EMR Class 360's

[InTheEastMids]

So that’s why no proper refurbishment is forthcoming…

Particularly if that's a typical load factor between St Pancras and the Airport... Just as the car industry sells the dream of traffic-free roads, trains are never busy in the adverts!

I think the "no stress" claim is going to be the hard bit for EMR to back up with their service, because they do not control all aspects of the service. Most people find travelling to the airport before a flight more stressful than typical, so customer concerns around overcrowding/short-forming, cancellations/punctuality, excessively complex fares, and the contingency plan at Parkway when the DART inevitably sits down are all key.

 

[QSK19]

I think the "no stress" claim is going to be the hard bit for EMR to back up with their service, because they do not control all aspects of the service. Most people find travelling to the airport before a flight more stressful than typical, so customer concerns around overcrowding/short-forming, cancellations/punctuality, excessively complex fares, and the contingency plan at Parkway when the DART inevitably sits down are all key.

Indeed - they are playing with fire by basing a promise on something that is out of their control. Not just that, but people will feel like the product has been mis-sold - based on the advert, airport users will be expecting a comfortable, spacious journey; but the reality is that they’re mixed in with “domestic” commuters and overcrowding is a real possibility. Airport users then go away saying “I won’t use the Luton Airport Express again - it’s overpriced and overcrowded”. Reputation then spreads.

It’s a big risk; but we’ll see how it pans* out!

* No pun intended in view of it being an electric service! I’ll get my coat and go…

 

[43066]

Make of this cringey video what you will.

Very cringey indeed.

You can see what they’re trying to do, but any branding with the word “Luton” in it is only ever going to make people shudder, and is damned from the start!

 

[zwk500]

Very cringey indeed.

You can see what they’re trying to do, but any branding with the word “Luton” in it is only ever going to make people shudder, and is damned from the start!

I don't think it's especially worse than the next advert. It looks like it was shot on a set rather than a moving train though, and surely if you're advertising a connection to Luton the first thing you'd emphasise is how cheap it is, not the journey time. I can imagine there's a reason they don't say 'tickets from £x' in the advert though....

 

[43066]

I don't think it's especially worse than the next advert. It looks like it was shot on a set rather than a moving train though, and surely if you're advertising a connection to Luton the first thing you'd emphasise is how cheap it is, not the journey time. I can imagine there's a reason they don't say 'tickets from £x' in the advert though....

I just have an aversion to the name Luton .

Presumably they would have shot it in a real train parked up somewhere, and then superimposed the view through the windows later?

Having watched it again she actually does mention “from £10” in the first few seconds, but agreed it wasn’t really emphasised enough - I didn’t register it the first time either! The journey time from St Pancras to Luton Airport Parkway is just over 20 mins so the “32 mins to the terminal” presumably includes the DART. That is pretty good, to be fair. More like Heathrow Express than Gatwick Express timings.

 

[Verulamius]

I just have an aversion to the name Luton .

Does the infamous 1970s Campari commercial impact your views?

 

[zwk500]

I just have an aversion to the name Luton .

Fair enough, but then EMR can't really brand it the 'Dunstable Airport deluxe'

Presumably they would have shot it in a real train parked up somewhere, and then superimposed the view through the windows later?

Yes, that's most likely.

Having watched it again she actually does mention “from £10” in the first few seconds, but agreed it wasn’t really emphasised enough - I didn’t register it the first time either!

Yeah, normally I'd expect a low headline price to be on the final graphic.

The journey time from St Pancras to Luton Airport Parkway is just over 20 mins so the “32 mins to the terminal” presumably includes the DART. That is pretty good, to be fair. More like Heathrow Express than Gatwick Express timings.

Not too shabby, especially as that means it's less than 40 mins from City Thameslink.

 

[Mike395]

Bumping this - how, almost exactly 2 years into their introduction, are we still having peak services formed of 4 cars (apparently due to door issues according to the train manager) when the original (even pandemic-accounting) plan would have seen these with 12 cars by now? The 1847 is uncomfortably full tonight due to only being 4 cars…

 

[Spartacus]

Bumping this - how, almost exactly 2 years into their introduction, are we still having peak services formed of 4 cars (apparently due to door issues according to the train manager) when the original (even pandemic-accounting) plan would have seen these with 12 cars by now? The 1847 is uncomfortably full tonight due to only being 4 cars…

That particular one was caused by damage to 360106 due to an earlier bird strike.

 

[43066]

Bumping this - how, almost exactly 2 years into their introduction, are we still having peak services formed of 4 cars (apparently due to door issues according to the train manager) when the original (even pandemic-accounting) plan would have seen these with 12 cars by now? The 1847 is uncomfortably full tonight due to only being 4 cars…

4s are thankfully a lot rarer than they were, but can still happen occasionally, as here, where an 8 car set has had to be split due to a fault. They generally try to strengthen them back to 8, depending on stock availability.

That particular one was caused by damage to 360106 due to an earlier bird strike.

Is there any other class of train in the UK that suffers quite so many broken windscreens due to bird strikes?!

 

[Maddog83]

The DFT has agreed to carry out the full refurbishment of all units to the full spec of 2+2 and info screens like the 350 1/3/4s. BUT they will have to be retained till 2037 or 39. Watch this space.

 

[LowLevel]

The DFT has agreed to carry out the full refurbishment of all units to the full spec of 2+2 and info screens like the 350 1/3/4s. BUT they will have to be retained till 2037 or 39. Watch this space.

Does that mean they'll also fund a proper TMD so they don't have to be dragged around by a 60 year old diesel?

 

[sjoh]

Does that mean they'll also fund a proper TMD so they don't have to be dragged around by a 60 year old diesel?

I suppose you want caviar and champagne too?!

 

[43066]

Does that mean they'll also fund a proper TMD so they don't have to be dragged around by a 60 year old diesel?

Don’t knock it! They look a lot more like proper trains when they’re behind City of Truro…

(Video shows 360114 being hauled through Winchester by 47749).

 

[Brubulus]

Does that mean they'll also fund a proper TMD so they don't have to be dragged around by a 60 year old diesel?

Won't they just improve the facilities at Cauldwell?
As that already does light maintainance.

 

[spotify95]

The DFT has agreed to carry out the full refurbishment of all units to the full spec of 2+2 and info screens like the 350 1/3/4s. BUT they will have to be retained till 2037 or 39. Watch this space.

To be honest I can see 2039 as a viable target for a train lifespan - if they were introduced in the early 2000s then these trains will be less than 40 years old at the end of their service life. That means that, at EOL, the 360's will be younger than the HST's when they were withdrawn from the MML.

Plus, a decent refurbishment to the 360s will them make them into a nice train, which will make MML customers want to use them - if you can get Kettering customers onto the 360s (instead of the 222s or 810s) then it frees up capacity on the IC services for customers futher north going into/out of London.

Does that mean they'll also fund a proper TMD so they don't have to be dragged around by a 60 year old diesel?

That basically means, isn't it time for the Class 37's to be sent one way to Newport Sims Metals, or shoved onto heritage lines, rather than continuing to be used on mainline duties?

Don’t knock it! They look a lot more like proper trains when they’re behind City of Truro…

(Video shows 360114 being hauled through Winchester by 47749).

I saw a 47 going through Kettering recently, and the amount of smoke/fumes it let off as the driver opened up the throttle... We really need more efficient, cleaner and greener locomotives!

 

[Ayman Ilham]

The DFT has agreed to carry out the full refurbishment of all units to the full spec of 2+2 and info screens like the 350 1/3/4s. BUT they will have to be retained till 2037 or 39. Watch this space.

The DfT actually said something logical for once? WHAT SORCERY IS THIS!?!?!

 

[43096]

I saw a 47 going through Kettering recently, and the amount of smoke/fumes it let off as the driver opened up the throttle... We really need more efficient, cleaner and greener locomotives!

RailAdventure will do the move if you like, using 21st century diesel engines.

 

[QSK19]

The DFT has agreed to carry out the full refurbishment of all units to the full spec of 2+2 and info screens like the 350 1/3/4s. BUT they will have to be retained till 2037 or 39. Watch this space.

I am pleasantly surprised that a full refurbishment has been sanctioned. Given that the Connect service is popular regardless of the trains and condition of them (technical impossibilities aside, they could have run knackered 321s and people would still use them), surely there is not enough financial gain from the outlay on a more significant refurbishment if it won’t result in much higher revenue?

That doesn’t mean that I don’t want a full refurbishment - I have been one of the most vocal advocates for what was promised in the franchise agreement; however, given the financial constraints nowadays, I’m surprised that something more than a light refurbishment has been deemed value for money.

Not surprised by the timeframe given that 2037-39 would make them roughly 35 years old; but would have thought that another refurbishment would be needed between now and then!

The DfT actually said something logical for once? WHAT SORCERY IS THIS!?!?!

Haha, makes a change, doesn’t it! The DfT actually giving something decent to the East Midlands TOC for once - never thought I’d see the day . Got to see it to believe it, though!

 

[43066]

I am pleasantly surprised that a full refurbishment has been sanctioned.

I’ll believe it when I see it.

 

[RailWonderer]

That's a spot of good news that many here will rejoice about, or say they are simply doing what they should have done two years ago. Still I can't wait to travel on them once again when the refurbs start to enter service. I assume that with 15 years left of service life (they entered service in 2003) the Dft consider the programme viable (they did when they authorised the minimal refurbs on the GWR turbo fleet).

 

[Mzzzs]

Great news but what about the 170s?

 

[zwk500]

The DfT actually said something logical for once? WHAT SORCERY IS THIS!?!?!

Do some junior civil servants live along the MML?

 

[QSK19]

I’ll believe it when I see it.

Yep indeed. As reflected in the last part of my post that you replied to, there have been so many let downs along the way that I’ll only believe it once it happens (or if we see an actual signed contract which cannot be reneged on - though I doubt that would be posted on RF!).

Do some junior civil servants live along the MML?

Maybe it’s because they’ve got return to the office after 3 years of WFH, so trains suddenly are of the utmost importance to them

 

[Wolfie]

Maybe it’s because they’ve got return to the office after 3 years of WFH, so trains suddenly are of the utmost importance to them

Don't believe what politicians say! Given that a load of office space was released (by those very same politicians) during lockdown (the Department l work for now has enough desk space for about 50% of staff to be in at any one time) that really isn't going to happen.

 

[QSK19]

Don't believe what politicians say! Given that a load of office space was released (by those very same politicians) during lockdown (the Department l work for now has enough desk space for about 50% of staff to be in at any one time) that really isn't going to happen.

Yes, I am indeed aware that a lot of office space was released (a very good friend of mine works in a Department too) and quite simply WFH is now the norm (in my HR life, some roles that we have to recruit for simply aren’t attractive unless the work pattern is at least hybrid working). You’re also right in saying not to believe what politicians say - I always say that general elections are to vote for who the person believes is the best of a bad bunch.

I made my comment both in light humour and pleasure that if a full refurbishment is actually happening, it’ll be a very positive development for the MML and will fulfil the great potential that the 360s have - they’re a very solid train but have desperately needed some TLC, both inside and out, since their life at GA.

 

[Wolfie]

Yes, I am indeed aware that a lot of office space was released (a very good friend of mine works in a Department too) and quite simply WFH is now the norm (in my HR life, some roles that we have to recruit for simply aren’t attractive unless the work pattern is at least hybrid working). You’re also right in saying not to believe what politicians say - I always say that general elections are to vote for who the person believes is the best of a bad bunch.

I made my comment both in light humour and pleasure that if a full refurbishment is actually happening, it’ll be a very positive development for the MML and will fulfil the great potential that the 360s have - they’re a very solid train but have desperately needed some TLC, both inside and out, since their life at GA.

I knew that you weren't overly serious. I have regularly used the 350s (even the much maligned 350/2s are much better looked after than the 360s have been) and to a lesser extent the 450s. They are good solid trains as, with the TLC you describe, should be the 360s which are basically the same trains.

 

[supervc-10]

Definitely much needed good news. The basic Desiro trains are very solid, and giving them a proper re-fit and TLC will keep them running for many years. A refurbishment further down the line in 10-15 years only needs be a deep clean, repaint, and change of seat covers, if done right the first time round. Of course, doing it right first time is easier said than done!

 

[Maddog83]

In regards to Cauldwell, don't think things have progressed any further with GTR handing fully over to EMR as space is still a premium. But lifting kit may be coming back to the shed. So bogies off ? a possibility. They will have crane fitted soon to do HVACs etc. So all a step in the right direction. In regards to reliability it has massively improved. Yes there are still short forms but this is down to operational short comings minor out of control faults (screen damage and pan carbon damage)

 

[D_MTrains]

if you can get Kettering customers onto the 360s (instead of the 222s or 810s) then it frees up capacity on the IC services for customers futher north going into/out of London.

Great idea in theory... But it's far too tempting to take the 45 minute train than the 65 minute train

It's clear that EMR wants us to use the Connect service when going into London as that's what they're advertising around here, but the savings in time are too good to ignore.