EMR mass cancellations on Liverpool-Norwich, 19/04/25

[Warrior2852]

EMR has at apparent short notice last night cancelled all but 4 of the Liverpool to Norwich trains west of Nottingham today (plus 1 Liverpool to Nottingham still running).

Stockport is closed due to engineering works, but the EMR trains were all scheduled to run in the replacement timetable, going via New Mills Central straight from Piccadilly to Sheffield. But the vast majority of them have been cancelled at short notice last night, apparently due to driver availability issues.

It's therefore created a timetable today where there is an unscheduled 7-hour gap now between Norwich trains coming out of Liverpool, which I imagine will be causing a few issues.

 

[stuartl]

Seems to be two problems. Signalling problems between Peterborough and Ely, and shortage of drivers. Latter presumably due to end of rest day working agreement.

 

[Thomas6187]

I wonder if there is a lack of Drivers who sign the route. There been route refresh paths in the timetable since December, and I believe they haven't been used once yet

 

[Andy Pacer]

I wonder if there is a lack of Drivers who sign the route. There been route refresh paths in the timetable since December, and I believe they haven't been used once yet

Would seem odd if that's the case.

 

[Tram203]

Would seem odd if that's the case.

Indeed. I'm fairly sure there are some late night / early morning ECS workings that are booked daily to use that route, possibly even the late evening Manchester to Nottingham passenger service.

Either way, completely unacceptable and absolutely disgraceful from EMR. Shame on them.

 

[6Gman]

Indeed. I'm fairly sure there are some late night / early morning ECS workings that are booked daily to use that route, possibly even the late evening Manchester to Nottingham passenger service.

Either way, completely unacceptable and absolutely disgraceful from EMR. Shame on them.

If there's no driver available, there's no driver available.

There's only so much contingency cover you can carry.

 

[The Planner]

I wonder if there is a lack of Drivers who sign the route. There been route refresh paths in the timetable since December, and I believe they haven't been used once yet

EMR are struggling with diversion resource.

 

[Tram203]

If there's no driver available, there's no driver available.

There's only so much contingency cover you can carry.

Agreed, however, I stand by my post, as I'm sure would the thousands of fare paying customers who EMR have royally shafted today.

 

[Dogbox]

Blame the DFT, they won't sign off on the rdw agreement. I thought these problems were a thing of the past once Labour came into power.

 

[bahnause]

Blame the DFT, they won't sign off on the rdw agreement. I thought these problems were a thing of the past once Labour came into power.

I don't know exactly how it works financially. However, I strongly assume that the TOCs do not receive random amounts of money from the DfT, but that these are set out in a budget negotiated by both partners. And if a TOC now needs more than is budgeted, they should have solid reasons why this is the case. After all, it is not helpful if additional funds are constantly needed.

 

[Tram203]

Blame the DFT, they won't sign off on the rdw agreement. I thought these problems were a thing of the past once Labour came into power.

Irrespective of where the fundamental root cause and blame lies, it is EMR and EMR only who seemingly failed to advertise before yesterday evening that there would be mass disruption on the route in question today.

If the post above regarding difficulties resourcing drivers to drive the diversionary route around Stockport is correct, it's very hard to believe that this was only all of a sudden realised yesterday evening.

To leave it 12 hours or less in some cases between trains being scheduled to run and advertising "sorry we can't run these trains due to reasons we have at least strongly suspected if not absolutely known about for days if not weeks" is in itself shameful and disgraceful.

 

[Andy Pacer]

Do we assume this problem is made worse because of the Bank Holiday weekend (ie less people willing to work)?

 

[Peterthegreat]

If they are having problems with crew route knowledge running via Marple then why aren't they running to Sheffield?

 

[Jan Mayen]

Please could the DfT/TOCs just publish a timetable that doesn't use RDW?

 

[piers1234]

Please could the DfT/TOCs just publish a timetable that doesn't use RDW?

They can't because they don't employ enough drivers to cover the timetable.

They need RDW drivers.

 

[Andy Pacer]

If they are having problems with crew route knowledge running via Marple then why aren't they running to Sheffield?

I think they are aren't they?

 

[Peterthegreat]

I think they are aren't they?

No. Only the handful of trains running through to/from Liverpool.

 

[Warrior2852]

it is EMR and EMR only who seemingly failed to advertise before yesterday evening that there would be mass disruption on the route in question today.

And I had a look at their website when finding out about this, they had a whole replacement timetable listed on there stating the full amended service (basically everything minus Stockport), so they had been specifically advertising a level of disruption but then not that that already disrupted timetable had been further disrupted.

At least they were able to put on a 6 coach of two 170s to make one of the few existing services less crowded.

If they are having problems with crew route knowledge running via Marple then why aren't they running to Sheffield?

If you're talking about services from Norwich, Nottingham is the "natural" turning point for services cut short on that route as it's where the units split, where the depot is, and where most part-route services start and terminate in the normal timetable. They're doing Nottingham-Norwich OK, it's west of that things fall apart.

 

[tram21]

It just seems odd that its basically only this route affected by cancellations, and its one of the most important routes. Surely you'd be better cancelling, say, every other Robin Hood line services to divert the crew onto the Liverpool/Norwich line (they all sign everything at Nottingham so it is more or less that simple)

 

[Peterthegreat]

And I had a look at their website when finding out about this, they had a whole replacement timetable listed on there stating the full amended service (basically everything minus Stockport), so they had been specifically advertising a level of disruption but then not that that already disrupted timetable had been further disrupted.

At least they were able to put on a 6 coach of two 170s to make one of the few existing services less crowded.



If you're talking about services from Norwich, Nottingham is the "natural" turning point for services cut short on that route as it's where the units split, where the depot is, and where most part-route services start and terminate in the normal timetable. They're doing Nottingham-Norwich OK, it's west of that things fall apart.

I know very well that is the case. However it is because it is easier for the operator - the passenger comes last.

 

[Starmill]

Blame the DFT, they won't sign off on the rdw agreement. I thought these problems were a thing of the past once Labour came into power.

As number of things have got worse since then.

 

[Warrior2852]

It just seems odd that its basically only this route affected by cancellations, and its one of the most important routes. Surely you'd be better cancelling, say, every other Robin Hood line services to divert the crew onto the Liverpool/Norwich line (they all sign everything at Nottingham so it is more or less that simple)

Wouldn't work though if the problem was indeed a lack of signed knowledge on the diversion via New Mills Central though.

 

[Andyh82]

I bet it was carnage on the Leeds to Nottingham service as Northern only use 2 car units on this route

The EMR service is usually 4 or 6

 

[tram21]

Wouldn't work though if the problem was indeed a lack of signed knowledge on the diversion via New Mills Central though.

I think this might actually be the case. Tomorrow its mostly only services past Nottingham towards Manchester which are cancelled, with limited cancellations on other routes.

If so, what an absolute **** up by EMR

 

[LowLevel]

The problem is a lack of Romiley route knowledge. The trains weren't cancelled until the day before so you can't just run to Sheffield as there is no driver allocated to run the train at all as they don't hold the route knowledge for the diagram so can't be allocated to it as the original turns had been cancelled to accomodate the diversion. Many spare guards and no spare drivers.

 

[Andy Pacer]

No. Only the handful of trains running through to/from Liverpool.

Aah sorry I misunderstood the point you were making, presumably you were questioning why curtailing at Nottingham and not continuing to Sheffield?

 

[Rail Ranger]

It's not as if the Stockport blockade hadn't been planned for quite a while.....I know that TPE did route learning on the diversion route.

 

[Warrior2852]

I bet it was carnage on the Leeds to Nottingham service as Northern only use 2 car units on this route

The EMR service is usually 4 or 6

Northern does sometimes make it a 4 car on that route, particularly if it's busy. I have been pleasantly surprised before by expecting 2 coaches and 4 turning up.

 

[transportphoto]

they all sign everything at Nottingham so it is more or less that simple

My understanding is that this isn’t wholly accurate for drivers. Drivers knowledge is link based. Guards do sign pretty much everything.

 

[Sleepy]

EMR from Norwich Thursday morning had multiple cancellations too.