EMR mass cancellations on Liverpool-Norwich, 19/04/25

[LowLevel]

My understanding is that this isn’t wholly accurate for drivers. Drivers knowledge is link based. Guards do sign pretty much everything.

Correct, drivers have link based route knowledge though there is a spare link that progressively come to sign everywhere though that does take years.

Diversionary route knowledge is very patchy amongst drivers and almost universal amongst guards.

 

[43096]

Correct, drivers have link based route knowledge though there is a spare link that progressively come to sign everywhere though that does take years.

Diversionary route knowledge is very patchy amongst drivers and almost universal amongst guards.

I thought some of the early morning/late evening workings (incl the ECS) on the Liverpool route were booked via diversionary routes specifically to maintain competence?

 

[LowLevel]

I thought some of the early morning/late evening workings (incl the ECS) on the Liverpool route were booked via diversionary routes specifically to maintain competence?

They are - there is a not particularly large pool of drivers on them regularly, often from the spare link.

Getting new drivers up to speed with diversions has been patchy back to Stagecoach days. The logistics of learning and then passing them as competent on the route are tricky though some effort has been made of late. COVID period in particular was not good for "non essential" route learning.

Conversely guards have to learn all diversions certainly at Nottingham before they're allowed to pass as competent.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

They are - there is a not particularly large pool of drivers on them regularly, often from the spare link.

Getting new drivers up to speed with diversions has been patchy back to Stagecoach days. The logistics of learning and then passing them as competent on the route are tricky though some effort has been made of late. COVID period in particular was not good for "non essential" route learning.

Conversely guards have to learn all diversions certainly at Nottingham before they're allowed to pass as competent.

Given that situation how on earth do EMR get to the day before and realise majority of train crew don't have the route knowledge and have to can off over half the service. Mr Booths promoting how good private companies are running train service has rather fallen flat here and no sign of any apologies from EMR.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Clearly EMR will have to increase their drivers' route knowledge before the main Stockport blockade to replace the Greek Street bridge (2nd to 22nd August).

 

[SirAlf]

Today’s EMR fun and games. Their web site says “Liverpool – Nottingham/Norwich Minor disruption”

They then proceed to list 14 changes to services, though admittedly 5 of then relate to additional stops “because a train was cancelled” (I'm guessing one of theirs but they don't say so). So 9 trains cancelled for at least part of the journey. If they class that as minor disruption I hate to think what they class as major

 

[Sleepy]

Given that situation how on earth do EMR get to the day before and realise majority of train crew don't have the route knowledge and have to can off over half the service. Mr Booths promoting how good private companies are running train service has rather fallen flat here and no sign of any apologies from EMR.

The lack of ASLEF rest day working is probably a convenient excuse to pass on all EMR cancellations blame in direction of drivers & or the DfT ?

 

[gingerheid]

EMR from Norwich Thursday morning had multiple cancellations too.

All week has been pretty grim, really.

 

[tram21]

Clearly EMR will have to increase their drivers' route knowledge before the main Stockport blockade to replace the Greek Street bridge (2nd to 22nd August).

Looking on RTT they aren't actually going that way at all during the block, it's showing until the 15th and they are only running Sheffield to Norwich, with replacement buses from Chesterfield to Manchester Piccadilly via Stockport. Hopefully learnt their lesson from this, but that's not great!...

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The lack of ASLEF rest day working is probably a convenient excuse to pass on all EMR cancellations blame in direction of drivers & or the DfT ?

Irrespective of the underlying reasons this was a known fact so they should have responded accordingly however unpalatable the impact was on the service they could have published it beforehand and potentially strengthened what was left running so at least passengers knew what the options were.

 

[duffield]

Today’s EMR fun and games. Their web site says “Liverpool – Nottingham/Norwich Minor disruption”

They then proceed to list 14 changes to services, though admittedly 5 of then relate to additional stops “because a train was cancelled” (I'm guessing one of theirs but they don't say so). So 9 trains cancelled for at least part of the journey. If they class that as minor disruption I hate to think what they class as major

I regularly look at the service disruptions information on the EMR website and their categorisation of "major" and "minor" disruption is frequently laughably inappropriate.

 

[High Dyke]

Clearly EMR will have to increase their drivers' route knowledge before the main Stockport blockade to replace the Greek Street bridge (2nd to 22nd August).

Don't hold yer breath there... Management have made decisions to allow route knowledge to lapse. For example, Lincoln traincrew no longer sign for the Skegness line. This precludes diversion of Lincoln - Nottingham services via Sleaford. So, these things aren't as cut and dried as some may think.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Don't hold yer breath there... Management have made decisions to allow route knowledge to lapse. For example, Lincoln traincrew no longer sign for the Skegness line. This precludes diversion of Lincoln - Nottingham services via Sleaford. So, these things aren't as cut and dried as some may think.

Lack of diversionary route knowledge is a poor decision but far worse is to then not understand the impact its going to have on the planned service until the day before. Thats just unacceptable and somebody needs to be held to account for it.

 

[Coalpits]

It just seems odd that its basically only this route affected by cancellations, and its one of the most important routes. Surely you'd be better cancelling, say, every other Robin Hood line services to divert the crew onto the Liverpool/Norwich line (they all sign everything at Nottingham so it is more or less that simple)

Well actually,route knowledge is very much link-based,only spare-link drivers would be required to "sign everywhere", and many of them don't, for a number of reasons.

 

[Mogz]

Like Cross-Country, this is another very long distance route that should have excellent stock and service like comparable length services on the continent.

As it is, it’s a Cinderella service and it’s a wonder the service still exists at all, sadly.

 

[Sleepy]

Like Cross-Country, this is another very long distance route that should have excellent stock and service like comparable length services on the continent.

As it is, it’s a Cinderella service and it’s a wonder the service still exists at all, sadly.

Very much a Cinderella service, if it had decent stock and faster journey times demand would be higher.

 

[dosxuk]

Very much a Cinderella service, if it had decent stock and faster journey times demand would be higher.

Doesn't even really need that - it just needs consistency and reliability. Sadly lacking since the EMT days. After that you're in to needing longer trains, which seems to be impossible because of the number of platforms served that are apparently limited to 4 cars.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Doesn't even really need that - it just needs consistency and reliability. Sadly lacking since the EMT days. After that you're in to needing longer trains, which seems to be impossible because of the number of platforms served that are apparently limited to 4 cars.

They should move the 5 car 222's onto it with SDO.

 

[bunnahabhain]

Doesn't even really need that - it just needs consistency and reliability. Sadly lacking since the EMT days. After that you're in to needing longer trains, which seems to be impossible because of the number of platforms served that are apparently limited to 4 cars.

There aren't that many, and in December there will be more 5 car services operating as a 2+3 Class 170 combination, in addition to the current 3+3 Class 170 services.

A Class 222 would provide a reduction in the number of available seats over a 4 car Class 158.

 

[MCR247]

They should move the 5 car 222's onto it with SDO.

So make the overcrowding worse?

 

[Rail Ranger]

Aren't the 222s probably going to Scotland?

 

[pokemonsuper9]

I bet it was carnage on the Leeds to Nottingham service as Northern only use 2 car units on this route

The two I used (just Sheffield - Dronfield then to Barnsley) were quite busy, but I managed to get a seat. The door area was full of standees, to the point I was worried about being able to get on at all (then ending up in a seat that noone had chosen to take).

I had just assumed it was like this until seeing the thread (since I saw a Liverpool - Norwich running without issue).

 

[tram21]

I had just assumed it was like this until seeing the thread (since I saw a Liverpool - Norwich running without issue).

It is almost always like that.

 

[dosxuk]

They should move the 5 car 222's onto it with SDO.

As has been covered many times on these pages, the 222's are unsuitable for the Norwich - Liverpool route. Partly because of their lower capacity than the existing stock, but mainly because they can't keep to time.

 

[chubs]

Doesn't even really need that - it just needs consistency and reliability. Sadly lacking since the EMT days. After that you're in to needing longer trains, which seems to be impossible because of the number of platforms served that are apparently limited to 4 cars.

I don't want this to drift off into the fantasy sub forum (sorry mods) but 4 car Flirts.

They revolutionised GA travel. This line has so much potential, I used to sue it a lot when younger and know many people who do now preferring it to going via London but sometimes have to do the latter due to extortionate fares.

 

[transportphoto]

We’re becoming speculative so it’s probably best to try to stick to topic. There is a speculative discussion thread about EMR’s fleet replacement here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...us-by-2033-how-could-this-be-achieved.285102/.

It’s worth remembering that four car Flirts would be a step down in seating capacity compared to a four car 158.

 

[matrix24]

Blame the DFT, they won't sign off on the rdw agreement. I thought these problems were a thing of the past once Labour came into power.

Appears you thought wrong!!

 

[transportphoto]

Appears you thought wrong!!

Pray tell?

 

[Dogbox]

Appears you thought wrong!!

Clearly!

 

[WildNorthlands]

We were on the Trans-Pennine from Manchester to Sheffield that day. Absolutely heaving 6-car train and ran very slowly between M/C and New Mills. I did see one EMR train come past the opposite direction.

Northern does sometimes make it a 4 car on that route, particularly if it's busy. I have been pleasantly surprised before by expecting 2 coaches and 4 turning up.

It's mostly in the evening esp. Sundays when they don't have to share platform space at Leeds with the stopping trains.