Period and day off peak returns are widely available for many shorter journeys to tourist destinations in the south east (to places such as Oxford, not just the coastal resorts). At the moment visitors staying for more then one day pay a premium for the off peak period returns. If the mooted changes "reward" this comparatively small group at the expense of the much larger numbers of day trippers, who pick and choose when they travel in line with the weather forecast, then local tourist boards and businesses may not be too chuffed.
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End of the line for return rail tickets
- Thread starter CeeJ
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Period and day off peak returns are widely available for many shorter journeys to tourist destinations in the south east (to places such as Oxford, not just the coastal resorts). At the moment visitors staying for more then one day pay a premium for the off peak period returns. If the mooted changes "reward" this comparatively small group at the expense of the much larger numbers of day trippers, who pick and choose when they travel in line with the weather forecast, then local tourist boards and businesses may not be too chuffed.
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Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Because they are a very small group you'd not need much of an uplift on the singles to mean you've done the change on a revenue neutral basis, though.
If for instance your period return is £15 and your day return £10 (in the SE it's usually that sort of proportion), and 10% of passengers use the period return it can be worked out thus:
For 10 passengers, one uses a period return and nine use day returns, your revenue is:
15 + (9 * 10) = £105
So if you want to get the same revenue from those same people you're talking about a single fare of £5.25, or a return (two singles) of £10.50. That increase just isn't going to put anyone off.
(Obviously the real formula is more complex than that, but it should give an idea of what sums are involved - plus I suspect for MKC to London, for instance, the number using period returns are even lower than 10% - plus add in that removing period returns will reduce fraud from people using them as "season tickets"...)
NARobertson
Member
I just had a look at the DB site to see what the Germans offer. Taking a journey from Cologne to Berlin I found there are offerred a choice of four options. There are two cheaper offers which are limited to specific trains. Prices vary between trains taken but in the same ball park. And, furthermore, you have a choice between a lowest price version where you have lost your money if you do not travel or a somewhat dearer option where you can recoup most of the ticket cost if for any reason you do not travel. There are also two much more expensive tickets available offering full flexibility as to which day and train you travel on. Again there are two possibilities, with and without the possibility of recovering most of what you have paid if your plans change. So, to me, this looks like a reasonable selection of return fares. In addition to this, everyone can buy railcards giving either 25 or 50% off all tickets, either 1st or 2nd class. So, overall, that makes it a choice of 24 tickets if my arithmetic is correct.
While what is being spoken off here does not sound good, one would need to see what the proposals are exactly and when they would become operative. It could also be that the next Labour government will reverse any extensive increases/changes to railway fares which the Conservatives make.
While what is being spoken off here does not sound good, one would need to see what the proposals are exactly and when they would become operative. It could also be that the next Labour government will reverse any extensive increases/changes to railway fares which the Conservatives make.
Is a premium for period returns actually appropriate? Does a period return cost the railway more to provide?
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I couldn't see Labour making structural changes, as the proposed structure makes sense. The actual fare levels can be flexed by flexing subsidy.
robert thomas
Member
Now that we are told that commuters have been lost forever what is the point of peak/off peak fares particularly given that apparently in many cases the first off peak trains out of London in the evening are much more crowded than the peak ones.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
DB's system, if I recall, is thus:
Super Sparpreis - very low Advance type ticket which is not changeable or refundable
Sparpreis - same as our Advances but I think refundable against a fee
Flexpreis - full price single, valid by any train that day, but unlike our Anytimes the fare changes by day of the week. It also changes by train category, i.e. (I)RE/RB/D, IC, ICE.
I recall reading they are doing the same silly pseudocompulsory reservation nonsense we are, and people are similarly working round it by buying Flexpreis on another train.
There are no returns now other than international tickets I believe. Regional and Verbund ("PTE") offerings vary and are set by the region or Verbund. They also have the two levels of Bahncard, plus 1st and 2nd class.
Commuters haven't gone, although the balance has changed. Not sure you could get rid of peak pricing, but certainly worth having a review of the times.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
There's a fairly good argument for extending weekend pricing and reduced timetables to Monday and Friday, and only running peak extras and peak fares Tuesday to Thursday. Avanti already has no peak restrictions on a Friday.
Fridays are an interesting one because the morning peak is very quiet but later into the afternoon and evening it gets very busy. There's a good argument for a 'leisure peak' pricing now on some routes (London-Birmingham the obvious ones).
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Problem is that'll drive custom away, as it's expensive already without charging Anytime type fares on Friday/Sunday evenings. A weekend away doesn't really flex time-wise, particularly not on the Friday. I don't doubt TOCs would love to do that, though.
Current off peak walk up non-WCML fares (WCML are generally about 10% cheaper for historical reasons) are as high as I'd pay for Standard class leisure travel. Much higher and I'd drive.
Haywain
Veteran Member
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That is a major part of the reason that Avanti and LNER removed most Friday restrictions - to spread the loadings.
heathrowrail
Member
You seem to be forgetting like every other damn person who keeps spouting this line we aren't European! France & Germany rail networks are completely different to ours, you're better off comparing our network with Australia quite frankly.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Our network and the way it is operated is very, very similar to Germany's, though a bit more capital-centric and slightly higher frequencies. As a result both countries' fare systems have developed in very similar ways.
Haywain
Veteran Member
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And yet, strangely, when people make comparisons of pricing on railways they never seem to mention how Australian railways are priced - it's always France and Germany.
On what planet is it "simpler" force people into faffing about buying two (more expensive) tickets instead of one?? As for possibly needed to wait until you get back to the station to buy the return leg, utter unacceptable. Why do we have a DfT intent on making the railway as unattractive as possible? The more I think about this the more angry it make me. It's disgusting.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
It's simpler because the vast number of people purchase from online journey planners, and it eases the way those work.
You may not purchase in this way, I'm guessing you like to purchase a return from the booking office, perhaps? But this is now a minority pursuit, and the system goes with the majority.
DynamicSpirit
Established Member
The process of physically buying a ticket at the ticket office won't be any simpler - it'll stay roughly the same in most cases, but that's not the point. The point is that it becomes simpler (a) to choose which fare you want and know that you are getting the best fare, and (b) to make a journey that isn't a simple out-and-back journey: Currently, those journeys are in most cases impossible to make without paying completely exorbitant/uneconomic fares.
And it is unlikely that the tickets will be significantly more expensive - except in a few edge cases. Sounds to me like you're getting angry and disgusted at something that's entirely a product of your own imagination, and not remotely connected to anything likely to happen in the real World.
Are you suggesting that off-peak fares should increase to allow lower peak fares? In part this is one of the things 'feared' under this proposal.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
No, they really aren’t so different. In any case, why does the *network* dictate that you have to have an open return ticket? You’ve not explained any of your reasoning.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
As WCML Off Peaks are about 10% cheaper than other routes for a given distance, and their Anytimes are also the most swingeing, I could see rebalancing these as making sense. Probably not other routes.
Not sure how it does that. How the hell can you have a transport system that doesn't offer return tickets? This system has been perfectly fine for ~150 years, but now, for no good reason, they want to fiddle with it. They can't leave anything alone can they. How about not fixing what aint broke?
Oh get real. Do you really think they are going to start selling Single tickets at half the price? Like hell they will.
And we need to change the whole system to suit 1% of journeys?
This is going to lead to people being inflicted with penalty fares and that's a fact.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
This sort of objection I don’t understand - nobody has seriously ever argued on this forum that the traditional western European fare structure is Byzantine, more complex, less intuitive or less passenger friendly. This is only wheeled out when it’s convenient.
London has one. It is totally accepted and works very well for almost all users.
Advance fares have been on this basis for nearly 20 years on some routes. They also work well.
This is not new. It is just a progression of a change that has been evolving over the last 20 years, which is seen to be popular by many people.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
That wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing. The peak and shoulder peak have been problematic for several years now with passenger demand on many lines heavily clustered around the first off peak train.
Who says it "ain't broke"? People make comments about the need for fares reform all the time. Now it might cost some people more and some people less but that is the nature of reform.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
I don’t know, ask the Germans for example. Most systems in Western Europe don’t have open return tickets.
Really. London has Oyster. Elsewhere does not.
I'll tell you something that happened to me in the 1990s. I wanted to make a return Tube journey, but the ticket office would only sell me the out part of my journey, despite previously being able to buy both at the same time. This left me with only half of what I actually needed. On my return journey I completely forgot that I needed another ticket, because I was so used to being able to by a return. The result being I didn't remember until I was actually on the train. This is going to get people into trouble through no fault of their own.
With Advance fares you have to plan your journey with minute detail. That's we want for even the most basic of rail journeys, is it?
Need reform why? No they don't.
I don't care what the Germans have.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Eh? The Tube is (and even was in the 90s) almost completely gated. What station was this?
There's also nothing saying, if you know the date of your return, you can't buy two tickets at the same time. TVMs would need to change a bit (though it seems to me quite obvious that a "day return" button could just offer two singles), but at a booking office (in so far as they still exist) it'd go something like:
"Return to X please"
"We don't do returns any more, but I can sell you two singles. When are you coming back?"
"Oh, that's a bit weird. OK, then, I'm coming back today"
"That'll be <too much>*"
"OK, cheers" <taps card>
<hands over two singles, functionally identical to a day return>
* That was a jape on railway fares generally, not the specific ones arising from this.
No, but nobody is proposing that. The proposal seems to be what LNER were trialling, i.e. two levels of walk-up single, Anytime and Off Peak (I suspect the "Super" would be dropped once this was introduced everywhere), plus Advances if you want.
Amersham or one of those stations in that area.
Two levels of more expensive tickets than you can get now.....
Why anybody thinks this sham is necessary or a good plan I have absolutely no idea.
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