the coach charger, despite the dedicated bay being clearly marked. The result being that he fried both his car and the charger.

A very expensive mistake, if true.

That was the reason I was given by the Ember employee on my replacement service last night

 

[carlberry]

Not sure if there's any truth in this, but apparently the reason for the "charging issue" is because someone tried to recharge his electric car using the coach charger, despite the dedicated bay being clearly marked. The result being that he fried both his car and the charger.

A very expensive mistake, if true.

If true (ignoring the stupidity involved) it does suggests that the design of charging infrastructure hasnt been thought out. Making the plugs different or having a simple protection circuit on both sides wouldnt appear to require the diversion of any rocket scientists from their chosen task!

 

[221129]

At least one of the electric buses are back out today. Just gone past me on Princes St.

 

[philthetube]

Not sure if there's any truth in this, but apparently the reason for the "charging issue" is because someone tried to recharge his electric car using the coach charger, despite the dedicated bay being clearly marked. The result being that he fried both his car and the charger.

A very expensive mistake, if true.

If this is true then it shows the benefit of testing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If this is true then it shows the benefit of testing.

It certainly shows the benefit of something the IT industry learnt years ago - make sure you don't use the same plug/socket design for two things that can, if mixed up, cause damage.

 

[Volvodart]

They must be branching out into service buses:-

https://www.transport.gov.scot/news/over-40-million-for-zero-emission-buses/

Over £40 million for zero emission buses​

The Scottish Government has awarded £40.5 million through a second round of the Scottish Ultra-Low Emission Bus Scheme (SULEBS).
This is the largest investment yet through the SULEBS programme, and will support operators in replacing 215 old diesel buses with new battery-electric models. This is a substantial increase on the 57 buses supported through the first round and to help meet demand, the intended budget for this second round has been increased by £15 million.
With 172 of the buses to be built in Falkirk, this investment supports skilled, green manufacturing jobs in Scotland, as well as reducing transport emissions.
The Scottish Government has also published a new information and ideas pack which shows how the bus and finance sectors are innovating to speed up the transition to net-zero. This is the first report from The Bus Decarbonisation Taskforce, which brings together senior leaders from the energy, bus and finance sectors to co-design a pathway to a fully decarbonised bus fleet. The information pack identifies new routes for financing green buses that can build on government support and bring about faster fleet transformation.
Cabinet Secretary for Transport, Infrastructure and Connectivity Michael Matheson said:
“The Scottish Ultra-Low Emission Bus Scheme continues to help drive a green recovery, responding to the global climate emergency and improving air quality.
“Ensuring a just and fair transition to a net-zero economy is a truly national endeavour and I’m delighted that the Scottish Government’s investment is matched by private investment from bus operators and the finance sector. 172 of these new buses will be manufactured in Falkirk – benefitting the Scottish bus industry and wider supply chain.
“More journeys are made by bus compared to any other public transport mode and a vibrant bus industry can provide the solutions to complex challenges in our society. By helping operators to invest in a greener fleet we can support our green recovery – and keep more people moving with fewer carbon emissions and better air quality as a result.
“Our bus decarbonisation work, both through SULEBS and the Taskforce, is part of a wider package of support for our bus industry – including long-term funding of over £500 million for bus priority infrastructure. We’re also providing support of up to £191.3 to help maintain essential services during the COVID-19 pandemic and help keep Scotland moving.”
Paul Davies, Alexander Dennis President & Managing Director said: “The Scottish Government deserves huge credit for leading by example to support bus operator’s commitment to invest in cleaner, greener buses and we are delighted that bids for 172 of our electric buses have been successful.
“These zero emission buses will be built at our factory in Falkirk and therefore ensure this Scottish Government investment is made domestically, allowing the benefits to be felt across our communities whilst helping to underpin skilled jobs. We very much look forward to working with the successful operators to finalise terms and get these vehicles into service at pace.”
Paul White, Director at CPT Scotland said: “This announcement highlights the commitment of Scotland’s bus sector to decarbonisation. The £40.5m awarded by Government will be met with investment of over £80m from bus companies to fund these 215 vehicles.
“CPT will continue to work with Scottish Government to create an operating environment that prioritises sustainable and active travel, frees buses from congestion and maximises the benefits of this investment.”
Dave Moxham – Deputy General Secretary for the STUC and member of the Just Transition Commission said: “I am delighted to see that all of the ADL buses will be manufactured in Falkirk. This is positive news for the workers who through their union have been working hard to achieve this.
“There is no doubt that we need to build on our existing domestic manufacture if we are to ensure that Scotland can be at the forefront of a net-zero industrial revolution.
“This announcement is an example of the kind of interventions we need if we are to embark on a real green recovery.”

Ember Core Ltd
Bid: 6 single deck Yutong, 4 single deck arrival buses and infrastructure
Total funding awarded to date: £762,697.15

 

[GusB]

They must be branching out into service buses:-

https://www.transport.gov.scot/news/over-40-million-for-zero-emission-buses/



Ember Core Ltd
Bid: 6 single deck Yutong, 4 single deck arrival buses and infrastructure
Total funding awarded to date: £762,697.15

They had planned to branch out into buses as well as their coach service.

Speaking of the latter, I haven't heard any mention of it for some time and I can see from their website that they're running a normal service. I can only assume that things have bedded down now and that they've ironed out their initial teething troubles.

 

[Swanny200]

It certainly shows the benefit of something the IT industry learnt years ago - make sure you don't use the same plug/socket design for two things that can, if mixed up, cause damage.

Yes, exactly this, also another thing was to learn about voltage protection too which has been mentioned so that in the eventuality that somehow an issue does happen, that you don't end up wrecking what can be very costly equipment.

I can imagine the legal complications if someone charged their normal car in a charger aimed for a coach and it blew the car, I would assume that the charger was marked for coaches/buses only, if not then it should have been clearly marked.

 

[route101]

Seen one of the Ember coaches in Edinburgh last week, I thought it stopped as I've heard nothing on Social Media from them.

 

[MotCO]

True, makes me wonder if Ember and Arrival are maybe linked somehow

I wonder if Ember are hoping to run a bus service somewhere (a private contract perhaps, or airport service), or whether Arrival will make a coach.

 

[Volvodart]

The funding is available for local registered bus services only. Funding is not available for coaches or minibuses. They got funding for infrastructure in the last funding round, presumably due to their existing coach service being registered as a local bus service, but they did not get funding for the coaches.

 

[Swanny200]

I wonder if Ember are hoping to run a bus service somewhere (a private contract perhaps, or airport service), or whether Arrival will make a coach.

I don't know if Ember is looking at expanding further than where they are currently, so we would be looking at Edinburgh, Fife or Dundee, however according to Arrival themselves, their first vehicles are due to be delivered to consumers late this year, I should hope that the companies wishing to run the products whether it be van or coach would have at least a vehicle to evaluate before putting all their eggs in one basket, or at least a short route like an airport shuttle service to evaluate beforehand.

I know there is at least one bus out there as it has been running tests at Millbrook

 

[Jordan Adam]

I don't know if Ember is looking at expanding further than where they are currently, so we would be looking at Edinburgh, Fife or Dundee, however according to Arrival themselves, their first vehicles are due to be delivered to consumers late this year, I should hope that the companies wishing to run the products whether it be van or coach would have at least a vehicle to evaluate before putting all their eggs in one basket, or at least a short route like an airport shuttle service to evaluate beforehand.

I know there is at least one bus out there as it has been running tests at Millbrook

When launched they did have plans to expand further with new routes but what exactly these would be is unclear.

The issue with the Edinburgh, Fife and Dundee markets is they're already well covered. For example when the Dundee-Edinburgh service launched there was already a well served rail route, Citylink and the Xplore More X90. Although the X90 only went to the Airport many people used it to connect with the tram as a cheaper alternative to Citylink and Scotrail. So that's basically 4 different competitors on the same corridor. Since Ember only launched in October we're yet to see if passenger numbers will pick up, however most of the time the service is running with a few passengers at most and a number of times when there's been an issue with a coach the substitute has been a taxi type of vehicle.

Given they're Dundee based you'd expect any new routes will be in that area. Dundee-Perth is already well served, Stagecoach tried increasing the frequency of the X7 with a new X8 a few years ago and found little passenger increase. Likewise Aberdeen-Dundee is already well served. There is a case for an Aberdeen-A90-Dundee stopper service via Stonehaven, Laurencekirk, Forfar & Brechin etc but i can only see that being a success if operated by Stagecoach as it would mainly be targeting local passengers rather than those going from end to end. The only major market that leaves is Dundee-Glasgow, again already well covered by Citylink and Scotland, Xplore More pre-covid were already planning to launch a service along this corridor and with the recent sale to McGill's the likelihood of this happening in the near future seems even higher.

 

[Swanny200]

When launched they did have plans to expand further with new routes but what exactly these would be is unclear.

The issue with the Edinburgh, Fife and Dundee markets is they're already well covered. For example when the Dundee-Edinburgh service launched there was already a well served rail route, Citylink and the Xplore More X90. Although the X90 only went to the Airport many people used it to connect with the tram as a cheaper alternative to Citylink and Scotrail. So that's basically 4 different competitors on the same corridor. Since Ember only launched in October we're yet to see if passenger numbers will pick up, however most of the time the service is running with a few passengers at most and a number of times when there's been an issue with a coach the substitute has been a taxi type of vehicle.

Given they're Dundee based you'd expect any new routes will be in that area. Dundee-Perth is already well served, Stagecoach tried increasing the frequency of the X7 with a new X8 a few years ago and found little passenger increase. Likewise Aberdeen-Dundee is already well served. There is a case for an Aberdeen-A90-Dundee stopper service via Stonehaven, Laurencekirk, Forfar & Brechin etc but i can only see that being a success if operated by Stagecoach as it would mainly be targeting local passengers rather than those going from end to end. The only major market that leaves is Dundee-Glasgow, again already well covered by Citylink and Scotland, Xplore More pre-covid were already planning to launch a service along this corridor and with the recent sale to McGill's the likelihood of this happening in the near future seems even higher.

From seeing a few videos of the Arrival products, there is no coach planned as yet, just vans of various heights and buses, they even admitted that for the van, they are only looking at large companies like UPS, Royal Mail and Amazon at the moment and it will take at least 3 or 4 years for Joe Bloggs the plumber to get one should he want it, UPS have already asked for a big order (IIRC in the thousands). Arrival's main point is that they want their van to be the same price as a standard Diesel equivalent in the same parcel delivery spec, I don't know how much it costs Amazon or UPS per vehicle including conversion for parcel carrying to know if they are anywhere near.

So that rules out long distance coach with the Arrival vehicles, would they maybe go for one of the smaller routes that the likes of Bay Travel or M&W have perhaps?

 

[GusB]

Could we please try to keep discussions in the appropriate place. I moved posts from the manufacturers thread to here because they were specifically discussing the Ember services. If you wish to discuss Arrival's offerings, do so here:

Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

I'm sure a thread like this was created before, however i had a look and can no longer find it. The purpose of this thread is to post news and updates regarding bus manufacturers based in the UK such as ADL, Optare and Wright. Builders like Mellor Coachcraft who do the minibus van bodies are...

www.railforums.co.uk