Ember: Electric coach service

[overthewater]

I think it must be noted that Ember is growing the market, and has picked up a new customer base. Ive do spot Flix and Citylink and they can still be busy, I'm all for this if we can get more cars off the roads.

 

[route101]

The things that keeps me with Ember over Citylink are that the site is way easier to use. Though be interesting to see how they manage as the scale up.
I can easily book at short notice without issue and extra costs, whereas with Citylink short notice singles can be expensive and it doesn't appear to be easy to move the return journey should it be needed if you are about to miss the coach, whereas that's easy to do with Ember.

Yes, unless the ember service is sold out its the same price. Dundee is a good price compared to the train. Citylink services sell out too and have lost that walk up nature.

 

[peterblue]

I plan on riding the new Fort William route next Friday.

It doesn't look particularly busy at the moment, however, with 1-2 seats sold on most departures next week except for a Wednesday PM journey departing Fort William with about 10 passengers.

I think the route has potential though, especially as we begin to approach the peak season.

My main concern is whether Ember have managed to recruit enough drivers to actually run this service, as I would be stranded should the coach not turn up.

I'm also surprised by the relative lack of stops e.g. there's no stop in Callander or in Crianlarich.

 

[InOban]

I think it must be noted that Ember is growing the market, and has picked up a new customer base. Ive do spot Flix and Citylink and they can still be busy, I'm all for this if we can get more cars off the roads.

I would suggest that the market has grown because of the generosity of the ScoGov bus pass, now extended to under 22s. When introduced it included coaches (which I define as limited stop and generally booked in advance) because throughout the West Highlands these services also provided the only bus service ( stops almost anywhere on request and no pre-booking). Quite reasonable but this is where the law of unintended consequences comes in. Bus pass reimbursements are now being used to support the growth of Intercity coach services.

The under 22s and 60+ population are the major market for public transport because they are less likely to have cars or at least drive long distances and these Intercity operators are exploiting the rules to provide services which are purely coaches with no bus element. I would guess that outwith the tourist season the vast majority of passengers are getting their fare paid by the ScoGov.

At the same time the ScoGov is heavily subsidising train services operating along the same routes*. Given the state of their finances, it makes no sense. Bus passes should only be valid on routes which provide a bus service for a substantial part of their journey.
But given that there's an election next year, I don't expect this nettle to be grasped.

* I know that the coaches and the train take a different routes between Dundee and Aberdeen buf since most coaches run nonstop, it makes no difference.

 

[Porty]

I would suggest that the market has grown because of the generosity of the ScoGov bus pass, now extended to under 22s. When introduced it included coaches (which I define as limited stop and generally booked in advance) because throughout the West Highlands these services also provided the only bus service ( stops almost anywhere on request and no pre-booking). Quite reasonable but this is where the law of unintended consequences comes in. Bus pass reimbursements are now being used to support the growth of Intercity coach services.

The under 22s and 60+ population are the major market for public transport because they are less likely to have cars or at least drive long distances and these Intercity operators are exploiting the rules to provide services which are purely coaches with no bus element. I would guess that outwith the tourist season the vast majority of passengers are getting their fare paid by the ScoGov.

At the same time the ScoGov is heavily subsidising train services operating along the same routes*. Given the state of their finances, it makes no sense. Bus passes should only be valid on routes which provide a bus service for a substantial part of their journey.
But given that there's an election next year, I don't expect this nettle to be grasped.

* I know that the coaches and the train take a different routes between Dundee and Aberdeen buf since most coaches run nonstop, it makes no difference.

As I understand it a "bus" element will be introduced very soon with shorter hops available just as on the Dundee to Edinburgh corridor. Awaiting formal registration?

 

[PG]

As I understand it a "bus" element will be introduced very soon with shorter hops available just as on the Dundee to Edinburgh corridor. Awaiting formal registration?

This could be very significant if it were to limit concession card holders purely to services that permit journeys of 15 miles or less. Perhaps worth of discussion in a new thread?

 

[Porty]

This could be very significant if it were to limit concession card holders purely to services that permit journeys of 15 miles or less. Perhaps worth of discussion in a new thread?

Ember are accepting concession cards from the start of service on Wednesday.

 

[Numpt33]

How do you get a fuel rebate with an electric vehicle?

Network Support Grand and BSOG in Scotland have been paid per service kilometres for decades now. It has no tie to fuel consumption at all.

It hasn’t been Fuel Duty Rebate since 2002. Adding the stops such as Walnut Grove will allow the operator to claim BSOG (Bus Service Operators Grant), which is paid per live kilometre. The electric buses will qualify for an enhanced rate. Full details of the (Scottish) scheme can be found here. https://www.transport.gov.scot/media/44451/bsog-guidance-march-2019.pdf

Sorry but BSOG was replaced with "Network Support Grant" https://www.transport.gov.scot/NSGGuidance

 

[Buzby]

This could be very significant if it were to limit concession card holders purely to services that permit journeys of 15 miles or less. Perhaps worth of discussion in a new thread?

It’ll certainly be a heated one - the limitations are clearly specified (no special routes, excursions or night services) indeed the AIR service which excluded concession when it started changed to accept them after 12 months. Since Ember have been up front as to why they’ve been manipulated to raise their costs, they’re not likely to want to open this can of worms.

 

[Stan Drews]

Network Support Grand and BSOG in Scotland have been paid per service kilometres for decades now. It has no tie to fuel consumption at all.


Sorry but BSOG was replaced with "Network Support Grant" https://www.transport.gov.scot/NSGGuidance

The post you have quoted is from 2020, two years before it was replaced by NSG.

 

[gingerheid]

Recruitment underway for Thurso, and it was reported somewhere (can't find the link now!) that their charging bay (rented on a 15 year lease) is being constructed. https://ember.recruitee.com/o/lead-driver-full-time-fort-william-2-3 (link address says Fort William, but text updated to Thurso).

I have to say I'm increasingly surprised by how this story is turning out! I did not think that Fort William and Thurso would be relatively early additions to the network!

I guess that, given the infrastructure they need, we might be about to see a big increase in the number of routes if they start joining the dots? Inverness to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Thurso & Fort William will all become possible at the same time?

 

[smsm1]

I was on the Ember from Tyndrum to Dunblane yesterday. Heard that Oban is due to start in the next few months.

More luggage including a bike underneath than I've seen on any of the other routes I've been on, so this could be a limiting factor which may need more time at stops to move luggage around.

Oce couple had just walked the west Highland Way and only come across Ember due to Google maps, with the train station connection at Dunblane being useful. We find that connection being useful too as it's the closest place that we can connect on to the Ember network.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Whilst rapid expansion is full of risk, I do think Ember will see themselves ok at the other side of this.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I think so too. Not only do you appeal to those with a green agenda but they are providing in many cases a genuine Express coach network to places that have either got one that's overpriced already or haven't got one at all. And I don't suppose even Stagecoach will complain about their service taking some pressure off the x99 to the extreme far north, for example, although they may be missing a trick by not serving the ferry for orkney directly, although admittedly haven't seen the timetable, so perhaps they are going to

 

[MotCO]

I think so too. Not only do you appeal to those with a green agenda but they are providing in many cases a genuine Express coach network to places that have either got one that's overpriced already or haven't got one at all. And I don't suppose even Stagecoach will complain about their service taking some pressure off the x99 to the extreme far north, for example, although they may be missing a trick by not serving the ferry for orkney directly, although admittedly haven't seen the timetable, so perhaps they are going to

I must admit I was a bit worried when a new competitor entered the market, but Ember seem to be doing alright for themselves, and have either found a niche in the market, got their pricing just right, or attract passengers due to their motive power. Good luck to them!

 

[slowroad]

I must admit I was a bit worried when a new competitor entered the market, but Ember seem to be doing alright for themselves, and have either found a niche in the market, got their pricing just right, or attract passengers due to their motive power. Good luck to them!

Other than nostalgia, is there any case for continuing to (heavily) subsidise rail journeys to the same locations?

 

[InOban]

Why are these services being subsidised by scogov via the bus passes? I would guess that the vast majority of the passengers are either under 22 or over 60.

 

[Scotrail88]

Why are these services being subsidised by scogov via the bus passes? I would guess that the vast majority of the passengers are either under 22 or over 60.

They aren’t subsidising the services - the government reimburses a proportion of the fare to the operator running the service.

If you think it’s a subsidy - it’s to the passenger. No different than the subsidy paid to the pharmacist for your prescription

 

[overthewater]

I'm surprised there going northward, what happened to the going southwards to Newcastle and York etc?

 

[InOban]

Makes no difference.
The enormous increase in the number of intercity coach services has coincided with the expansion of the scogov scheme. Any alternative explanation?

 

[overthewater]

Makes no difference.
The enormous increase in the number of intercity coach services has coincided with the expansion of the scogov scheme. Any alternative explanation?

There not been a enormous increase, Ember has started brand new routes which give people who were cut off, new direct links. I can't believe the coaches are just filled with Under 22 or Over 60s, Some of the busiest are at peak times.

 

[Megafuss]

It will be interesting to see the timetable for the Thurso runs.The X99 doesn't have an early morning trip from Inverness and the Sunday service is sparse..

 

[Glasgowbusguy]

Most of embers routes that compete with the train are actually on train routes that are over capacity and have have limited or room for capacity increases. Where they compete with other buses it's usually routes that are again very busy struggling with capacity.

 

[AndrewTaylor95]

I used to the 20:08 Fort William to Dunblane connection onto Glasgow, let's just say I never made it to Glasgow and had to stay on to Edinburgh to get a 900 to Glasgow, 25 minutes late and missing the E3 by 2 minutes, not great, was only one other passenger on with no stopping, Drive was slow, I get the nature of how tight the roads are but to have a 22 minute connection time reduced to actually missing it altogether is scandalous.

 

[Spsf3232]

I used to the 20:08 Fort William to Dunblane connection onto Glasgow, let's just say I never made it to Glasgow and had to stay on to Edinburgh to get a 900 to Glasgow, 25 minutes late and missing the E3 by 2 minutes, not great, was only one other passenger on with no stopping, Drive was slow, I get the nature of how tight the roads are but to have a 22 minute connection time reduced to actually missing it altogether is scandalous.

Bank holiday weekend on the a82 is absolute hell, not much can be done about traffic through the summer and on bank holidays

 

[AndrewTaylor95]

Bank holiday weekend on the a82 is absolute hell, not much can be done about traffic through the summer and on bank holidays

There wasn't any traffic road was clear, kept pulling in to let cars past, driver wasn't the quickest, Easter is over and done with now as well wouldn't have been any need for it to be busy at 9 o'clock at night going into a normal working week

 

[GusB]

Why are these services being subsidised by scogov via the bus passes? I would guess that the vast majority of the passengers are either under 22 or over 60.

No doubt there will be some domestic passengers who qualify for free travel but some of those people might make additional journeys that simply weren't possible before and I don't necessarily think that's a bad thing. If these additional services pick up visitors who don't qualify, that a bonus.

Ember makes it quite clear on its website that bikes are welcome so it may well appeal to outdoorsy types. While you referred to the "tourist season" in one of your earlier posts, not everyone wants to travel in high summer when everything is busy and accommodation is expensive.

I think it's too early to be making any judgements. Let the new services bed in and see if they make money; if they don't, they'll be axed.

 

[smsm1]

Some of the drivers are new to the routes and not used to the road so a bit more cautious with there driving. The driver I had coming back was noticeable more confident with the route than the one heading north who said it was the first time he was doing the journey. Both journeys on time or within a few minutes.

 

[NorthOxonian]

I also suspect that if journeys do end up being consistently late then they may change the timetables - I'm not sure exactly how they designed them but if they did a sample of runs of the route (for instance) it's possible they somehow underestimated journey times.

 

[Blindtraveler]

In the early days they were always pretty responsive to changing running times, etc. On their Edinburgh Dundee runs