End of the line for return rail tickets

[DDB]

If the rumours are true that there will be a government reshuffle today it might mean there won't be a government announcement on ticketing today after all.

 

[GoneSouth]

If the rumours are true that there will be a government reshuffle today it might mean there won't be a government announcement on ticketing today after all.

Definitely going ahead this evening according to all the radio and TV news this morning,

 

[mike57]

"100% of return for 2+ hours" one would quietly disappear, I'm not bothered by that as I have very, very rarely had such a claim.

Most really long delays like that are caused by things outwith the railway's control anyway, e.g. suicides or extremely severe weather, and I'm happy to let that go because they ruin the driver's day far more than mine, and are as much a nightmare for TOC control as for my journey.

Unfortunately I have made a few 2 hour plus claims against TPE, and these were because of the well documented internal TPE problems resulting in consecutive cancellations to/from Scarborough. I would be happy with money back and a free ticket in this situation. I usually take the free ticket offer for shorter delays that Northern offer as an option in place of money anyway, we then use them for some leisure outings.

Even if you buy a ticket through a website or app, if you are making a return journey, you want to buy the ticket in one transaction rather than two.

Most TOC websites allow you to add your journey to your 'basket' and then pay in one transaction, and people who use online services are familiar with the concept. Multiple transactions can trigger banking fraud detection so needs to be avoided.

The recent BBC article makes it clear that a similar single is half the previously advertised return ticket price: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64548794

Transport Secretary Mark Harper will confirm on Tuesday that publicly-owned LNER will extend its trial of selling single tickets only on its routes.
Under the trial, a single is always half the cost of a return. Currently, many singles are £1 less than a return.
The government said such reforms could provide "better value" for passengers.
It has not been revealed if there are plans to roll out the trial at LNER to the country's other train operators.

However I dont trust the government not to try and sneak some increases in. Brings to mind the old gag, Question: "How do you know when a politician is lying?" Answer "Whenever their mouth is moving"

 

[yorkie]

Unfortunately I have made a few 2 hour plus claims against TPE, and these were because of the well documented internal TPE problems resulting in consecutive cancellations to/from Scarborough. I would be happy with money back and a free ticket in this situation. I usually take the free ticket offer for shorter delays that Northern offer as an option in place of money anyway, we then use them for some leisure outings.


Most TOC websites allow you to add your journey to your 'basket' and then pay in one transaction, and people who use online services are familiar with the concept. Multiple transactions can trigger banking fraud detection so needs to be avoided.

The recent BBC article makes it clear that a similar single is half the previously advertised return ticket price: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64548794

However I dont trust the government not to try and sneak some increases in. Brings to mind the old gag, Question: "How do you know when a politician is lying?" Answer "Whenever their mouth is moving"

The article says the trial is being extended. The trial removed ticket types, this causing an increase in the fare paid for passengers travelling at times which was valid for off peak but not super off peak. The trial, which resulted in less choice for customers, was deemed successful.

This is worrying.

 

[yorksrob]

Governments seek to win votes, make money, save money or distribute money.

Removing singles wont win votes, but it may do all the other three.
But if its set up now, and comes live after the GE, it wont be their votes that its not winning.

If it's due to come live after the next election, it can be cancelled (assuming the changes prove to be unpopular).

 

[AlterEgo]

The trial, which resulted in less choice for customers, was deemed successful.

This is worrying.

I have said this for years, and I know this is a deeply unpopular take on here:

...but the revealed preferences of railway customers (note that this is different to what people say in vox pops or even in surveys!) is that they prefer, in fact, less choice and a simpler and easier to understand fare structure.

Normies find stuff like Off Peak and Super Off Peak confusing. In another thread a poster didn't know what an operator restriction was when he got into trouble with Lumo - he seemed like an intelligent and eloquent person, but didn't make the connection that his LNER ticket wasn't valid on Lumo when told he had to follow the operator restriction.

I am on a train right now, from Glasgow to London via Edinburgh. Literally right now the guard is giving a 2-minute spiel about the tickets which are not valid on the train. Lumo - definitely not. TPE - yes, but only if your train got cancelled. Advance tickets - a whole minute spiel about how to find the time and restriction.

It's been 20 years of trying to educate customers and most people don't want to know.

 

[milgram]

Reading the BBC article the change seems to be just an extension to the LNER trial, and not the actual shake up promised by the Telegraph

 

[duncanp]

I hope this reform to ticketing doesn't mean the end of through tickets between any two stations on the National Rail network.

eg. currently you can buy a single from Corrour to Sugar Loaf or Bat & Ball to Bowling, but this is not the case in countries such as France, where an equivalent journey would require three separate tickets. (TER to nearest major city, TGV to nearest station to your destination, TER to your destination)

I can't help feeling that some long distance TOCs such as LNER would rather have the French situation, so that they can have all the revenue on a London to Edinburgh journey, rather than share it with Southern, London Underground and Scotrail on a ticket from Cheam to Kirkcaldy.

Even now, TOCs like Avanti and LNER push their own advance tickets on the App and Website, by setting Advance tickets as the default option, and you have to explicitly select a flexible ticket.

My other concern about this ticketing reform is what is going to happen to refunds, and specifically the administrative fee of £10.

Currently if you buy a return, and then wish to claim a refund, the fee of £10 is levied on the ticket price for the return.

If you buy a return journey as two singles, and then decide not to travel for whatever reason, will the TOCs levy a fee of £10 for refunding the outward single ticket, and another £10 for refunding the return single ticket, making a total of £20.

 

[vinnym70]

I really hope due consideration is given to the effect this has on railcard holders with respect to the minimum fare levels.
Anyone who lives currently enjoys 1/3 off on a £20-£25 pound return will see benefits reduced to nothing if two singles need to be purchased at £10-£13.
Not 100% certain but I believe the minimum fare with a railcard is now £13? I would suspect an awful lot of journeys, especially to city centres are in this price bracket.
On that basis alone, any mention of revenue neutral changes fails.

 

[yorksrob]

I have said this for years, and I know this is a deeply unpopular take on here:

...but the revealed preferences of railway customers (note that this is different to what people say in vox pops or even in surveys!) is that they prefer, in fact, less choice and a simpler and easier to understand fare structure.

Normies find stuff like Off Peak and Super Off Peak confusing. In another thread a poster didn't know what an operator restriction was when he got into trouble with Lumo - he seemed like an intelligent and eloquent person, but didn't make the connection that his LNER ticket wasn't valid on Lumo when told he had to follow the operator restriction.

I am on a train right now, from Glasgow to London via Edinburgh. Literally right now the guard is giving a 2-minute spiel about the tickets which are not valid on the train. Lumo - definitely not. TPE - yes, but only if your train got cancelled. Advance tickets - a whole minute spiel about how to find the time and restriction.

It's been 20 years of trying to educate customers and most people don't want to know.

People only want "choice" as a way of getting the price down. The recent trend for whacking up walk on fares to push everyone onto AP is at the route of the problem.

Unfortunately in too many cases, rail offers poor value for money for passengers compared to comparable European countries.

 

[yorkie]

People may say they don't want choice but in reality man do choose cheaper fares, while others choose to pay extra for flexibility (in this case, you may pay more money for less flexibility under the trial!)

Having a huge step up from Super Off Peak to Anytime is designed to push as many people s possible onto Advances.

People may say they like the 'simplicity' of only being valid on one train, rather than have a range of trains you can get, but then if they are on the wrong train, to be charged a whole new ticket, they don't like that then. If they had an Off Peak on an Anytime it would just be the excess, not a whole new ticket.

You can see why LNER want people on advances!

 

[Haywain]

If it's due to come live after the next election, it can be cancelled (assuming the changes prove to be unpopular).

I suspect it will come live in about 4 weeks.

 

[duncanp]

I really hope due consideration is given to the effect this has on railcard holders with respect to the minimum fare levels.
Anyone who lives currently enjoys 1/3 off on a £20-£25 pound return will see benefits reduced to nothing if two singles need to be purchased at £10-£13.
Not 100% certain but I believe the minimum fare with a railcard is now £13? I would suspect an awful lot of journeys, especially to city centres are in this price bracket.
On that basis alone, any mention of revenue neutral changes fails.

I mentioned this earlier with respect to refunds.

If you are going to go to single leg pricing, and the cost of a single ticket is half the cost of a return, then the admin fee for a refund needs to drop to £5, and the minimum railcard fare needs to drop to a similar amount.

Or why not just abolish the minimum railcard fare in the name of "simplification"?

 

[trainophile]

I suppose it’s another dumming down scenario aimed to make it simpler for the people who only take a train twice a year for their holidays, and naturally the members of this forum and frequent/enthusiast travellers will find it reduces our options considerably.

It’s going to become a “finger on the button” challenge for Advance users to get a cheap ticket as soon as they are released.

 

[Bread & cheese]

Daily Telegraph article today (the following is taken from the print edition, I don't have a link):

Price of single tickets halved in rail overhaul
By Jack Simpson
The Daily Telegraph
07 Feb 2023
Government-run operator to trial new train ticketing system ahead of potential wider roll-out

THE cost of train tickets is set to be based on the level of demand in a government trial of “surge pricing”.

Rather than the traditional fixed-price ticketing system, with peak and off-peak windows, a new “airline-style” system with variable prices is set to be introduced on the government-run LNER line, ahead of a potentially wider roll-out.

The plan, which will be revealed in a speech by Mark Harper, the Transport Secretary, today, is part of a major overhaul that will also see the price of single tickets on many lines halved, and a pay-as-you go system introduced for commuters travelling in the South East.

Surge or demand pricing, also known as dynamic pricing, is used by tech giants such as Amazon and Uber to set prices on an almost minute-by-minute basis using algorithms, based on factors including demand. In times of high demand, the price “surges”, which could mean the most popular services are more expensive.

It has become particularly popular with the airline industry.

Mr Harper will unveil the plans at the annual George Bradshaw address this evening, where he will say: “The industry’s road to recovery after Covid has been tough, with reform badly needed to win back lost passenger revenue while putting customers first. Today’s announcement is the latest example of this government taking bold decisions and getting on with the job.”

The Transport Secretary will also confirm that single fare prices will be slashed on the majority of journeys as part of a major overhaul that will end the practice of single tickets costing almost as much as a return.

Currently journeys such as the one between London and Durham can see off-peak single fares cost just £1 less than a return fare. Under the reforms, one-way fares like this will be almost halved.

The Sunday Telegraph revealed this weekend that Mr Harper was planning to scrap return fares and roll-out “single-leg pricing”. In his speech today, he will guarantee that single fares will never cost more than half the cost of a return.

This will come as a relief to passenger bodies, who welcomed the introduction of single-leg pricing but told The Daily Telegraph it would only work if single fares were not made more expensive as a result.

Passengers travelling across the South East will also benefit from the roll-out of a pay-as-you-go ticketing system, which will allow people to make contactless payments across different operators.

The overhaul comes after years of campaigning by groups to try and simplify the rail ticketing landscape, which has an estimated 55million different fares across the network.

Mr Harper will also reveal more details on how Great British Railways, the new central body created to oversee the management of the network, will work alongside the private sector.

At the weekend politicians raised concerns the new GBR could throttle the role of the private sector.

Mr Harper will say: “Growing the economy is rightly one of the Prime Minister’s top five priorities, and the measures I announce today will unleash more competition, innovation and growth in an important sector of our economy.”

 

[duncanp]

It’s going to become a “finger on the button” challenge for Advance users to get a cheap ticket as soon as they are released.

There should be more consistency about when advances are released.

On Avanti at the moment, it seems like they are playing a game of "chicken" with the customers, waiting until as close as possible to the date of travel before they release a limited quantity of advance tickets.

Rather than the traditional fixed-price ticketing system, with peak and off-peak windows, a new “airline-style” system with variable prices is set to be introduced on the government-run LNER line, ahead of a potentially wider roll-out.

I can't see this being popular.

What controls will there be on the so called "airline style pricing"?

If there is no maximum fare set, it could result in people having to pay more than the current cost of an Anytime Single if they want to travel at a busy time, or have to travel at the last minute.

 

[AlterEgo]

People only want "choice" as a way of getting the price down. The recent trend for whacking up walk on fares to push everyone onto AP is at the route of the problem.

Unfortunately in too many cases, rail offers poor value for money for passengers compared to comparable European countries.

Value for money is also a big concern but passengers generally liked LNER's trial of single leg pricing even though it reduced choice and, in some cases, resulted in some passengers paying more. I tend to feel that most passengers feel more ripped off by an opaque and archaic fare structure than by the ticket price itself.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That says something rather different from what was proposed before, i.e. an Advance only system. Has the Torygraph got the wrong end of the stick? It's an incredibly messy article that doesn't quite seem to know what it's saying. It also seems to think Advances are a new thing.

 

[bakerstreet]

Value for money is also a big concern but passengers generally liked LNER's trial of single leg pricing even though it reduced choice and, in some cases, resulted in some passengers paying more. I tend to feel that most passengers feel more ripped off by an opaque and archaic fare structure than by the ticket price itself.

I can’t help feeling that the way advances are (or aren’t) made available is far more opaque than the ‘never change’ cost of a particular off peak or anytime ticket product.

 

[johnny_t]

This 'could' work for me in one particular scenario. I live near Selby, and occasionally have to go to either Heathrow or Manchester Airport for flights.

Obviously I can commit to a 'going out' time, but when you come back is always a lottery, so I either have to buy open tickets, or put several hours of hedge time into my return journey and, even then, don't stop sweating about it until I'm actually on the train.

This could work out nicely in that scenario (all depending on how the fares end up)



EDIT - And my family's other main scenario is that my son, who is at University in Birmingham, often goes to London on a Friday. In theory, he should be able to do a Birmingham - London - York - Birmingham circular more easily.

 

[yorksrob]

Daily Telegraph article today (the following is taken from the print edition, I don't have a link):

Price of single tickets halved in rail overhaul
By Jack Simpson
The Daily Telegraph
07 Feb 2023
Government-run operator to trial new train ticketing system ahead of potential wider roll-out

THE cost of train tickets is set to be based on the level of demand in a government trial of “surge pricing”.

Rather than the traditional fixed-price ticketing system, with peak and off-peak windows, a new “airline-style” system with variable prices is set to be introduced on the government-run LNER line, ahead of a potentially wider roll-out.

The plan, which will be revealed in a speech by Mark Harper, the Transport Secretary, today, is part of a major overhaul that will also see the price of single tickets on many lines halved, and a pay-as-you go system introduced for commuters travelling in the South East.

Surge or demand pricing, also known as dynamic pricing, is used by tech giants such as Amazon and Uber to set prices on an almost minute-by-minute basis using algorithms, based on factors including demand. In times of high demand, the price “surges”, which could mean the most popular services are more expensive.

It has become particularly popular with the airline industry.

Mr Harper will unveil the plans at the annual George Bradshaw address this evening, where he will say: “The industry’s road to recovery after Covid has been tough, with reform badly needed to win back lost passenger revenue while putting customers first. Today’s announcement is the latest example of this government taking bold decisions and getting on with the job.”

The Transport Secretary will also confirm that single fare prices will be slashed on the majority of journeys as part of a major overhaul that will end the practice of single tickets costing almost as much as a return.

Currently journeys such as the one between London and Durham can see off-peak single fares cost just £1 less than a return fare. Under the reforms, one-way fares like this will be almost halved.

The Sunday Telegraph revealed this weekend that Mr Harper was planning to scrap return fares and roll-out “single-leg pricing”. In his speech today, he will guarantee that single fares will never cost more than half the cost of a return.

This will come as a relief to passenger bodies, who welcomed the introduction of single-leg pricing but told The Daily Telegraph it would only work if single fares were not made more expensive as a result.

Passengers travelling across the South East will also benefit from the roll-out of a pay-as-you-go ticketing system, which will allow people to make contactless payments across different operators.

The overhaul comes after years of campaigning by groups to try and simplify the rail ticketing landscape, which has an estimated 55million different fares across the network.

Mr Harper will also reveal more details on how Great British Railways, the new central body created to oversee the management of the network, will work alongside the private sector.

At the weekend politicians raised concerns the new GBR could throttle the role of the private sector.

Mr Harper will say: “Growing the economy is rightly one of the Prime Minister’s top five priorities, and the measures I announce today will unleash more competition, innovation and growth in an important sector of our economy.”

I don't like this idea of "surge pricing". How is it "simplified" if you can't get a predictable walk on fare ?

 

[AlterEgo]

I can’t help feeling that the way advances are (or aren’t) made available is far more opaque than the ‘never change’ cost of a particular off peak or anytime ticket product.

It is, and I think non-quota Advances and a return to Value Advances like Virgin had in in early 2000s would be popular.

Eg: Now, say you have Advances for £10, 12, 15, 17, 21, 26, 32 based on quota, reduce that to:

14 Day Advance: £14. 7 Day Advance £20 3 Day Advance £30

...would be arguably more popular because of the reliability of getting those prices, even though some, or even many customers would end up paying more!

 

[Richardr]

The recent BBC article makes it clear that a similar single is half the previously advertised return ticket price: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-64548794

However I dont trust the government not to try and sneak some increases in. Brings to mind the old gag, Question: "How do you know when a politician is lying?" Answer "Whenever their mouth is moving"

With respect, that isn't what the article you quote says:

Under the trial, a single is always half the cost of a return. Currently, many singles are £1 less than a return.

A single at what ever time is half a return - and in fact returns as such will no longer exist as a cheaper option. What it doesn't say is that it will be half the previous price of the relevant return - and simplification would see a massive reduction in the number of different fares available, meaning that won't always be the case.

Until we see the detail, we don't know whether all previous return price points will remain, but simplification means some price points go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't like this idea of "surge pricing". How is it "simplified" if you can't get a predictable walk on fare ?

I think the Torygraph may have got the wrong end of the stick and are just talking about Advances.

 

[yorksrob]

I can’t help feeling that the way advances are (or aren’t) made available is far more opaque than the ‘never change’ cost of a particular off peak or anytime ticket product.

Indeed. It will be a price gougers charter.

"ooh, there's football match on. Lets whack all the fares up by fifty percent."

 

[Richardr]

Is "surge pricing" the new name for peak and off-peak?

 

[yorksrob]

I think the Torygraph may have got the wrong end of the stick and are just talking about Advances.

Lets hope so.

 

[AlterEgo]

I think the Torygraph may have got the wrong end of the stick and are just talking about Advances.

It depends whether they mean advance-on-the-day or not, really. Surge pricing is real-time and usually linked with imminent departure.

 

[yorksrob]

Value for money is also a big concern but passengers generally liked LNER's trial of single leg pricing even though it reduced choice and, in some cases, resulted in some passengers paying more. I tend to feel that most passengers feel more ripped off by an opaque and archaic fare structure than by the ticket price itself.

I think that's true......to an extent.

I can't help thinking that fares need to be bench marked against other European countries, instead of persisting with our system.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is "surge pricing" the new name for peak and off-peak?

I think it's talking about Advances.

It depends whether they mean advance-on-the-day or not, really. Surge pricing is real-time and usually linked with imminent departure.

Yes, true. I wonder if that's being mulled over for contactless and local services? It isn't applicable to IC where most journeys are pre-planned.

I think someone has completely got the wrong end of the stick, not unusual for the Torygraph.

I think that's true......to an extent.

I can't help thinking that fares need to be bench marked against other European countries, instead of persisting with our system.

The proposed system (if they are actually adopting the Edinburgh trial) is almost identical to what Germany is doing.