Ember: Electric coach service

[AndrewTaylor95]

It's the terminus in Edinburgh which now has a shelter. Greenmarket always has had one AFAIK.

Bus stop was built a year or so ago it was never a bus route before Ember existed plus there's rapid chargers there, quite baffling, surely it will be used as a layover spot to charge back up again.

 

[Buzby]

Won’t the E3 still use it? It saves a trip yo the depot after dropping passengers off outside Dundee station.

 

[Strathtay 260]

Won’t the E3 still use it? It saves a trip yo the depot after dropping passengers off outside Dundee station.

Nope, the E3 will call at Dundee Slessor Gardens. After dropping the passengers off at the Railway Station, the coach goes back to the depot running the E10 service.

 

[overthewater]

Does anyone know when the soft launch will take place? This info comes from embers website.

 

[Metal Mickey]

Do Ember have an App?

 

[Strathtay 260]

Do Ember have an App?

No.

Does anyone know when the soft launch will take place? This info comes from ember

It's still unknown. I asked on the Ember website using the live chat feature and got this response:

Hi there,

The full launch will be on 22 October 2024, with 20 services per day running 24/7, for the soft launches, I would recommend keeping an eye on our website for updates, thanks!

 

[route101]

Is it just one route from Dundee to Aberdeen that is launching?

 

[Strathtay 260]

The first route from Aberdeen goes to Dundee and Edinburgh, it's just one launching next month.

 

[fife_circle]

Passed about 4 of the new ember coaches heading up King street, Aberdeen earlier this evening. Assume they’re starting to get the busses into place at the depot.

 

[AndrewTaylor95]

Passed about 4 of the new ember coaches heading up King street, Aberdeen earlier this evening. Assume they’re starting to get the busses into place at the depot.

Saw a load of them parked up at Bridge Of Don today

 

[smsm1]

Won’t the E3 still use it? It saves a trip yo the depot after dropping passengers off outside Dundee station.

One of the drivers mentioned that the chargers are too expensive which is why they now go back to the depot where it's much cheaper.

I'd have thought it would have been simpler to have the journeys as a through route to the depot rather than the change of route number plus extra fare to use that part. Would have been cheaper from the route registration fee perspective too.

 

[Buzby]

I suppose the misconception is that the Rapid Charger was ‘theirs’ in which case under their control (like at the depot). Clearly if it is a public charger, then the 20% VAT makes a difference (even if it is ultimately reclaimable by them).

It is breathtaking to see what normal EV drivers are expected to pay when away from their ‘home’ charger - indeed, if you have no driveway and access to your own charging infrastructure, EV ownership isn’t practical and the cost per mile exceeds that of combus engines.

 

[Strathtay 260]

I'd have thought it would have been simpler to have the journeys as a through route to the depot rather than the change of route number plus extra fare to use that part. Would have been cheaper from the route registration fee perspective too.

Yes! This is exactly what I have been thinking for a long time now. I suggested it to Ember, but they don't seem to be considering changing it for some reason. I think it would only be logical to drop the E10 brand and extend it onto the E1/E3. This also means booking is far less complicated when trying to find connecting journeys, and you don't have to change tickets in Dundee City Centre. They have said it is a local route rather than a long-distance route, despite the vast majority of passengers staying on after it starts its new route. It's a no brainer to me personally!

The above suggestions all make sense from the public perspective, as this would be simpler, however the existence of the E10 is helpful for keeping the services running smoothly from our end.

As we can run the E10 route under domestic rules, it means that the time a driver spends driving between MSIP and Greenmarket are not included in their 4h30m drive limit for the main E1 or E3 service, mandated by EU driving regulations.

Previously, any delayed journeys would require a second driver to drive out from Dundee, meet the service somewhere mid route, and complete the rest of the route for the first driver, to keep them legal under EU regulations.

The addition of the E10 feeds approximately an additional 30mins into our drivers allowed drive time, meaning these shunts are reduced to a couple a month as oppose to several a week.

Our tech team is currently working on adding the ability to book through tickets, so these tickets will no longer be needed to be booked separately, but the E10 route will be remaining in place for now.

I hope the above makes sense, please let us know if you have any other questions.

This is the response I received after emailing them about this.

 

[markymark2000]

Do they gain more money from concessionary travel cards if they separate the routes as passengers are technically making 2 journeys, not 1? Especially if they classify the services differently, one as long distance and one as local service.

I'm not sure on how the Scottish reimbursement works so I am just asking.

 

[smsm1]

Yes! This is exactly what I have been thinking for a long time now. I suggested it to Ember, but they don't seem to be considering changing it for some reason. I think it would only be logical to drop the E10 brand and extend it onto the E1/E3. This also means booking is far less complicated when trying to find connecting journeys, and you don't have to change tickets in Dundee City Centre. They have said it is a local route rather than a long-distance route, despite the vast majority of passengers staying on after it starts its new route. It's a no brainer to me personally!


This is the response I received after emailing them about this.

Ah so they are trying to get some an issue with driver hours. I'm surprised they can combine or stack the rules like that.

 

[318266]

Do they gain more money from concessionary travel cards if they separate the routes as passengers are technically making 2 journeys, not 1? Especially if they classify the services differently, one as long distance and one as local service.

I'm not sure on how the Scottish reimbursement works so I am just asking.

TL;DR Kind of... they would make more money, but not really by much as its based off the inflated Adult Single Onboard fare (as with the entire rest of the Scottish concessionary system).

This news release from Ember explains it quite well, explaining the recent near 100% onboard fare rise (which only affects about 0.5-2% of passengers). Due to the sheer length, I have cut down the unimportant bits.

In Scotland, a large proportion of the population – people over 60, under 22 or those with disabilities – are eligible for free bus travel. You get given a card for this which you tap as you get on board a bus. This tap allows the bus operator to claim back money for the journey from the government.

The government pays back operators a percentage of their regular adult single fare. This percentage varies between passenger types but for 60+ travellers it’s 55%. The idea of paying less than a full adult fare is that it’s supposed to leave operators no better or worse off due to the scheme, taking account of the fact that the scheme encourages more people to travel by bus and not all adults would otherwise buy the adult single fare.

This system means that two operators who compete on a route may get entirely different reimbursements for an identical journey, depending on their regular adult single fare. There’s a logic behind this. If one operator charges adults more, they’re probably justifying it by offering a better service (otherwise adults wouldn’t travel with them), and hence it’s reasonable for the government to reimburse them based on that higher fare.

But what if most adults don’t actually pay the regular adult single fare? At that point, the operator can just increase their regular adult single fare to get paid more by the government for concession travellers, without putting off their fare-paying passengers.

It turns out this isn’t a hypothetical. This is how the market functions today.

For example:

• Many operators offer significant discounts to adults who buy return tickets or daily/weekly passes. [Note from 318266: a good example is the McGill's ClydeFlyer, where a return/day is cheaper than a single in all bar a few intra-Inverclyde journeys]
• Some operators, particularly those running long-distance routes, sell a huge proportion of their tickets online at drastically discounted rates compared to the regular adult single fare charged onboard.

The more an operator does one of the above, the more they get paid for concessionary travel without having to increase the price that most of their regular travellers pay – a win for the operator but a loss for the taxpayer.

We saw these loopholes from the day we launched Ember and flagged them up in the hope they’d get addressed. But we also took a conscious decision not to optimise our pricing to exploit them, instead offering simple pricing where a return is just two one-way tickets and on-board fares only incur a small fixed premium compared to online fares.

The result has been that Ember is currently paid significantly less for each concession traveller compared to direct competitors running on the same route. Consider a single trip from Dundee to Edinburgh. The other operator running a comparable service to Ember is Citylink.

• Ember: The standard onboard fare is £10.50. Ember receives £5.78 if a 60+ concession pass holder chooses to travel with them.
• Citylink: The standard onboard fare is £22.30. Citylink receives £12.27 if a 60+ concession pass holder chooses to travel with them.

However, with both Citylink and Ember very few people pay the standard onboard fare – instead the vast majority book online (for Ember, about 98% of fare-paying passengers book online).

Ember’s online fare is currently £8.30 (prior to tomorrow's small increase). With Citylink, there are lots of ways to book online at completely different prices. For example, it’s easy to book for £7.10 on almost every service tomorrow (as of 22 May).

The trick is that Citylink has set their onboard fare so they are earning far more money from concessions, without having to charge fare-paying adults any more.

We believe this system is fundamentally flawed. It represents poor value for money for the government and means we are not operating on a level playing field with the competition. No matter how much focus we put on optimising our costs to deliver better value for money, Citylink will not feel the competitive pressure because they are being paid so much more for taking each concession card holder. It’s a broken market.

To address this, we’ve also decided to update our pricing from 23 May so we’re no longer operating at such a disadvantage. As such, onboard fares will be increasing much more. The price changes will vary based on the exact journey but take Dundee to Edinburgh as an example:

• Current onboard fare is £10.50
• New onboard fare will be £19.90 [Note from 318266: an 89.5% increase]

We don’t love making this change. We’d be happy to revert it when the system is fixed and a level playing field is restored. And we have a practical suggestion for fixing the system – pay operators based on the average adult fare actually charged, not the theoretical onboard single fare. This resolves all of the issues identified, whilst not requiring the government to set fares on every route across the country.

 

[Volvodart]

The soft launch from Aberdeen to Edinburgh started today with 2 services available, with several for tomorrow.

 

[Strathtay 260]

The soft launch from Aberdeen to Edinburgh started today with 2 services available, with several for tomorrow.

I wonder if it will be, as booking suggests, just today and tomorrow or there will be other days it's running.

 

[Buzby]

I wonder if it will be, as booking suggests, just today and tomorrow

Looks like it - I tried to book for this Friday and nothing is showing. They seem to be starting from 22nd

 

[Strathtay 260]

They seem to be starting from 22nd

That's when the full 24/7 service launches. The services running today and tomorrow are direct services for their 'soft launch'.

 

[smsm1]

I suspect there will be other running days at short notice for the soft launch.

 

[Volvodart]

Services up to 19 October 2024 have now been added.

 

[Strathtay 260]

I noticed Brechin can now be booked for the soft start services, unlike before.

 

[kkong]

I noticed Brechin can now be booked for the soft start services, unlike before.

Indeed, there were passengers boarding and alighting at Brechin yesterday (2nd October).

 

[overthewater]

I would be really surprised if this doesn't damage Stagecoach service 21, its night and day for direct access to Dundee.

 

[route101]

Is there still plans for a service up the A92 to Aberdeen?

 

[Strathtay 260]

Is there still plans for a service up the A92 to Aberdeen?

Not sure. Perhaps the Aberdeen to Glasgow service will go this way. However, it would make for a very long trip to Glasgow so I suspect not!

 

[gingerheid]

Aberdeen services showing on bustimes.org from 22 October. Roughly hourly Aberdeen to Edinburgh 21 hours a day, with the gap in Aberdeen being morning rush hour!

 

[Volvodart]

The last 2 days soft start before the timetable starts have now been released for booking.

 

[cumbrianbill]

I was on the 14.19 E1 service from St Andrews Square to Aberdeen on Sunday 20th October. I booked a scottish concession ticket online, and was not charged a reservation fee. The coach was very smart, but we had an unplanned recharging stop at Dundee Greenmarket to get the batteries back to 40%. The winds were blamed.