Mikey C
Established Member
- Joined
- 11 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 7,508
And the Thameslink services have the benefit of serving so many other parts of London or being an easy connection (via Farringdon or London Bridge).
-
Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!
EMR Class 360's
- Thread starter thealm
- Start date
- Status
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R
RailUK Forums
Merle Haggard
Established Member
Perhaps it's aimed also at passengers from North of Luton.
But at least someone prepared to travel by Ryan Air or Easy Jet ought not to be too critical of the interior environment of the 360s
QSK19
Member
Agreed - the rumoured budget “refurbishment” would be befitting of a train calling at an airport used by budget airlines. Maybe the DfT will see my post and use that as the excuse for scrimping on the refurb specBut at least someone prepared to travel by Ryan Air or Easy Jet ought not to be too critical of the interior environment of the 360s
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Agreed - the rumoured budget “refurbishment” would be befitting of a train calling at an airport used by budget airlines. Maybe the DfT will see my post and use that as the excuse for scrimping on the refurb spec
It's really the same as StanEx - a normal semifast regional service that happens to serve an airport. Indeed GatEx is more like that now. Only HEx really isn't, and Heathrow is unique as being the UK's premier airport.
On the other hand there's no harm in a bit of marketing.
Mikey C
Established Member
- Joined
- 11 Feb 2013
- Messages
- 7,508
And Luton Airport Parkway isn't even at the airport, you still need to change onto a shuttle bus (or soon train) to get to the airport itself, making it even less of a "premium" service
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Once the shuttle is open it's no different from Birmingham, or the Gatwick terminal that isn't at the station (I always forget which way round it is). Or even Manchester which has quite a long walk to either terminal with the station in the middle.
North terminal requires the people mover at Gatwick, South terminal is directly connected to the station.
However the Gatwick PM is free, AIUI, whereas Luton will have a small charge. Not sure about Brum.
QSK19
Member
Brum’s is free to use too.
Railperf
Established Member
- Joined
- 30 Oct 2017
- Messages
- 3,110
Not sure if it has been mentioned, but January Modern Railways issue indicates that EMR are improving reliability of the 360's to their more usually expected levels of Siemens MU's.
On the ground the reliability seems to be going the right way at last. The challenge is the depot, but that's not going to change for a while.
spotify95
Member
Goody goody, and I have also noticed that there are much less 4 car short formations running as well. I even saw a couple of spare units in the sidings passing Kettering today!
(On a related note, anyone know why they keep the lights on in the train even when parked in the sidings? Seems like a waste of energy to me.)
Now all we need is the promised refurbishment of the 360s including plug sockets, tables and new 2+2 seating to make the on board experience match the Intercity services. Remember, we're still paying Intercity prices.
QSK19
Member
As much as I am in agreement with you and as annoyed as you are, it won’t happen.
The goalposts and financial landscape have changed since EMR’s ambitious plans back in 2019 - I seem to remember a Modern Railways interview with EMR stating that the refurbishment spec has had to be watered down. The “refurbishment” would probably end up consisting of new seat covers, plug sockets and, if you’re lucky, a deep clean.
Very, very frustrating that the East Midlands is once again the poor relation (e.g. the 360s’ run-down condition upon arrival from GA, the 156/9s, the appalling condition of the 15x stock that EMT inherited, the ex-LNER HST debacle, etc); but there’s not much that can be done.
spotify95
Member
Marvelous timetabling with the 360s today!
The current 360 timetable only works if the 360 itself departs bang on time at Wellingborough. Any delays - even a couple of minutes - affects other trains on the route.
Today the 07:39 was 5 minutes late leaving Wellingborough (amazingly not departing the Fast at Wellingborough North) which heavily impacted the Sheffield following - it must have seen a red at some point as it had a yellow going through Wellingborough. Even the Nottingham was affected because, despite leaving at the scheduled 07:51, it still couldn't accelerate normally, as it had (at one stage) a yellow from the Sheffield in front of it.
Plus, having to continue to Kettering South (and brake on the Fast for a 30mph limit) will have impacted the Sheffield a second time...
The timetabling of these 360s really doesn't work - when the Slows were reintroduced, why weren't they engineered for 90mph (like the rest of the Slows north of Wellingborough) so that the 360s could run on those north of Bedford, thereby relieving the apparently clear bottleneck - thanks to this, we're now late into Kettering...
P.S. At least the 360s are all running as 8 car services, no short forms!
The current 360 timetable only works if the 360 itself departs bang on time at Wellingborough. Any delays - even a couple of minutes - affects other trains on the route.
Today the 07:39 was 5 minutes late leaving Wellingborough (amazingly not departing the Fast at Wellingborough North) which heavily impacted the Sheffield following - it must have seen a red at some point as it had a yellow going through Wellingborough. Even the Nottingham was affected because, despite leaving at the scheduled 07:51, it still couldn't accelerate normally, as it had (at one stage) a yellow from the Sheffield in front of it.
Plus, having to continue to Kettering South (and brake on the Fast for a 30mph limit) will have impacted the Sheffield a second time...
The timetabling of these 360s really doesn't work - when the Slows were reintroduced, why weren't they engineered for 90mph (like the rest of the Slows north of Wellingborough) so that the 360s could run on those north of Bedford, thereby relieving the apparently clear bottleneck - thanks to this, we're now late into Kettering...
P.S. At least the 360s are all running as 8 car services, no short forms!
Last edited:
Halish Railway
Established Member
I’d say Wellingborough South Junction is the biggest issue - I can’t figure out why it hasn’t been rebuilt to allow parallel movements at 70mph from the Down slow to Wellingborough platform 3 and from Platform 4 to the Up fast in the style of Hanslope and Ledburn Junctions on the WCML.
There’s a similar case further up the WCML at Euxton Junction that hasn’t been rebuilt to allow parallel movements from the slow lines to the recently electrified route to Bolton and Manchester.
Another oddity I don't understand, but maybe there is a reason somewhere. Sometimes the 360 goes over at Wellingborough North , but mostly at Kettering South. Much better over at Wellingborough.
Presumably because nobody had a few billion spare to rebuild the entire section of route! It has been resignalled and significantly upgraded.
@Bald Rick can probably confirm, although this has been asked and answered several times in the past.
That would have been the ideal but there wasn’t room apparently.
Freight paths, isn’t it?
Last edited:
spotify95
Member
Exactly my thoughts.
It is way better to move over at Wellingborough North, because (a) that junction was rebuilt to 50mph (was previously 25mph) and (b) it gets the 360 out of the way, so it won't hold up the following trains. Plus, the signal will clear from red straight to green as the 360 gets out of the way.
At Kettering South, you have a 30mph limit, so the 360 has to start braking on the Down Fast. So if it wasn't bad enough for the Sheffield (or Nottingham) to catch the 360 at Wellingborough, it also catches up on the approach to Kettering South Junction. Two bottlenecks, not just one. Furthermore, the difference between the Down Fast and Down Slow is only 10mph on the main stretch (for 360s) which would be better for the 360 to remain on the DS from WEL, so it doesn't lose time crawling across a junction at 30mph (from 100mph!).
But if something is approaching on the Up Fast when the train is at Wellingborough, it's better for the overall traffic flow to keep going up to Kettering.
E.g. 1Y07 St Pancras - Corby departs Wellingborough to the DF at 08:11, but there's 1B16 Lincoln-St Pancras passing Wellingborough P2 at 08:13. 1F12 St P - Sheffield follows on the DF at 08:16. Holding 1Y07 by 2.5 minutes to depart behind 1B16 would cause delay to 1F12 (and 1D13 behind it). You could push 1B16 back but then it risks missing it's slot at St Pancras.
By the time it gets to Kettering South Junction, 1F12 is only 3 minutes behind 1Y07 but it then gets a clear run from Kettering towards Harborough, and 1Y07 is 6 minutes after the previous UF train and 4 minutes ahead of the next one.
spotify95
Member
This sort of scenario would work in theory, but only if the StP-Corby services arrive, and depart, on time from Wellingborough. Most of the time, the Corby service is running late, which (even at a couple of minutes delay) will cause a negative impact to the Sheffield service by the time the Corby service reaches Kettering South, at the very least. More often than not, even a 2-3 minute delay to the Corby (1Y07 in this instance) will also hold up 1F12 behind it departing Wellingborough - I have seen many a time when the Sheffield service has gone through Wellingborough station slowly and proceeded on a cautionary aspect (due to the Corby service ahead of it).
Such a small delay is common practice with the 360s, at least the 07:39 service (1Y05). I am unsure as to why the 1Y05 is delayed as often as it normally is - I can only assume there is congestion further down the tracks with the GTR services criss-crossing on and off the Fast lines, with GTR's getting in the way of EMR Connect or EMR Intercity services.
I agree that holding back the fast Intercity service will not help, since if the Corby service is delayed, then the Lincoln-London service (or wherever the IC service is coming from, having stopped at Kettering) will be delayed further. An ideal scenario for what you describe is to move the IC service (1B16) forwards by a couple of minutes, so it passes Wellingborough at 08:11 instead of 08:13. That way, the 360 can move across to the Down Slow on departure, so it gets out of the way of 1F12/1D13.
Overall, it seems like there's a problem somewhere in that the MML is creaking under pressure with the number of services it is having to deal with, and it seems like the MML can't really take 6 EMRs per hour with the addition of GTR, unless some serious re-jigging is done. Though as mentioned before, uprating the Slows to 90mph would have allowed the Connect services to be well out of the way of the Intercity services, as the Connects would have use of the Slows to Bedford (then Fasts from Bedford to St Pancras).
Upgrading the Slows north of Bedford to 90mph probably has more merit than upgrading the OHL south of Bedford to 125mph, although both would be ideal.
The 360 Connect service is frequently delayed southbound awaiting the IC services to pass whereas it should be routed via the Slows between Kettering and Bedford. That's 2tph out of the way of the expresses.
The 360 Connect service is frequently delayed southbound awaiting the IC services to pass whereas it should be routed via the Slows between Kettering and Bedford. That's 2tph out of the way of the expresses.
Bedford North Jn is annoyingly double lead the wrong way round - One more crossover would have allowed trains from the Up slow to P3 at the same time as a train from P4 to the Down Slow was signalled. At the moment only one of those moves can be made at a time (unless OTT maps are wrong).
I went for a ride to Bedford and back on 360s. The interiors of the units are a bit worn but basically fine. Both units had a random First purple seat base amongst the grey seats.
The down train was waiting time at Bedford. The Sheffield train was seven minutes behind it. Do the 360s run at 110 mph north of Bedford? They are still restricted to 100 mph south of there.
The down train was waiting time at Bedford. The Sheffield train was seven minutes behind it. Do the 360s run at 110 mph north of Bedford? They are still restricted to 100 mph south of there.
110mph running is currently only north of Bedford and south of Wellingborough.
Trainbike46
Established Member
presumably they will go up to 110 mph where linespeeds permit south of bedford after the OHLE upgrades, right?
That’s the plan. No firm news as yet on when the wires will be upgraded, though!
spotify95
Member
Chances are it won't be any time soon, because they are currently in the process of upgrading Kettering - Market Harborough, and also Market Harborough to Leicester (presmably? there's certainly new OHLE going up north of Harborough) which is probably for the new 810 bi-modes to spend more time on electric power.
But then again if the OHLE isn't upgraded south of Bedford then the 810s will either be limited to 100, or running diesel under the wires.
And in any case I doubt the 360s or 810s will get much 110mph (or 125 for the 810s) running anyway, because the GTR's, which also use the Fasts south of Bedford, are limited to 100 in design...
Yes, OLE authorised to Wigston South Jn. Not sure on status of Wigston South to Sheffield, but contracts certainly put out to tender.
Kettering to just south of Wigston South Jn, see the MML Ekectrification thread.
Correct.
But the existing 222s routinely travel at 125mph south of Bedford, as per the timetable. The 810s will be no different, assuming the work is done. In any event there are only a few peak Thameslink services booked on the fast lines anywhere north of Harpenden. Personally I’d only upgrade the wires to 125mph north of Luton; the journey time benefit south of there is relatively small (about a minute).
Here we go again.
2 consecutive services formed of 4-car units. So much for the promise of 12-car units in the peak. This fleet really are clapped out, with the unit this morning having a door out of use.
Still at least the refurbishment is now well underway. This photo shows progress so far.
Just the stained carpets, the threadbare upholstery, the defective lighting, broken heating and vibrating air conditioning still to be tackled.
2 consecutive services formed of 4-car units. So much for the promise of 12-car units in the peak. This fleet really are clapped out, with the unit this morning having a door out of use.
Still at least the refurbishment is now well underway. This photo shows progress so far.
Just the stained carpets, the threadbare upholstery, the defective lighting, broken heating and vibrating air conditioning still to be tackled.
Attachments
- Status