Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Wire the Marston Vale and they could pop over every night...
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EMR Class 360's
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STINT47
Member
Wire the Marston Vale and they could pop over every night...
Maybe one of the D Trains could drag them over
Your right about EMR being poorly managed. I know this debate has been done to death already, but spending millions on advertising a new 'mascot' seems counterintuitive when your 'state of the art' desiro fleet is achieving little over 50% reliability and you can't even afford to fix your train wash...
Considering Vivarail are in administration at present, maybe this could be a new use for 230s if they leave WMT. Chuck some Dellners on them and shove a bigger Turbo on their Ford Transit engines underneath and there you have it
As been said before though, different budgets for different purposes. With the DfT calling the shots at every turn, it wouldnt at all surprise me if the carriage wash repairs has to be signed off by Marsham Street, who likely in this climate, continually say no. As for Miles, as others have said, love him or loathe him, it seems to be doing reasonably well in creating conversation for the company - so in that sense it’s worked. And is probably a better amount of expenditure than GWRs New Nameplates for every Class 43 & 57, when the former are likely to entirely be gone by next year.Your right about EMR being poorly managed. I know this debate has been done to death already, but spending millions on advertising a new 'mascot' seems counterintuitive when your 'state of the art' desiro fleet is achieving little over 50% reliability and you can't even afford to fix your train wash...
Considering Vivarail are in administration at present, maybe this could be a new use for 230s if they leave WMT. Chuck some Dellners on them and shove a bigger Turbo on their Ford Transit engines underneath and there you have it
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If they chuck them in the bin it was money wasted. If they sell them then they'll probably get more than they paid for them. (Never understood the way the railway likes to shove destruction orders on everything, I reckon there are enough enthusiasts who'd buy a Grammer IC3000 desk chair or similar for them to flog the lot given how well the companies that sell bits of old plane do).
Any problem with the train beneath the floor can only be fixed in Northampton.
EMR are now spending a load of money upgrading Bedford Cauldwell Walk so that it can do the more routine repair and maintenance there.
That makes a lot of sense then, and probably explains a lot of the issues.
spotify95
Member
Welp, I think we've hit an all time low here, as (according to the EMR website) all of the attached services have changes to on train facilities (i.e. they will be formed of 4 coaches instead of 8):
Truly awful in my opinion, the reliability of the Class 360s is what I would call "disgustingly shocking". I understand that they weren't treated the best when GA knew they would be getting new Class 720's, but the treatment of ALL EMR services has well and truly gone down the pan - the Meridian's are starting to feel tired and really unloved, the 360s had the 110mph modifications and nothing else, even though the only 110mph running they can do is between Bedford and Wellingborough (Wellingborough to Kettering is rated 110 down/120 up but only for HST permitted trains, whereas ALL EMU's can only run at 100mph south of Bedford), and the 360's are STILL awaiting their planned "refurbishment".
Other general oddities that I shall bring up:
The 222 Meridians are getting LED lights fitted - mostly to replace the GU10/MR16 halogens down the middle of the aisles - but no other love
The 360 Desiro's still have their original fluorescent lights in rather dated looking enclosures - these really need modernizing as part of the interior refurbishment
Going North, the 360s pull over to the Slow lines at Kettering South Junction - why?! Not only is the junction speed slower (30mph compared to the upgraded 50mph junction at Wellingborough North), but it also creates TWO sticky points/bottlenecks: if the 360 is more than 1 minute late departing Wellingborough, it WILL impact the following Sheffield service, with the latter catching up to the 360 as it leaves Wellingborough. But since the points at Kettering South are rated at just 30mph, the 360 has to slow down in plenty of time on the Fast lines, meaning that the following Sheffield (and possibly the Nottingham, which will be directly behind the Sheffield) will be impacted again by the 360.
Whereas, if the 360's were moved over at Wellingborough North, yes the 360s would be capped at 90mph instead, but they wouldn't have to slow down from 100mph to 30mph, and it would only affect the Sheffield once (and even then, probably not that much as the signal at Wellingborough station would clear from Red straight to Green when the 360 goes onto the Down Slow).
All in all, a lot of improvements to be made!
Truly awful in my opinion, the reliability of the Class 360s is what I would call "disgustingly shocking". I understand that they weren't treated the best when GA knew they would be getting new Class 720's, but the treatment of ALL EMR services has well and truly gone down the pan - the Meridian's are starting to feel tired and really unloved, the 360s had the 110mph modifications and nothing else, even though the only 110mph running they can do is between Bedford and Wellingborough (Wellingborough to Kettering is rated 110 down/120 up but only for HST permitted trains, whereas ALL EMU's can only run at 100mph south of Bedford), and the 360's are STILL awaiting their planned "refurbishment".
Other general oddities that I shall bring up:
The 222 Meridians are getting LED lights fitted - mostly to replace the GU10/MR16 halogens down the middle of the aisles - but no other love
The 360 Desiro's still have their original fluorescent lights in rather dated looking enclosures - these really need modernizing as part of the interior refurbishment
Going North, the 360s pull over to the Slow lines at Kettering South Junction - why?! Not only is the junction speed slower (30mph compared to the upgraded 50mph junction at Wellingborough North), but it also creates TWO sticky points/bottlenecks: if the 360 is more than 1 minute late departing Wellingborough, it WILL impact the following Sheffield service, with the latter catching up to the 360 as it leaves Wellingborough. But since the points at Kettering South are rated at just 30mph, the 360 has to slow down in plenty of time on the Fast lines, meaning that the following Sheffield (and possibly the Nottingham, which will be directly behind the Sheffield) will be impacted again by the 360.
Whereas, if the 360's were moved over at Wellingborough North, yes the 360s would be capped at 90mph instead, but they wouldn't have to slow down from 100mph to 30mph, and it would only affect the Sheffield once (and even then, probably not that much as the signal at Wellingborough station would clear from Red straight to Green when the 360 goes onto the Down Slow).
All in all, a lot of improvements to be made!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Absolutely nothing wrong with them. You could fit LED tubes but these are often low quality.
They won't be allowed to buy fluorescent tubes from next summer so either:
- stock up now or
- swap to LED tubes or
- replace the fittings.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Or start to use LED tubes from when they run out of stock. TOCs have never cared about matching colour temperature.
spotify95
Member
Indeed, I just realized that fluorescent bulbs, including CFL, are to be phased out from August 2023, so just like the other types of phased out bulbs, you can buy them, but not import more or produce more.
This will also mean that fluorescent ballasts and starters will stop being produced, due to no longer being required, and anyone still using fluorescent fittings will have a hard time getting replacements when the originals conk out.
The future is LED - and EMR are doing it with their Meridians, so why not do the same with the Desiros?
InTheEastMids
Member
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0756 and 0825 EMR connect services from Wellingborough to London were both cancelled this morning.
So EMR had the 0614 Lincoln-St Pancras (which I was on) called additionally. Good. Unfortunately nobody seemed to have told the waiting customers on P4 that this was happening. At least some customers seemed to make it over the bridge but many left behind I think.
On the plus side, my EMR services both ways (10 & 7 cars) appear to be full & standing in std class at least
You are right about the junction speed and they should indeed go over at Wellingborough North. However you can't moan about EMR for that as I'm sure they would be ok with that , surely that's the signallers choice. It is sometimes done.
On RTT, they appear to be booked to cross at Kettering South rather than Wellingborough North. IIRC they used to be booked to cross at Wellingborough, so it's a planning decision either by EMR or NR. (or, very unlikely, an error.) https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/se...08/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=passenger&order=wtt
Nottingham59
Established Member
I have always assumed that pattern is to allow southbound 360s to cross over to the fasts earlier, at Kettering South, if needed. And vice versa, allowing operational flexibility in both directions without conflict.
Which means that if a northbound 360 is going to hold up a following service, then the signallers would ideally take the option of crossing it over earlier, to get out of the way. But obviously they don't always do that.
Looks like 5 of today's 6 diagrams are short formed with 4-car units. That's 7 units out of a fleet of 21 in service.
Presumably the other two thirds of the fleet are currently having the long promised internal refurbishment and heavy maintenance ready for the introduction of 12-car operations with the new timetable early next week.
Or maybe not, and the 14 units are just languishing in some siding unloved and unserviceable.
Presumably the other two thirds of the fleet are currently having the long promised internal refurbishment and heavy maintenance ready for the introduction of 12-car operations with the new timetable early next week.
Or maybe not, and the 14 units are just languishing in some siding unloved and unserviceable.
I imagine part of it is down to the Nottingham - London service passes Wellingborough a couple of minutes after the Corby services depart. So by crossing at Kettering south has more 'room' in the timetable.
Worth pointing out that before the 2tph from Corby, the intermediate stations received 1tph from Corby and 1 tph from Nottingham, usually formed of a 5 car Meridian.
The seating capacity of a 5 car 222 is 50 1st class, 192 standard compared this to the 360s (albeit as 3+2 currently) 16 1st class and 264 standard class.
Given that the trains coming from Corby will be much more lightly loaded than those from Nottingham / Leicester - even with the shorter formations, the likelihood of getting a seat, even with a 4 car 360 is much better than it would be on a 5 car 222.
The class 317s were absolutely battered by the end, but they carried on with minimal fuss, covering all their own diagrams and several more as well. Four of them were parked at Harwich for months. One pair famously ran empty direct to Liverpool Street to work the 10:28 to Cambridge. No doubt a fitter gave them a once over, but they won't have had any serious work done on them at Harwich before returning to service.
The 360s are likely a lot more needy in the maintenance aspect I would imagine regarding their more complex systems and TMS. It is still amazing that the 317s went on for so long so reliably considering they were circa 40 years old as you say, whilst the 360s are half that age and can barely manage 50% reliability.
bramling
Veteran Member
I have my suspicions that the real problem isn’t so much the 360s, but the way the maintenance is arranged. Outstabling at Cricklewood and Kettering, a minor depot built for a completely different purpose and positioned at a location where not one single service starts or finishes from, and a major depot not even on the route. My suspicion is that the trains simply aren’t able to be brought to depot as readily as they need to be.
no need to be suspicious, it’s fact!
Merle Haggard
Established Member
I've travelled North from Wellingborough about once a week most weeks since restrictions were lifted, usually soon after mid-day. The number of passengers waiting at Wellingborough for trains leaving 12.07 to 14.07 is usually 5 or 6 per train. The number leaving the train at Kettering to continue a journey further North is usually about 20. Difficult to estimate the number remaining on towards Corby plus those for that station joining at Kettering but a guess is, at most, 20
Although criticism for not adhering to a very un-demanding plan is fair, for the loadings North of Bedford off peak even a 4 car 3+2 train is generous. Putting the 4-car 180 on a late afternoon up Nottingham surely deserves more criticism.
But I accept that there may be more demand on other parts of the circuit.
Whether 8 car capacity is required South of Bedford is also a question of whether the Corby Connect mostly abstract Thames Link passengers or generate new travel.
Although criticism for not adhering to a very un-demanding plan is fair, for the loadings North of Bedford off peak even a 4 car 3+2 train is generous. Putting the 4-car 180 on a late afternoon up Nottingham surely deserves more criticism.
But I accept that there may be more demand on other parts of the circuit.
Whether 8 car capacity is required South of Bedford is also a question of whether the Corby Connect mostly abstract Thames Link passengers or generate new travel.
But presumably still no suggestion the Marston Vale be wired to allow rotation through King's Heath? Even a 47 being left at Bedford overnight if needed?
With respect I’m 99% sure you’ve asked this question before and been given the same answers. The crossing at Kettering South is booked, and the following Sheffield and Notts will generally be checked down if they're early, which they tend to be if they don’t get caught behind GTRs further south, but this won’t make them late (unless the 360 is late, obviously).
Ideally there would have been a crossing from the down fast to the down slow at Wellingborough south, but IIRC there wasn’t room. There are pathing issues crossing at Wellingborough North due to freight paths, but this is done on occasion and works better.
Yep the 222s have a lot fewer seats. That said the 4 car 360s really are getting very busy now, so it’s not ideal to run them. Still better than cancelling the train altogether, though, which is the alternative given the availability issues
A fact that has been repeated many, many times on this thread.
bramling
Veteran Member
Would a small maintenance depot at Kettering have been viable?
Halish Railway
Established Member
Let’s hope that once electrification reaches Nottingham and Derby EMR can have their own EMU depot to service the Corby units and any other electric / battery electric units they have to take advantage of more electrification.
That's still one long old run to get the units seen to.
Better than dragging them half way across the country to Northampton…
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